3 months in - too much indignation

I don't know if I used it before or not, but the phrase Shafer 5 is really rubbing me wrong now and here's why:

All this shafer 5 and in-your-face stuff is a bit much. It's getting laid on so thick so often, I'm starting to feel like a revolutionary for not liking the game. I don't like feeling like a revolutionary. We here on the forums are people who like Civ series. We're here because we like the Civilization franchise. We are Civ Fans. We can agree on that I hope.

Coming on here and browbeating anyone who dares not despise the game as much as you do really isn't productive. We're talking about smiles and frowns here, not nuclear de-armament. Let's step back from the ledge a little. The rabble ends up being destructive and not constructive.

Put out some new ideas on why it's a bad game. I think I am out of ideas. It's been three months and the "I'm so indignant," thing is wearing out for me. I am running out of indignation! Three months is enough indignation for me. We need to set a new tone.

Use your energies for some productive work. The Shafer5 thing is worn out and is a turnoff to anything of value you might have to say. He left, we all got to move on. The guy had some ideas and follow through, and he was hired to see it through. I didn't know him on the forums, but he should be welcomed back. It's not fair to the franchise if he is marginalized and shut out. He has years of experience, and for a longterm series that is important in terms of having been down a lot of the roads that current and future Civ developers will be on.

What Shafer started may lead to the best Civ game ever - through learning what works when developing a Civ game and what doesn't. What parts of 1UPT are fun in Civ, what aren't? It took 2 months (as far as I could tell) for someone to put 1UPT and road maintenance as being counterproductive and working against one another. It seems obvious now, but it took time for someone to write it down. What about hexes is good, what's bad? Where's the middleground for these ideas?

Even if the game came off flawlessly, it's still a beta, because civ fans have never had a Civ - 1UPT, hex game. Sure, some things should have been picked up and worked on before release, but regardless, it would take time and gameplay from civfans to figure out what "feels right" and what doesn't.

Hopefully someone on development team will remain to chalkboard things that went well and things that went poorly in the whole development process. I watched some of that Soren Jonsen Civ IV DVD and that may not have been watched by the development team before they started. Maybe they should document something similar for Civ V, for internal use, and compare the two and just catalog them so they have a record of WTH happened during the making of each iteration. There needs to be some bureaucratic/institutional memory for a series like Civilization.

The publishers should do some soul-searching as to who their target market is for Civ. It's easier to keep a market they already have, than try to catch a new market each time they release the same game. Make a different game and call it "Earth Vol. 1, by the makers of Civilization" if you want to get a new market. If you want to save on development, sell the rights to civfanatics and just collect modest royalties. We can run Civilization like the Packers. Don't sell an unpolished game to a loyal fanbase and say "Well, you can mod it to your liking and we can sell your mods in our expansions." You need to work with us, not against us. Share the wealth. You've got a chance to do something new and bold that will win gamer goodwill and keep you from having to maintain an aging series.

If you've got ideas on how to avoid games like Civ V being produced by Firaxis, let's hear them. It's my opinion that we need to start being more forward looking and less petulant about what should have been.

(Maybe "Civ 5 - What went wrong?" needs its own sub-forum, so we can discuss things - that some of us feel is now canon - in a constructive way. Like my post for example isn't a "Civ 5 is bad" rant that belongs in the rants thread, but it assumes quite a lot)

joyous_gard said:

I don't know if I used it before or not, but the phrase Shafer 5 is really rubbing me wrong now and here's why:

All this shafer 5 and in-your-face stuff is a bit much. It's getting laid on so thick so often, I'm starting to feel like a revolutionary for not liking the game. I don't like feeling like a revolutionary. We here on the forums are people who like Civ series. We're here because we like the Civilization franchise. We are Civ Fans. We can agree on that I hope.

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I'm sorry I didn't read your whole post, but I'm getting tired. I did want to reply to this though:

I don't know if the term "revolutionary" really applies to how I feel, but I'm definitely disappointed with the game, and that definitely makes me feel bad. I really hope the series turns around, but I don't suspect the devs will be able to do it with 5.

I definitely can understand the frustration getting in the way of constructive criticism.

But as customers, we already paid for the product. Some paid more, some paid less, doesn't really matter.

Upon product purchase, Firaxis or 2K has almost no legal obligation to continue support of the product beyond Multiplayer hosting. Basically, they can be gone with the wind if they wished to.

