.1.217 OCC Cultural (Deity Earth all Standard) 225 Turn thoughts

Tried a game after march patch using the popular OCC-powerhouse Arabia.
Deity, Standard Earth, Standard Speed, all default settings except OCC.
Finished the game on Turn 225. Capital's cultural output at the end was +460/turn.

I purposely picked a location right in the middle of the Euro-Asian continent so I can see both culture and war. I know there is a great strategy of peaceful OCC Cultural Deity. But I don't want to rely on luck that AI does not suddenly decide to invade the player. In addition, war is so profitable that I suspect I can finish the game even sooner with some military investment in mid-game.



Here are my thoughts for your reference:

(1) Thanks to the new Tradition policy, Cultural victory becomes much easier now. There is no fear of whether AI is going to finish a Diplomatic or Technology victory first.

(2) Although techs are more expensive, the overall progression of techs have not really slowed down, since the player and all deity AIs still liberally use Research Agreement throughout the game. My tech at the winning turn looks like this:



(3) This is my first time to play as Arab. And indeed, I think it is the most powerful Civ for OCC after trying Aztec, Siam, and Egypt. (But I am also getting more familiar with the game.)

(4) Wonder building efficiency has been reduced. For example, I only got Stonehenge at turn 45. But AIs also build wonders slower, so I was still able to complete Stonehenge. The player now has to be more picky at what to build and what to skip.



(5) AIs are much more peaceful after mid-game thanks to the 50-turn denouncement limit. It is very hard to bribe AI into warring others. For example, in this game I never succeeded bribing Monty to attack his immediate neighbor Dairus, although they were sharing an overcrowded Africa.

I guess I got "lucky" to have Japan as a neighbor, since Japan was the only Civ willing to be bribed to attack others. However, Japan soon grew to be the superpower, so I declared war on Japan on Turn 109 (my first war. And from that point on it was constant war for Arab) to keep it under control.

(6) Probably because of the more frequent peace time, AI is more willing to build late-game wonders. I was only able to complete Christo Redentor (but successfully got everything that really matters for Culture).



(7) AI expands very rapidly since now they have to place the cities farther away - at least as fast as before. However, the farther distances between cities make it much easier to demolish them later, since now there are much less crossfires from neighbor cities, and much more tiles opening up for our units.

Man... I can't even pull off a 2 city cultural victory on King with Egypt before turn 300 I applaud you sir.

On another note... What makes Arabia so popular as an OCC Civ? I don't see anything in their UA that would benefit them over say Egypt, India, or Siam.

Doesn't Arabia's UA require multiple cities? And how often do you need oil in an OCC?

I've been wondering what the best SP opening is now. While it's nice to start with Tradition for the 3 culture/turn and rapid border expansion, it's hard to resist going through Liberty to grab a free worker and a free wonder (via GE). This also makes me think that Liberty should be the fifth tree now (along with Tradition, Piety, Patronage, and Freedom).

Also, now that gold is harder to come by, how can you afford RA's and city state bribes? You can't always count on a site with 10 tradable resources so how else can you make money?

Arabia UA reads; 'double gold from selling (bazaar doubled) luxuries'.

Dinhcara said:

On another note... What makes Arabia so popular as an OCC Civ? I don't see anything in their UA that would benefit them over say Egypt, India, or Siam.

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Oh it is Bazaar. It doubles resources. For example, if you have 1 silk, with Bazaar it becomes 2 silks. So a 10 gold/turn income becomes 20 gold/turn per resource. It is insane.

terrycrist3 said:

Doesn't Arabia's UA require multiple cities? And how often do you need oil in an OCC?

I've been wondering what the best SP opening is now. While it's nice to start with Tradition for the 3 culture/turn and rapid border expansion, it's hard to resist going through Liberty to grab a free worker and a free wonder (via GE). This also makes me think that Liberty should be the fifth tree now (along with Tradition, Piety, Patronage, and Freedom).

Also, now that gold is harder to come by, how can you afford RA's and city state bribes? You can't always count on a site with 10 tradable resources so how else can you make money?

Click to expand...

Yeah the other unique abilities are useless. Didn't have any oil, so never knew what they do. (Rocket) Artillery + Mechanized Infantry alone is a good combination.

But Bazaar itself is enough. I find that Earth maps seem to be more cluttered with resources. It is not unusual to find sites that eventually covers 10 resources (or more), actually. I bought a lot of things in this game. RA is just a small portion of the spending. So I am sure one can still maintain non-stop RAs with almost everyone with 4-5 resources over the 3-tile radius, and 6-7 over the 5-tile radius. I had 24 RAs before the game ends (the 25th lands right on the turn the game ends). So it is not that much gold. Plus war is very profitable once it starts. I got 3679 gold from a cease fire with Japan and another 1000+ gold from Egypt. That covers at least half of the RA cost. And right before the game ends, I got 4000+ gold from US for cease fire.

For policies I picked Tradition, Piety, Patronage, Freedom, Order (pretty standard). Patronage pulled me through mid-game before the AIs get rich and go on city states buying frenzy. They will get whatever they want - even with relationship > 300.

