Nobles' Club LXIX: Bismark of Germany

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Bismark of Germany, whom we last played in NC XLIII. The Germans start with Hunting and Mining.

• Traits: Bismark is Expansive and Industrious.
• The UB: The Assembly Plant, a Factory with two improvements: It can turn 4 citizens into Engineer specialists instead of 2, and can be built 50% faster with access to Coal. Like the UU, it is only of benefit later in the game.
  
  
  
  
  
• The UU: The Panzer, a Tank with +50% versus armored units; it can thus be quite powerful in the late game.
  
  

And the start:

Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:

There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do request that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards.

Tentative posting updates are suggested at:

4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other continent if applicable, etc)
1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)

Remember, these are only guidelines. What we really want are your thoughts as the game goes on, so if your strategies don't fall into line with those dates, feel free to adjust your reports accordingly.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps for most of the series, and all of you for playing.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 69 Bismark Noble" (or Monarch, if you want the AI to start with its usual Archery bonus tech, or Immortal for Archery+Hunting, or Deity to add Agriculture). This allows you to play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Note for those who hate goody huts: open the WB save file with a text editor and delete all lines that say

ImprovementType=IMPROVEMENT_GOODY_HUT

Click to expand...

Edit: upload of attachments works again, so I've eliminated the link to mediafire.

Reserved.

Subscribing! Never played as Bismarck -- that UB looks really, really powerful.

It's been a while, so I think I'll step down a level or two and play at Noble for this one.

I'll be using the BAT Mod 3.0.1 with the Modern Era Expansion (Shameless plug, yes. Deal with it. ) and playing at Epic speed.

Some thoughts on the lovely start:

There's gold in them thar hills! I think that I will be settling 1 South of the start position to capitalize on the gold and wheat, since there is no seafood. Since Bizzy starts with Mining, my first tech will be BW so that I can adopt slavery and whip a worker after my first warrior is finished. Then warrior>warrior>whip settler>warrior>whip worker>chop/whip Great Wall (I hate barbs).

I'll need roads to hook up the gold and the cows, so the wheel will be something of a priority, then agriculture>masonry>archery>AH. If I have some horses, I'll build a few chariots, and go shopping for a nice shiny city or two.

That should hold me for a little while. Happy Civving!

It looks like I'll be wonder whoring this game.

vhhawk said:

Subscribing! Never played as Bismarck -- that UB looks really, really powerful.

Click to expand...

It's quite good if you're planning on having a game go that long. Unfortunately, most games are well decided before that point. But it's a nice building to speed up an industrial war or if you botch the beginning and need some way to produce tanks. See ALC 30

Lemon Merchant said:

There's gold in them thar hills! I think that I will be settling 1 South of the start position to capitalize on the gold and wheat, since there is no seafood.

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Settling on the plains hill is incredibly powerful. It seems a shame to waste a turn moving away from a plains hill to a grassland hill. You'll be getting the Gold and Wheat in your cross anyway, so it's not like you're missing out on them.

Lemon Merchant said:

Since Bizzy starts with Mining, my first tech will be BW so that I can adopt slavery and whip a worker after my first warrior is finished. Then warrior>warrior>whip settler>warrior>whip worker>chop/whip Great Wall (I hate barbs).

Click to expand...

BW first I think will be a little slow. Getting enough food to whip the worker will take a while. That's an interesting choice though and it's definitely something to think about. If I did start that way I would instead have the first worker immediately chop another worker.

I don't think you need quite that many early warriors. We're nicely at the end of a peninsula so the scout should do just fine fog busting nearby.

Lemon Merchant said:

I'll need roads to hook up the gold and the cows, so the wheel will be something of a priority, then agriculture>masonry>archery>AH. If I have some horses, I'll build a few chariots, and go shopping for a nice shiny city or two.

Click to expand...

Wheel that soon is unnecessary. You won't be able to hook up the cows, until you have cows, which you need AH for. I'd move AH and Agriculture to before the wheel and continue as planned if you do want to go for the Great Wall.

Archon_Wing said:

It looks like I'll be wonder whoring this game.

Click to expand...

. I love my wonders. I'd prioritize the Great Lighthouse, Oracle (bulb Metal Casting), and the Colossus.


My start goes something like this:

Builds: worker -> warrior -> warrior -> worker -> settler -> lighthouse -> Great Lighthouse -> Interrupt with Oracle -> Finish Lighthouse with worker whip -> Forge -> Colossus with settler/worker whip.

Techs: Agriculture -> AH -> BW -> Fishing -> Sailing -> Mysticism -> Masonry -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Pottery -> Metal Casting (bulb)

SIP Ag>AH + worker first is the only start I see here, unless the scout reveals something revelatory down south. Decent start for Biz types, but I always like to see more food. Worker can farm wheat/mine gold while AH comes in.

Archery is a waste tech especially on Noble, LM. (by the way, it's fantastic to see you over here )

edit: whipping will probably have to be minimized on this start since it is food poor. however, there is decent early production for wonders, if you can grow onto it.

Note: for easy mode, build the Great Lighthouse.

Gold! Great to see. Will SiP and go Ag > AH.

I'll need roads to hook up the gold and the cows, so the wheel will be something of a priority, then agriculture>masonry>archery>AH. If I have some horses, I'll build a few chariots, and go shopping for a nice shiny city or two.

Click to expand...