When purchasing a car, and find your gas pedal placed at the back seat instead of the driver's seat, most people won't go:

"Oh, hey, I find it a little inconvenient to reach the gas pedal, could you kindly place it right there? A 3-month wait? No problem! I'll take a cab in the meantime!"

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More like:

"GET THIS FIXED OR GIVE ME A REFUND, YOU'RE SIMPLY WASTING MY TIME!!!"

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With Steam, you can't get a refund so that will explain a lot of the negativity going around.

Dumbed Down Consolization Shafer 0.05 needs to get all the indignation it deserves. We are all victims of leechy bloodsuckers from Firaxis and 2k, we are the people who stand against corporate thuggery (and releasing Dumbed Down Consolization Shafer 0.05 is a prime example of thuggery).

I would like to see a 2k / Firaxis representative coming here and apologize to the whole fan base on behalf of the franchise and then ask for our inputs for future franchise.

Until that happens, I am going to be a very angry FORMER civ fan and a very disgruntled paying customer and continue to do my part in educating future consumer away from the franchise and do all sort of brow beating.

And I will do this for my own entertainment, so I won't get tired of it.

I can say this much: May the civVI(the best of five and foure put together) come out long before I die. Amen

joyous_gard said:

I am running out of indignation! Three months is enough indignation for me. We need to set a new tone.

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Stockholm syndrome

–noun Psychiatry.

An emotional attachment to a captor formed by a hostage as a result of continuous stress, dependence, and a need to cooperate for survival.

Put out some new ideas on why it's a bad game. I think I am out of ideas.

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It didn't have enough time for completion with system and beta testing. This is the root of everything else. Problems in testing are much easier to fix than problems in a released game since the original design team can put smart changes into the system at any level.

Logs and documentation were rushed through with very little detail. Combat balance was wrong. The interface is still poor. Graphics are mediocre and not clear. Simplification has led to dumbed down strategy, the UN being a prime example. The diplomacy is still bizarre. There's no solution yet for 1upt frustrations. Combat AI is poor or shocking. The game scales badly in most respects, whether it's army size, map size, progress through the ages, empire size, policies, or almost anything else. The simulation of empire building is broken with poor mechanics, such as archers shooting further than riflemen.

The worst crime though is that the game isn't fun to play. Too much in the game penalizes players for positive play. Just when you should be enjoying capturing an enemy city you inevitably feel that you could probably conquer any number more cities against a woeful defence but the happiness disaster will drag you down. Even when you win the whole game you get a pathetic congratulatory message, leaving you wondering why you bothered playing at all. It just isn't rewarding.

JohnnyW said:

I don't know if the term "revolutionary" really applies to how I feel, but I'm definitely disappointed with the game, and that definitely makes me feel bad. I really hope the series turns around, but I don't suspect the devs will be able to do it with 5.

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Yeah I am disappointed too. I'm just frustrated by all the "Shafer 5" shenanigans. For example, I might write something like "You know, moving units is really tough in this game." or, "I hate having to balance smiles and frowns throughout the game," or "the user interface is clunky," "burdening maintenance costs makes the game less fun and its tough to right the ship once it's sinking in the red."

Then all of the sudden some guy comes on there and is like "We are not going to take it anymore! Shafer 5 must end now. Say NO to Shafer 5. We have seen the game and we are not happy. All these fanboys are living in the past man and we are going to set them straight."

So now, because I wrote I don't like unit movement or am disappointed overall with the game, I feel like I am in the 'nutjob camp' of video game extremists. It knocks all conversation off center and we lose focus on what the actual issues are.

We're not protesting the IMF, have a little perspective on the forum you are posting in. In the meantime, all the angry gamer posts serve to polarize the forums and divert from anything meaningful that may get honed in on. You know, some people are Shafer friends. Now they are hurt and insulted because you keep attacking the guy personally. Because of the extremists, maybe they will choose not to contribute to the game anymore and we are losing Civ resources and ideas. One thing the game doesn't need less of is resources and ideas.

Maybe I just need to use my ignore button more. I think that is the solution. I also like my idea of a subforum "Civ 5 - What Went Wrong?" It won't do much to eliminate the nutjob extremist posts but it will organize some common thread themes a little better.

Eh. I think you guys are posting in the wrong forum. This is General Discussion.

Try here if you dont want general discussions, but rather work on ideas, suggestions and development :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=119

Note : I'm not trying to discuss that this thread discussing whether discussing should be discussed in general discussion or discussed elsewhere cannot be discussed in general discussion.

The game is crap.

Its major concepts are horribly flawed. The execution of them is pathetic. Its still buggy and simply does not work for many people. It was designed to appeal to a "wider fanbase," unfortunately, this market only exists in a marketing execs head at 2K.