There is no way to keep enough CS allies in end game unless the player lock them up by DoW the buyers. I had 0 CS allies at the end, but some are still friendly to me. The capital's culture output far outweighs the CS's contribution.

Dinhcara said:

Man... I can't even pull off a 2 city cultural victory on King with Egypt before turn 300 I applaud you sir.

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Don't forget that Deity allows you earlier wins then lets say chieftain f.e.
It was the same in Civ4, and it is still the case in Civ5.
You basically take advantage of the boni the AI gets, both in luxury trading and RA's. The fact that he ran on a large map again helps this fact.

Not to downsize his game and achievement, but Deity games often seem more spectacular in that regard.

Yep, Deity is definitely faster if the players understand the game mechanics and utilize it. Also, a larger map favors resource selling and RA, both are the bread and butter of OCC.

terrycrist3 said:

Doesn't Arabia's UA require multiple cities? And how often do you need oil in an OCC?

I've been wondering what the best SP opening is now. While it's nice to start with Tradition for the 3 culture/turn and rapid border expansion, it's hard to resist going through Liberty to grab a free worker and a free wonder (via GE). This also makes me think that Liberty should be the fifth tree now (along with Tradition, Piety, Patronage, and Freedom).

Also, now that gold is harder to come by, how can you afford RA's and city state bribes? You can't always count on a site with 10 tradable resources so how else can you make money?

Click to expand...

Going Through Liberty Seems good as a way to get Stonehenge/Oracle... The way I see it.

either
Tradition-Aristocracy-Legalism... IF you can get to Philosophy Before Legalism for a Free Temple (requires rushing Philosophy)
Hard Build Wonders... Egypt+Marble tend to favor this I think

Advantage is you get Monarchy+Landed Elite Earlier

or
Liberty->Meritocracy... For free Worker and Free Wonder (SH/Oracle)

Here you either put Monarchy+Landed Elite off OR count Legalism as a loss since you will probably build a temple before you get there. (OK for Siam/India it can get you a free Wat/Mughal Fort... might be usable for a Free Monastery)... once you get Acoustics/Opera Houses you are trying to get Free Speech

Sure. For non-culture games Liberty may be a rewarding route to take.

The Liberty policies are not that geared towards OCC, or any culture game. The key for a culture game is to get into the Freedom tree as soon as possible. So the player needs to reach the 2 policies from the bottom of Piety by the time Renaissance arrives. There are not so many policies for pre-Renaissance, and many Tradition, Piety, and even Patronage policies are sweet.

I never thought of them as a OCC Civ. I'll have to give it a shot sometime

Yeah. With at least 40-50 gold/turn of extra income as Arab, a whole world of opportunities open up in mid game (Currency). As the AIs expand and gather more resources, though, resource trade will slow down. Between turn 75 and 187, I had 70 turns of Golden Age because of the excessive happiness, policies, wonders, etc..

The idea is that the boost of wealth in mid-game can be used to fund an army in addition to RAs. And "peace gold" plus the optional pre-war loan exploit becomes a significant source of income once the wars start.

The trick to get truck loads of peace gold is to declare war and keep winning until the AI is willing to offer a mountain pile of gold. So keep trying every few turns to see how much the AI is willing to pay and try to land the deal with the largest profit. The player has up to 3 war declarations. So there are at least 3 peace gold to grab. It is even better if the AI declares war on the player.

maltz said:

(3) This is my first time to play as Arab. And indeed, I think it is the most powerful Civ for OCC after trying Aztec, Siam, and Egypt. (But I am also getting more familiar with the game.)

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in a real standard map / standard settings you're not going to have 11 luxuries within your cultural boundaries, more likely you'll have 3 or 4 max.

when you set this up, did you choose the positions for all the ai as well?

vexing said:

in a real standard map / standard settings you're not going to have 11 luxuries within your cultural boundaries, more likely you'll have 3 or 4 max.

when you set this up, did you choose the positions for all the ai as well?

Click to expand...

Hey please hold off with the hostility. If you try a few earth maps, you will see how resource-rich it could be, such as Africa. And I swear to Allah that this map comes as is.

Indeed Earth map is made that way. Many luxury resources and major food shortage.

maltz said:

Hey please hold off with the hostility. If you try a few earth maps, you will see how resource-rich it could be, such as Africa. And I swear to Allah that this map comes as is.

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what hostility? it was just a factual comment: arabia is more powerful in your setup than in a standard randomly generated map.

Ok. Here is another earth map I had before:

Just shows that it is rather common to have a nice start on Earth. However, there is also reduced number of AIs to make RA in early game (as one or more may be spawned in the new world), and the lack of natural wonders. So far I only discovered 1 natural wonder in the standard earth map.
I am not trying to apply for a record or brag about my skills - I am still learning the game like many others who post here. Just share my thoughts on the new patch and compare it to the previous one.

Neat. I think OCC culture might now a faster win than science, but probably slower than Diplomatic. It's around where it should be, because OCC is a gamble and gambles should pay off in terms of quicker wins.

I agree with earth maps being super resource heavy. I had one game (not a OCC) Where a single city had 2 silver and 3 gold. I instantly made that my commerce city as the mint + gold multipliers = rich.