Immortal University 52 - Sitting Bull

TheMeInTeam

If A implies B...
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
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Hello all and welcome to the Immortal University! This series was started a long time ago to move a group of the forum's players to the next level. I'm the host alongside Kossin (who said he'll post some of these too). Are you ready for the U?

This is beatdown #52 on the AI, in case you're keeping track.

We will uphold the university's traditions...smacking down the hapless AI!

Our leader this time around:

Civ4ScreenShot0000.jpg


Sitting Bull. If nothing else, we've massed defensive overkill. Early war pressure should NOT be a problem for us with CG III archers and dog soldiers to ruin the AI's day. On the negative side, we don't have much economy going for us...EXCEPT PHI of course, which is actually solid. We're not running a good HoF leader, but he should be flexible enough.

Here's the start:

Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg


Well, we do start with fishing...phishing...and it looks like that's a good thing. Calender looks enjoyable too.

It's still a random fractal map with random opposition.

Huts and Events are off. If you don't like it, just plop 4 warriors somewhere in world builder and give yourself 60 gold to simulate huts, and just delete your capitol and put 3 archers there to simulate events.

Copy and Paste of the doctrine:

To play, just extract the WB save file into your worldbuilder saves directory, then play it. Use custom scenario if you want some extra settings to tickle your fancy. This series was designed for people learning immortal, so most people here will be at that level or trying to attain it, although deity players are welcome also. Hell, if you want to play this on NOBLE, go ahead, but I'm not peeling off the AI bonuses. The intention of this and any other game thread I post is to get better. Play whatever level you need in order to improve. Just remember, there are immortal bonuses and that's not going to change unless you WB edit it.

If you are aspiring IMM+, try to remember to add archery back to the barbs in WB. Every time you don't, a deity AI will kill a kitten, although there are a lot of kittens so it's not the end of the world if you prefer easymode barbs .

I do request people to list their difficulty and speed. In terms of updates, well nobody follows that anyway. Post in the manner you feel comfortable. Typical comparison dates are 1 AD, liberalism, and victory/defeat, as well as any major events. If in doubt, go with that.

The save!

View attachment AutoSave_Initial_BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave

View attachment IU 52 Sitting Bull.zip

The initial autosave for those who want to duck having to add barbs or possibly use proper colors. It's IMM/Norm no huts/events.
 
interesting...settling on the sugar was my first instinct thought too.

@TMIT do you plan to host this game as Let's play?
 
Thoughts on Settling
  1. We could settle north with the possibility of gaining another fish, but with the certainty of losing a grassland hill.
  2. It looks like there's land (maybe an island) north of our continent.
  3. So if there is fish up there a city, on that land can claim it and we get to keep our grassland hill without running the risk of losing a green hill for nothing.
  4. As such I will settle in place and start on a workboat.

As to techs I have no idea. Important things look like
  • Sailing: Great Lighthouse, two more food
  • BW: Lots of forests to chop
  • Archery: We probably won't be getting any strategic resources in our capital by the look of it and we are protective after all.

I'll most likely go Mining, BW, Sailing, Hunting, Archery. Should I be more worried about barbs and try to get Archery earlier? I guess we can wait and see how easy our territory is to fog bust. It doesn't look to bad since we're in a "corner".
 
:mad:


Spoiler :
Effin Pacal is one of my favorite leaders to play but bugs the ever living
dogsh##t out of me as an AI. Freakin' bahstahd founded every GD religion and beat by one turn to Lib even though I had Edu way before him. Gets Lib in what seems like 2 turns and he only has like a 1/2 a city to his name (slight exaggeration). aaaargh!:mad::mad::mad::mad: I was just start to pull away in this game

Of course, it's really my fault but it amazes me sometimes how these tiny civs can tech Lib so quick. I can probably still win this easily - diplo is in the bag - but had planned to go culture until Pacal founded every GD religion. I'm not kidding - he found 5 religions with guys like BK, Ram and Gilgs on the map. Had a GS just ready to pop for Philo. Of course, I expect Pacal to peace vassal any turn now as usual - he's weak and small as heck (okay...breath lymond...breath)


GLH

Spoiler :
I think I saw one of the earliest dates for this wonder. I knew somewhat like Ram was on the map when it went. I had planned for it but it went before I could even get the techs.
 
Settling 1N is tempting, although you'll lose a hill for an extra base food.
You might also lose what could be a Strategic Resource to the SE + S of the Settler.

You might as well send the Warrior 1SE onto the Plains Hills square just to see if there is a non-hidden Resource on the square SE + S of the Settler.


Settling 1S is also a reasonable possibility if the Warrior reveals anything interesting.
 
We're not running a good HoF leader, but he should be flexible enough.
I had to check this claim. There are a lot of below-monarch games using Sitting Bull. Many are on a Great Plains map. Guess the VCs.

Edit: I downloaded this and got sidetracked trying to figure out the "Anti Rush Cow" name. No clue.
 
