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Old Mar 06, 2011, 04:41 AM   #1
DST1348
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Question How does the new Representation Policy work?

Hello,

I am confused about how the new Representation Policy works . Here are some of my thoughts together with some questions :

The Culture cost for adopting a new Policy rises either through a) adopting a new Policy or b) founding a new city. Has someone figured out the equation that tells you the Culture cost based on the number of Cities , number of adopted Policies, wonders, and other social policies?

Now, Representation does decrease the increase in cost due to b) . If this sounds confusing, then you feel lilke me . If this makes sense to you, please enlighten me!

Another important question is: is it retroactive? That is, does it apply only to new Cities that will be founded after Representation is adopted (not retroactive), or does it apply to the cost increase due to existing Cities as well (retroactive)? For instance, if I have founded five Cities and then adopt Representation, does it only decrease the increase in Culture cost when I found my sixth City or does it apply to my five old ones too?
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 05:01 AM   #2
Jim Bro
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good question i have no idea
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 06:25 AM   #3
kekekeke
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Acquiring more cities does not have retroactive effect on your current policies, I believe its safe to say this is not retroactive either. Not that I have tested.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 05:25 PM   #4
KrikkitTwo
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Its retroactive

The formula is

Base cost [dependent on # of policies already] * (1+0.3*number of extra cities)

Representation changes that 0.3 to 0.2
on huge maps its 0.15 and changes to 0.1
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 05:28 PM   #5
civsucks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krikkitone View Post
Its retroactive

The formula is

Base cost [dependent on # of policies already] * (1+0.3*number of extra cities)

Representation changes that 0.3 to 0.2
on huge maps its 0.15 and changes to 0.1
It's actually .45*number of extra cities
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 05:31 PM   #6
KrikkitTwo
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Originally Posted by civsucks View Post
It's actually .45*number of extra cities
Well it depends on map size... that might be the tiny/duel
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 05:41 PM   #7
nicketzsche
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So does it make sense to beeline to this policy?
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 06:33 PM   #8
KrikkitTwo
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Only if you plan on having a lot of non-puppet cities or a lot of policies... it doesn't make sense to take it very late in the game (Like Free Speech)
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 06:35 PM   #9
magnus333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DST1348 View Post
Another important question is: is it retroactive? That is, does it apply only to new Cities that will be founded after Representation is adopted (not retroactive), or does it apply to the cost increase due to existing Cities as well (retroactive)? For instance, if I have founded five Cities and then adopt Representation, does it only decrease the increase in Culture cost when I found my sixth City or does it apply to my five old ones too?
When I hear retroactive I think of it going back to your previous policies and giving you the discount on those that you would have gotten if you had this bonus at the time that you selected the old policies. It does not do that.

The policy changes the cost of the next policy you buy and any there after, it does not change the cost of the ones you have already bought. Therefor, the sooner you get it the more benefit you get from it.

Let's say you have 5 cities and your next policy costs 1000. You spend 1000 to buy representation. Your next policy, and any thereafter, get the discount. If you then found a 6th city on a standard size map (0.3 base modifier) your next policy cost will increase by 20% instead of 30%.

However, let's say you have 5 cities and your next policy costs 1000. You get a free policy from building the oracle and you choose Representation. You will immediately see the change in formula and your next policy will actually cost less than the 1000 it was going to.

I wouldn't call it retroactive, I would say it immediately changes the formula and recalculates the cost of your next policy.

As to whether it's worth it to beeline, that depends on an infinite amount of factors. The extra benefit you get from other policies might be worth more than the earlier discount of representation depending on how the game plays out... but isn't that what civ is all about?
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 03:43 AM   #10
DST1348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krikkitone View Post
The formula is

Base cost [dependent on # of policies already] * (1+0.3*number of extra cities)

Representation changes that 0.3 to 0.2
Thank you (and the other members who replied), that was what I was looking for !

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnus333 View Post
When I hear retroactive I think of [...]
I wanted an equation to avoid confusion about words . I tought of "retroactive" with respect to number of cities, whereas you thought with respect to policy cost. My interpretation came from the in-game tooltip, which says "Each city you found will increase the Culture cost of policies by 33% less than normal". But thank you for your clarification on that point!

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Originally Posted by magnus333 View Post
The extra benefit you get from other policies might be worth more than the earlier discount of representation depending on how the game plays out... but isn't that what civ is all about?
I agree, we just have to play around.
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Old Mar 08, 2011, 01:17 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by magnus333 View Post
When I hear retroactive I think of it going back to your previous policies and giving you the discount on those that you would have gotten if you had this bonus at the time that you selected the old policies. It does not do that.