So, Panzer General 5 gets hated on. I`ll spend no more money on anything by 2k, as they can`t even be bothered to respond to customer complaints.

Put out some new ideas on why it's a bad game.

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And this is the problem.

Totally unproductive, and just reinforces exactly what you claim you're against (endless whining).

But as I tried to inform two post up, that there actually is a forum for those who wants to discuss productive things. So to complain that General Discussion is unproductive is more saying that people cannot discuss General Discussion in General Discussion.

I'm reminded of an old joke.

Guy gets stuck on a long plane flight with an elderly lady, who proceeds to talk his ear off the whole way about how wonderful her grandchildren are.
Shortly before landing, she pauses, and says:
"Well, now its your turn. What do YOU think of my grandchildren?"

Point of story: its not really interesting to keep hearing about your grandchildren.
Isn't 3 months enough time to express your outrage that the game isn't what you wanted it to be?
Either move on to something else, or work on something constructive.

I'm not saying if you want to complain about the game that you can't do it.
I'm just saying: its really really boring for everyone else.

Valid points here, but I think you guys are talking to a pretty limited group of people. Most of the disappointed fans aren't so outraged and indignant that we just spam hate threads everywhere or attack fans of the game or resort to childish insults directed at Shafer or Firaxis. (Personally I don't think I've used "Shafer 5" myself, b/c I think it's a little silly to single out Jon like he's the root of all evil or something. I did think "Shafer Rating" was a humorous way to refer to global happiness, because it parodies the whole concept as having anything to do with happiness in the first place. But I digress...)

I do think it's constructive to voice your dissatisfaction, but I think you can get in your own way by being so over-the-top about it that nobody hears you. You get tuned out if you can't moderate your tone. We're all on the same side here, as much as we keep trying to divide ourselves against each other.

That said, "submit constructive suggestions" is great if you want to do so, and if that makes you feel good about it, go for it. I don't think we're all obligated to try and fix Civ5 for Firaxis, though. I bought a product and I think that product is pretty bad.

I'm not prepared to just shrug that off and say "oh well, I'll help fix your game for you, thanks for this sixty-dollar box of potential, Firaxis!"

I know some folks here may feel so much loyalty to Firaxis and the Civ series that they have no problem with that - and who really are grateful to Firaxis for selling us all of this "potential." That's fine. I don't personally feel that way; I'm a passionate fan of the Civ franchise, but I'm not so fanatically loyal to its developers that I'm going to let them off the hook for a shoddy release. That doesn't mean insulting them with childish remarks on an internet forum, but it does mean expecting some accountability from Firaxis.

My point was
No one forces anyone to read a forum. If you dont want to read a post or a thread : Ignore it
If one is tired of reading about people complaining there are a lot of alternatives to General Discussion.
A lot of people are unhappy about the game. Maybe they got it in x-mas present and just found out the game sucked. They come here and post their discontent and are being told : Argh you whiner/hater. We heard this a million times. Come with some creative ideas how to change the game instead.
If any one is tired of reading General Discussions, then my best advice is to avoid General Discussions. There are plenty of other Civ5 forums.

BUT. I think its very important that people let their voices be heard. Even if its just a : Civ5 Suckz (or a Civ5 Rulez). That way the developers can get a feeling which way to go next.

BTW. Your example of planetravel is as bad as the comparison between buying a car and a computer game. But lets continue on that road. You walk into a bus and sit down. A couple of seats away there is a couple of teengirls talking about how great LadyGaga is. Do you :
A. Ignore their discussion.
B. Get out of the bus in rage.
C. Tell them you heard it before and ask them to shut up.

Most definitely C

joyous_gard said:

I don't know if I used it before or not, but the phrase Shafer 5 is really rubbing me wrong

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Some new forum members go a bit too far, this forum was a nicer place until few years ago.

What you mean "few years ago"? As in since civ5 was anounced/released or earlier? and I also disagree with "Shafer 5", I have no problems with the guy. he tried his berst

Ddude97 said:

What you mean "few years ago"? As in since civ5 was anounced/released or earlier? and I also disagree with "Shafer 5", I have no problems with the guy. he tried his berst

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Indeed. Our displeasement with the game is making some of us criticize Shafer that tried to implement what he thought it would make civ a better game.

It went wrong? IMO yes. Can it be solved? Maybe, only time will tell. And customers opinion is a variable that will help the developers make a better game, if they really are willing to.