I had to check this claim. There are a lot of below-monarch games using Sitting Bull. Many are on a Great Plains map. Guess the VCs.
Time Victories? AKA "hold the fort until the bitter end"? :lol:


EDIT: The first screenshot, showing Sitting Bull, is pretty funny-looking: "Halt! Come no further or else your armies shall be beaten to a pulp!" Or perhaps: "Talk to the hand because my dogs don't give a darn!"
 
SIP looks like the best bet. We have some GP potential here as well as some production, but I'll probably move the capital to some better Bureacracy site if I find one. Tech path looks to be BW then possibly Archery if we have Shakas romping around.
 
a) I wouldn't consider settling 1N :
- Less land tiles
- Probability to lose a hill and not gain another one

If you have 2 high food tiles + a 3 food city tile and only 2 grassland hills for production... you will be lacking production badly.
Bad point : the warrior has no means to reveal tiles for the 1N location.


b) 1S I would consider :
- Less water tiles
- swap 1 grassland hill for 1 plains hill
- possibility to send the warrior on the plains hill to get a better idea of the surroundings (more hills ?)
- You can mine a hill without knowledge of Bronse Working...


c) Settling in place is ok :
- Lots of food
- Decent production but not stellar
 
I played through a bit.

Spoiler :

I settled 1N and started scouting south. When I saw all the coastal land, I decided to go GLH (wonders were going slow too). I then proceeded to rex rather seneslessly, just spamming every coastal spot that looked decent. The AI tech pace on this map is horribly slow:

(techs at 1AD)
Civ4ScreenShot0013-2.jpg


Here's my empire at 1AD:
Civ4ScreenShot0014-2.jpg


Yes, that's 9 cities without a single cottage :lol: Gotta love abusive wonders.

 
First time playing in a thread like this! Usually I play on Emperor but I tried this on Immortal. Criticism and advice very welcome!

To 1 AD!
Spoiler :


rig7qe.png

Started with a workboat then worker, headed toward Bronze Working. The Native American military was wiped out by animals in the treacherous southern peninsula. I went Sailing/Masonry for the Great Lighthouse but failed to get it, the gold financing research that took me to Animal Husbandry-Wheel-Pottery-Writing while Poverty Point was founded to establish a western border.



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The barbs caused me some grief slowing expansion and forcing inefficient whips. Should've been out spawnbusting earlier! I did have quite a bit of luck defending my flatland cities from assaults by Archers using single Warriors! Fate truly smiles upon the Native American people.




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Mound City was founded in 1320 BC for double banana/corn/cow. I've been using it for production but once the bananas are online I might make it a GP farm. For now it pumps Dog Soldiers but I remain significantly behind the AIs in military.



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Chaco Canyon claims fish, horse, and wheat, and will be a decent production site once established.



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I just barely beat Charlemagne to the Masa Verde area. The city will be squeezed as heck but it definitely gets the gems. Pacal took the gold and Charlie took the corn but I went Totem Pole/Library ASAP up there so maybe someday it'll steal those tiles. Even if not, it's still got gems and the flood plains can feed them even if cottaged, which I get to work on.



ddfl3t.png

250 BC Ptolemy is born. I don't really have a stellar commerce site yet (though Poverty Point is slowly growing cottages) so I just settle him in Cahokia. Research is directed towards Aesthetics, not Archery, and it looks like I'll get there in time to trade it around.


The world as known to Native America at 1 AD.
4kbnys.png

I'm about to settle on the elephants to ensure their future allegiance to Native America, and I've got a galley slowly making its way around the painfully long southern peninsula so I can settle the fish/clam island -- hopefully beat Pacal there! My neighbours Charlie and Pacal are Buddhist and I sure wish I could switch into it. After Aesthetics I guess I'll target Calender and Currency. Hopefully I can trade for at least one of them.
 
To 450 AD:
Spoiler :

Settled 1S, I lose 2 coast tiles and grassland forest and gain plains forest+plains hill+desert tile. The extra production turned out to be VERY useful and the desert tile... turns out I'm an omniscient mastermind cause it had Iron on it! :lol:

Tech path: Mining-BW-TW (that was a mistake)-sailing-masonry (you know what comes next)

Build order: worker (farms rice then chops 2 forests for...)-2 workboats-worker-dog soldier- settler-lighthouse-GLH.

2nd city went to the north on coast for clams+bananas. It's pretty marginal but I needed coastal and wanted to restrict Pacal's space. Got GLH in 1560BC and could rex indefinately from then on (GM was settled in 750BC).

My third city was founded aggresively to the north next to the golds. It needs floodplain farm+2 grass farms to feed itself but completely blocked off pacal (he's stuck at 4 cities). This caused him to wonder whore and soon those wonders will be mine!!! He was even nice enough to supply a missionary to pop my borders.