Roads tend to be over-prioritized in general a lot in the early turns of games, even by moderately advanced players actually. The most important early focus is on the high-yield tiles; AG ----AH is a virtual certainty on this map, and you improve both resources before the gold unless you can actually finish the gold mine without losing turns of working the cow. The gold mine is the 3rd tile worked. As for the need to hook them up, it isn't helpful to do so until the city hits the cap (you'll be limited with this start, 5 before gold and 6 after...but there's a good chance you won't grow to the cap until after several workers/settlers)

Another reason you might go early wheel is for commerce (pottery or trade routes or both). This is not a good cottage capitol, however, and with a gold start we'll not be pressed for commerce. Probably after AG ---> AH the realistic considerations with this start are BW and writing, with BW strongly favored most likely. Only then might you consider the wheel, but if you don't have any good cottage sites nearby you might put it off until after both BW and writing.

And yes, GLH is a big draw on these kinds of map scripts. It's probably the strongest wonder in the game. We should at least confirm surroundings before committing to ANYTHING past opening tech order however.

Sigining in, Emperor/Normal.

Benginal said:

Settling on the plains hill is incredibly powerful. It seems a shame to waste a turn moving away from a plains hill to a grassland hill. You'll be getting the Gold and Wheat in your cross anyway, so it's not like you're missing out on them.

Click to expand...

You're right about the gold in the BFC, and the plains hill. I miscalculated with my imaginary dot map overlay.

BW first I think will be a little slow. Getting enough food to whip the worker will take a while. That's an interesting choice though and it's definitely something to think about. If I did start that way I would instead have the first worker immediately chop another worker.

I don't think you need quite that many early warriors. We're nicely at the end of a peninsula so the scout should do just fine fog busting nearby.

Click to expand...

My usually effective strat is to build a warrior first while teching BW. I then send out my warrior to fog bust, whilst my scout goes a-wanderin'. I will often build a second warrior while building up food (depends on the start), and then whip a worker. I take the chance of getting copper in the BFC that way. If I do get it, I will build a few Axemen. If my scout finds a nearby neighbor that is weak...

I generally "study on killin' " at least one civ early on.

lymond said:

Archery is a waste tech especially on Noble, LM. (by the way, it's fantastic to see you over here )

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Nice to be here <curtsy>

TheMeInTeam said:

Roads tend to be over-prioritized in general a lot in the early turns of games, even by moderately advanced players actually. The most important early focus is on the high-yield tiles; AG ----AH is a virtual certainty on this map, and you improve both resources before the gold unless you can actually finish the gold mine without losing turns of working the cow. The gold mine is the 3rd tile worked. As for the need to hook them up, it isn't helpful to do so until the city hits the cap (you'll be limited with this start, 5 before gold and 6 after...but there's a good chance you won't grow to the cap until after several workers/settlers)

Another reason you might go early wheel is for commerce (pottery or trade routes or both). This is not a good cottage capitol, however, and with a gold start we'll not be pressed for commerce. Probably after AG ---> AH the realistic considerations with this start are BW and writing, with BW strongly favored most likely. Only then might you consider the wheel, but if you don't have any good cottage sites nearby you might put it off until after both BW and writing.

And yes, GLH is a big draw on these kinds of map scripts. It's probably the strongest wonder in the game. We should at least confirm surroundings before committing to ANYTHING past opening tech order however.

Click to expand...

I deliberately haven't looked at the map details spoiler. I almost always play with random map and things, so why change?

Some great advice here already. I think I will SIP and examine my options when dalamb is able to upload the files. I'm really looking forward to this.

Lemon arrives just in time for Noble's Club #69... that can't be a coincidence!

You won't have horses in the BFC - I've never seen a horse on a hill, so no chariots until city #2.

Not starting with a worker? When you have a gold mine?

Being female does allow me to change my mind.

Sigh. I hadn't intended on a "watery map:: must go GLH" but I guess that might be a property of medium-and-small maps. I've still got a lot to learn about map types and their implications for gameplay.I've temporarily uploaded the .zip file to MediaFire: http://www.mediafire.com/?las7c3xzy8tfl7y. It'll disappear from there and reappear in the OP as soon as uploading attachments starts working again.

Hi all, bought CIV afew weeks ago when it was on offer on steam. Haven't play since the original Civ After reading the guides here and using the bat mod I seem to winning half the time on Noble so this series looks perfect for me.

So here's me signing up, I'll post my thoughts on start soon

@ dalamb

I deliberately haven't looked at the map details spoiler. I almost always play with random map and things, so why change?

Click to expand...

You have what appear to be 2 separate islands in the opening screenshot of turn 0. GLH adds 2 trade routes/cities, and cities off-continent have a guaranteed minimum 2 even as domestic trade routes.

My usually effective strat is to build a warrior first while teching BW. I then send out my warrior to fog bust, whilst my scout goes a-wanderin'. I will often build a second warrior while building up food (depends on the start), and then whip a worker. I take the chance of getting copper in the BFC that way. If I do get it, I will build a few Axemen. If my scout finds a nearby neighbor that is weak...

I generally "study on killin' " at least one civ early on.

Click to expand...

BW first is too slow. You can actually dial up your rush sooner if you get your high-yield tiles improved ASAP. There's plenty of time to find strat resources after that even on immortal/deity, so don't worry about going BW right away. The strongest tiles in the game outstrip virtually everything else; most of a civ's power in tech, military, etc comes from worked tiles. Get the best ones up ASAP!

So my thoughts on starting location. Going to use spoiler as not used it before and since the OP says starting location talk doesn't need to be in spoilers if i mess up its not so bad



O forgot to add, i followed OP to remove all the goody huts playing at Epic speed.

I played this to 1AD on Emperor, decided to stop as I had got 5 slave revolts in that time......

vhhawk said:

Subscribing! Never played as Bismarck -- that UB looks really, really powerful.

Click to expand...

In fact its easily one of the worst in the game, the benefits are both late and miniscule!