The longhouse doesn't have the workshop bonus

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WeaselSlapper

Prince
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Mar 16, 2009
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I don't know if this is a bug or is as designed, but the longhouse seems to replace the workshop. If that's the case shouldn't it still give the +20% bonus when building buildings? If not in my current game as the Iroquois I cannot build any workshops in my cities.
 
i'd guess this is by design, the +1 :c5production: per forest tile is pretty strong
 
This is clearly not a bug, but by design, for balance reasons.

There's no reason stuff unique to a civ has to be strictly better than their non-unique counterpart. The Arabian camel archer, for instance, is better than the knight in some ways (can bombard) and worse in others (weaker when attacked and cannot take cities) because it is ranged.

The longhouse is already usually better than the workshop; +1 hammer per forest is better than a flat 20% for buildings only, especially considering where the Iroquois tend to spawn (in wooded areas). Having the 20% on top of the +1 hammer is unbalanced.

Also, this is not new to 1.0.1.141; the longhouse has never, to the best of my knowledge, given 20% building production, not in the current version or any earlier versions.
 
EndoConvert said:
This is clearly not a bug, but by design, for balance reasons.

There's no reason stuff unique to a civ has to be strictly better than their non-unique counterpart. The Arabian camel archer, for instance, is better than the knight in some ways (can bombard) and worse in others (weaker when attacked and cannot take cities) because it is ranged.

The longhouse is already usually better than the workshop; +1 hammer per forest is better than a flat 20% for buildings only, especially considering where the Iroquois tend to spawn (in wooded areas). Having the 20% on top of the +1 hammer is unbalanced.

Also, this is not new to 1.0.1.141; the longhouse has never, to the best of my knowledge, given 20% building production, not in the current version or any earlier versions.
Click to expand...

This makes the longhouse totally useless if you don't use the start bias or if you don't get a really good starting location. For the game I'm in now I got a weak start based on the bias and my capital only has two forests and most of my other cities only have 1-2 forests. Granted early the extra 1-2 productions is usually better than the 20%, but later in the game it's next to meaningless.

I would much rather prefer if it were an additional building (like the Burial Tomb) rather than a replacement for the workshop. I also think it's odd that the Civilopedia doesn't mention that it's a replacement for workshop like all the other Unique Buildings do.
 
WeaselSlapper said:
This makes the longhouse totally useless if you don't use the start bias or if you don't get a really good starting location. For the game I'm in now I got a weak start based on the bias and my capital only has two forests and most of my other cities only have 1-2 forests. Granted early the extra 1-2 productions is usually better than the 20%, but later in the game it's next to meaningless.

I would much rather prefer if it were an additional building (like the Burial Tomb) rather than a replacement for the workshop. I also think it's odd that the Civilopedia doesn't mention that it's a replacement for workshop like all the other Unique Buildings do.
Click to expand...

yes, it requires good positioning to be useful... i'd just restart if i weren't near forest as hiawatha.

egypt's burial tomb replaces the temple. i verified you cannot build temple as egypt.
the civilopedia lists "Replaces" for both of them in the lower left of their pages... i believe unique units/buildings always replace.
 
WeaselSlapper said:
This makes the longhouse totally useless if you don't use the start bias or if you don't get a really good starting location. For the game I'm in now I got a weak start based on the bias and my capital only has two forests and most of my other cities only have 1-2 forests. Granted early the extra 1-2 productions is usually better than the 20%, but later in the game it's next to meaningless.
Click to expand...

If you're Iroquois, you should be settling toward forests to take advantage of their UA anyway. This makes the longhouse better than the workshop, early game or late game.

WeaselSlapper said:
I would much rather prefer if it were an additional building (like the Burial Tomb) rather than a replacement for the workshop. I also think it's odd that the Civilopedia doesn't mention that it's a replacement for workshop like all the other Unique Buildings do.
Click to expand...