The policy changes the cost of the next policy you buy and any there after, it does not change the cost of the ones you have already bought. Therefor, the sooner you get it the more benefit you get from it.
Incorrect. The policy does not alter the increase in policy cost from adopting new policies, it alters the increase in policy cost from building new cities, and it does this retroactively -- that is, it will reduce the current cost of your next policy by 1/3rd of the extra cost of your existing cities (beyond your capital).

I have tested and confirmed this, and you can do the same if you build the Oracle to get a free policy, and use that free policy to adopt Representation. If you do this, the cost of your next social policy will actually decrease. If you adopt Representation as a normal policy after having acquired enough culture (instead of the free policy from building the Oracle), it is harder to notice that the culture cost rise from founding cities is applied retroactively, because the culture cost rise after adopting a policy is higher than the culture cost rise from building a new city, so the retroactive reduction of the culture cost rise from your existing cities can easily be more than eaten up by the rise from spending your culture on the new policy.
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Old Mar 08, 2011, 05:30 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Chibiabos View Post
Incorrect. The policy does not alter the increase in policy cost from adopting new policies, it alters the increase in policy cost from building new cities, and it does this retroactively -- that is, it will reduce the current cost of your next policy by 1/3rd of the extra cost of your existing cities (beyond your capital).

I have tested and confirmed this, and you can do the same if you build the Oracle to get a free policy, and use that free policy to adopt Representation.
No, magnus333 is right here, its not retroactive. The current and following policy costs are calculated by a number of cities. Representation decreases the effect on current and following costs. This is a fixed one-time change, and does not affect anything in the past. So spending 10millions culture before picking Representation will not give any of that culture back(the retroactive part here). If Representation is picked last, it does then in fact absolutely nothing. Thus - the earlier the better.
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Old Mar 12, 2011, 06:20 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Roller123 View Post
No, magnus333 is right here, its not retroactive. The current and following policy costs are calculated by a number of cities. Representation decreases the effect on current and following costs. This is a fixed one-time change, and does not affect anything in the past. So spending 10millions culture before picking Representation will not give any of that culture back(the retroactive part here). If Representation is picked last, it does then in fact absolutely nothing. Thus - the earlier the better.
If it were not retroactive, it would not affect the cost of the cities you have already built and thus would not affect the culture cost of your next policy. I have proven that it does.
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Old Mar 12, 2011, 07:08 PM   #14
KrikkitTwo
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Originally Posted by Chibiabos View Post
If it were not retroactive, it would not affect the cost of the cities you have already built and thus would not affect the culture cost of your next policy. I have proven that it does.
Retroactive with regards to cities

Not retroactive with regards to policies
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Old Mar 12, 2011, 10:19 PM   #15
Civ4Brains
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chibiabos View Post
The policy does not alter the increase in policy cost from adopting new policies, it alters the increase in policy cost from building new cities, and it does this retroactively -- that is, it will reduce the current cost of your next policy by 1/3rd of the extra cost of your existing cities (beyond your capital).
the above quote is actually a pretty good explanation of the provided formula and from some of my own tests I would concur that the change in formula from:

Base cost [dependent on # of policies already] * (1+0.3*number of extra cities)

to

Base cost [dependent on # of policies already] * (1+0.2*number of extra cities)

does factor in cities built before or after the acquisition of the Representation policy.

Last edited by Civ4Brains; Mar 12, 2011 at 10:48 PM.
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Old Aug 31, 2011, 06:25 PM   #16
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I think the confusion that some people are having regarding whether the policy is "retroactive" or not is that people are not understanding that the policy does not give you culture back.

When you adopt the policy, it reduces the cost of future policies for ALL your cities, including ones that are already built by the time you adopt the policy.

It does not reduce the costs of policies that you have already adopted. Therefore, if the reduction in cost would have allowed you to adopt an extra policy (if you had adopted Representation earlier in the game), you will not get an extra policy for free.
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Old Sep 02, 2011, 09:08 AM   #17
anandus
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So to get the most out of it, this should be adopted before founding a second city?
I'm not saying that's the best thing to do, but in that way you get the maximum culture-discount.
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Old Sep 02, 2011, 09:58 AM   #18
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So to get the most out of it, this should be adopted before founding a second city?
I'm not saying that's the best thing to do, but in that way you get the maximum culture-discount.
This is what I do. I beeline this policy and spend the time building monuments, workers, and a starting army. Sometimes even a settler so I'm ready to go the moment I get the policy.
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