From there I rexed to 6 cities funded by GLH plus the golds. Teched aesth-lit-music (free GA) and got everything I need in trades. I ended up nabbing the Glib (normally I don't like it without marble or Ind but the cap had good hammers so I chopped like crazy in outer radius and got it (had to do a 4 pop whip though as rammy had had lit for a while by then). I also got good fail gold from SoZ+SP.

Then a second wave of expansion as I nabbed some barb cities with swords (one is at 9 exp, should be 10 soon) and backfilled some land after blocking it off. Got the island city too, I think the SW tile is best as it can share the cap's seafood if it needs. Soon i'll be up to 11 or 12 cities, that's basically game over.

I've also gt 2GS'es alreadyfrom the cap , one academy+ philo bulb. I've had an intrepid workboat and warrior out doing some great scouting.

Diplomatically, I couldn't be in a better spot. Pacal got buddhism to me and charlie so I'm safe from my neighbours. Rammy spread hinduism to the rest, now charlie is distracted in a long war with sulei+giggles. Fave civic bonuses are also too easy this map HR for Pacal+Sulei+Giggles, OR for Rammy.

Pics:
Civ4ScreenShot0003.jpg

Getting the GLH, second city already founded.

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Third city blocks off Pacal to the north. 2 Barb cities (Which i later capture) + jungles blocks off charlie to the west. Plenty of room to expand.

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Sneaky Pacal tries to slip a settler through to the island. Not on my watch! (You can see I closed borders here, I was actually lucky to spot this one).

Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg

Capital whipped down to build Glib in 325AD.

Techwise, I've got a monopoly on both music and philo. My techrate is cruising despite massive expansion, will try to get steel from lib then take out Pacal then charlie.

This game has been a lot about applying techniques that more experienced players (often in this series) have shown me here. I've chopped and whipped earlier, harder and more mercilessly than ever before and am much, much better off for it. Instead of my usual cottages I've only built 2 and gone all farms and mines. I have to say that I'm absolutely loving this as it gives you so much more freedom with the whip I'm really seeing why people tell you that cottages are unnecessary and overrated. I'm also doing things like skipping military defense early on in inner cities which stay small due to the whip, I usually try to get some unit stationed in each city ASAP, but it can be a real waste of hammers that adds up big time. As a result of all this I'm in a fantastic position and victory is pretty much guaranteed from here.
 
@bobby
Spoiler :

1S is definitely a better spot for the capital. GLH basically breaks this map since almost all of the cities you will settle are going to be coastal anyways. I'm not sure the GL was worth whipping though. I was swimming in GPP in my game and I don't think the GL would have helped me much - although I'll admit that I did try building it in my production city since I had nothing better to do at the time.
 
@Shyhuhe
Spoiler :

Yeah I'm pretty happy with 1S although i'm not sure that it would have been worth the 1 turn delay in settling if not for the iron. I was hoping to be able to cruise to GL cause no one had lit but rammy got it quick. By then I figured I had so many hammers invested I may as well whip, also it would have been demoralizing to lose the race. Cap had so much food it only took 4 turns to grow back the 4 pop! I've been whipping like crazy so I figure GL will let me delay caste system for a while.

Our saves are very similar, probably due to the fact that this map lends itself to amssive expansion and the best way to fund that is GLH. Main difference is that you got less lucky with me with barb city spawns but to compensate your global techpace looks slower. Probably due to letting Pacal expand a bit out of the cage. It's gonna take you a while to get the food to feed the gems in Nacogdeches!

I'm curious to knw whether you considered settling Mound city 1SE to share food with the cap if need be? I'm a big fan of cities sharing food resources with the cap, although I suppose you had the issue of cultural pressre on the northern clams from pacal.
 
@bobby
Spoiler :

Pacal is totally cramped in my game - his 6th city is horrible (no resources, mostly brown). He's pretty much a non-factor. Naco was settled for the resources, as I settled it very late and was short workers. I didn't expect it to actually contribute anything to my empire other than 2 :) resources.

I assume you mean 1 SW for Mound City? The thought didn't cross my mind at the time -- I was whipping and growing GPP in Cahokia so it needed all the food it could use. Probably not a bad idea, but it'll still take forever to build the NE there unless you use whip overflow.

I've played on in my game and it's just a matter of stomping the remaining AI but Pacal went down VERY easy (capitulated after losing one city). I'll post the rest of my game tonight after I finish it. Sadly, I didn't build the NE at all in my game. I was pretty sloppy after liberalism since it was clear the game was won and I didn't feel like managing the whip.
 
Hello.

I'm a long-time lurker, and this is my first public game (and post). I've played through 1AD and my game looks very similar to shyuhe's, except the AI tech rate is much faster.

I plan on posting a report when I get to liberalism, but I have two questions:

1) do horse archers get the exp bonus from a totem pole?

2) in order for a GS to bulb lib, I need to have compass, and NOT have machinery, right?
 
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