ALL civs with unique buildings have the unique building replacing a normal one. The Burial Tomb is not an "additional building" but a "replacement building": it replaces the Temple, just like the Longhouse replaces the Workshop, or the Floating Gardens replaces the Water Mill. And check the Civilopedia again. The entry for Longhouse reads:

Civilopedia said:
Strategy: The Longhouse is the Iroquois unique building, replacing the Workshop.
Click to expand...
 
The longhouse and burial tomb should work as their replacements, workshop and temple.
So, a quick change in civ5buildings.xml file and problem solved.

I'm done with the dumb rules made by Firaxis.
 
Tatran said:
The longhouse and burial tomb should work as their replacements, workshop and temple.
So, a quick change in civ5buildings.xml file and problem solved.

I'm done with the dumb rules made by Firaxis.
Click to expand...

Um, that they're different is why they're UNIQUE buildings. Is it also "dumb" that civs have unique abilities and unique units?
 
When a unique building is a replacement of a regular building it must have the same abilities otherwise it isn't a replacement.
Also, these are the only two unique buildings which come with a penalty compared to other unique buildings.
And implementing penalties trying to keep balance is always bad.
 
EndoConvert said:
If you're Iroquois, you should be settling toward forests to take advantage of their UA anyway. This makes the longhouse better than the workshop, early game or late game.
Click to expand...

Overall the longhouse is only a mediocre improvement over the workshop, and is virtually useless if you disable the start bias and even if you leave it on you still need a good random start. It would be more balanced to have it cost the same 100 hammers (currently costs 80) as the workshop and give the forest bonus as an addition to the 20% building increase.
 
This change makes the iroquois comparatively better at building units and wonders, as opposed to buildings.

By the way, note that after steam power lumbermill/long house forest will give 1F 4H. Compare this to a mine which gives 3H and you see significant improvement. This significant boost to base production more than corrects for the lack of workshop bonus, in most cases.

Also, since the Iroquois are biased to start in forest, I don't see why you only have 1-2 forest tiles, unless you went and cut them all down.
 
Smote said:
This change makes the iroquois comparatively better at building units and wonders, as opposed to buildings.

By the way, note that after steam power lumbermill/long house forest will give 1F 4H. Compare this to a mine which gives 3H and you see significant improvement. This significant boost to base production more than corrects for the lack of workshop bonus, in most cases.

Also, since the Iroquois are biased to start in forest, I don't see why you only have 1-2 forest tiles, unless you went and cut them all down.
Click to expand...

It does make them better with units and wonders, but not much. And combine that with the Iroquois weak UU and weak trait and I think the Iroquois would be much better off with a really good UB instead of just a mediocre one.

I didn't cut any down (I almost never do, it'll take me forever to get the chop 1,000 forests achievement). With the start bias on I started near coastal floodplains and only 2 forests in my capital. On top of that the start bias for the Iroquois also has an early exploration disadvantage because the Warrior you start with moves so slow though the forests, building a scout first is pretty much a must. Also the start bias usually only has enough of a range to give you only a few cities with a decent number of forests, and forget about the benefit in any city you take from the AI.
 
This is why forests and jungles should spread the way they did in Civ 4, without having to download a mod to do it. Or at least let workers plant forests after researching an appropriate tech, like was done in Civ 3.
 
Workshop now increases PRODUCTION by 15%. Yet the long house is unchanged. A under the radar Iroquois nerf? Seems to mean in all but the most forested cities the workshop is better then the longhouse.
 
I really hope they get these kinds of things fixed soon so I can start playing Civ 5 again.
 
i find the longhouse ends up generally providing more production than a workshop.. though i think now workshop is only 10% extra production anyhow, so the longhouse losing the 10% isn't that big of a deal. i haven't tried yet but im thinking about how good it might be to throw trading posts over all the forest tiles, farm everything else. it'd be like having the benefits of lumbermills + trading posts in one tile (of course without the lumbermill modifiers with later techs, but still the trading post modifiers).
 
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