Immortal University 54 - Frederick

NihilZero

WHEOOHRNY
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
1,161
Location
Dublin, Ireland
Hey there, civvers! It's that time again. Time for the AIs to run and hide. Time to separate the men from the boys. Immortal University is here once more.

Whether you are a battlescarred civ veteran, or a fresh faced rookie, the U is open to all, on one condition: that you pledge to solemnly uphold the proud traditions enshrined in these distinguished, marbled halls: smacking down the hapless AI!

And who better to deal the aforementioned smackdown than this rather imposing bruiser:



Okay, so Fred may not look like much, but he's one of my favourite leaders, if not my absolute favourite. Why? The traits, of course (well you knew it wasn't the uniques). PHI and ORG each do a hell of a lot to help you win and both together is almost unfair. Despite his awesomeness, Freddie doesn't seem to get much respect, probably because of the uniques. They certainly do suck. He doesn't see a lot of action in the S&T forum, probably for that very reason.

Starting position:



Not exactly inspiring, is it?

This is an all-singing, all-dancing, all-random Fractal map, untouched by human hand. It goes without saying that huts and events are off, so I won't say it.

And finally, the always popular copy and paste section:

To play, just extract the WB save file into your worldbuilder saves directory, then play it. Use custom scenario if you want some extra settings to tickle your fancy. This series was designed for people learning immortal, so most people here will be at that level or trying to attain it, although deity players are welcome also. Hell, if you want to play this on NOBLE, go ahead, but I'm not peeling off the AI bonuses. The intention of this and any other game thread I post is to get better. Play whatever level you need in order to improve. Just remember, there are immortal bonuses and that's not going to change unless you WB edit it.

If you are aspiring IMM+, try to remember to add archery back to the barbs in WB. Every time you don't, a deity AI will kill a kitten, although there are a lot of kittens so it's not the end of the world if you prefer easymode barbs .

I do request people to list their difficulty and speed. In terms of updates, well nobody follows that anyway. Post in the manner you feel comfortable. Typical comparison dates are 1 AD, liberalism, and victory/defeat, as well as any major events. If in doubt, go with that.

If you don't like messing about in worldbuilder (and who does?) then I recommend the initial autosave (Immortal/Normal) rather than the zip. You know it makes sense.

Have at it!
 

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Ok, I'll try it.

Not exactly inspiring, is it?
In Positive 2 rivers, few hills, nothing really special (well, just a first impression).

This is an all-singing, all-dancing, all-random Fractal map, untouched by human hand. It goes without saying that huts and events are off, so I won't say it.
...
If you don't like messing about in worldbuilder (and who does?) then I recommend the initial autosave (Immortal/Normal) rather than the zip.
yeah, that's for me. Just double click and start playing.

By the way, sorry for cross posting, I left you a question about your game in my last post in the #53 thread; if (whenever) you have time to answer, it would be really appreciated. :)

yatta.
 
Yay, Freddy is also one of my favorite leaders :) Those factories get up in no time with him, really - it's sick: 200% with coal, teh lulz O_O
 
hmm maybe will try for some industrial transition, should be fine with this leader...

but Nihil what you did with the food! be honest... did you eat it all?

that PH 1SW somewhat draws me, but it looks like will go into more plains...
 
hmm maybe will try for some industrial transition, should be fine with this leader...

but Nihil what you did with the food! be honest... did you eat it all?

that PH 1SW somewhat draws me, but it looks like will go into more plains...

Spice starts send a shudder down my spine as I've seen spice as the only "food" resource before...

Spoiler :
...but I did move the scout before uploading this to confirm that there is in fact something to eat, and no, Nihil did not eat all the food. :lol:
 
Going to try this as my first Immortal game :) Now, 1SW 1W or 1SW 1SE with the scout for best view to see if moving is good :)
 
1SW looks good. You get to keep all the fogged tiles (except for that lake tile if I've read the fog correctly) and don't give up that much in the process. Freddy is one of my favourite leaders.
 
nothing interesting to the north and east (well ... wine, but that doesn't count as interesting at this stage) so i'd throw the scout onto the hill 1w of the settler and ponder from there ...

First Immortal game by the way so i somewhat expect to be bought to the cleaners by the AI's

btw, anyone have a link for where you can see the differences between the levels, as in what handicaps the AI's get at what levels
 
hmm I meant the hill 1 SE... always so confusing these directions! SW is plains tile... dunno what I had smoked.
 
Spoiler To 1ad :

Sent my scout down 1sw1w and saw that we had Cows if we didn't go east, but otherwise fairly uninspirering desert hills, so i settled down 1s gaining more riverside land and faster Irrigated rice ... not exactly foodheavy area but could be worse

Built 6 cities, of them 5 of them ranging between decent and good, Colonge is admittedly a bit meh, but i need the crab for healthiness ... had a bit of a problem early on with a Barb city that was sitting on the hill (just north of Berlin so i only could expand south (room for 1 city) east (room for 1 city) and west (you guessed it ... room for one meh city) between Essen and Frankfurt so my expandsion suffered because the land to the northwest (which is still relatively free) sucks donkey balls from a food PoV, althrough i just might see if i can manage to grab the barb city a bit up there that have some sugar ...

Managed to be somewhat on the ball techwise (fish/gold to the south help loads) and relatively equal with everyone, trying not to trade with Asoka which half the pangaea hates ... thinking of trying to arrange a catapult/sword stack on Giggles or maybe clamp down waiting out for either espionage-enforced cuissasiers or cannon+whatever ... think i have the land for it

Shaka has enough on our hands, but i'm not a target since he was it when i met him (fairly late)


would like someone to take a look at my save giving opinions since i'm usually playing Emperor
 

Attachments

First Session, to 2640BC
Spoiler :
I moved the Scout on the East Hill (sW->W): discovered Rice and Cow.
I moved the Settler 1S discovered 2 hills on the South.
Good enough for me, I settled there.



To take all you guys happy (just adopting a kidding style from now on, hoping I'm not offending anyone) I had to pick the Worker as first build and Research: Agriculture -> Animal Husbandry.

Finished with the Worker, I built 2 Warriors, putted one on the Hill NW from the city site, the other in the city, with the Scout who came back from its scouting (what else a scout can do?) with a CI promotion gained defeating a Panther and a Lion: though guy!

Barbarian Warriors showed up, as many Horses when I earlier discovered Animal Husbandry, so I was tempted to build a Settler to settle (what else a settler can do?) in the south in that nice quiet forest close to Fish, Horse and Gold.



All my advisors (btw, why Mozilla Firefox claims the correct term is advisers? I see the word spelled with an "o" quite often) were thinking that finally I could make wise decisions, but they didn't know I eventually already thought about something weird to do anyways: after building my (pathetic) army... the Pyramids would be the next build! That Philosophic trait and all those mines near Berlin have to be used at their best!

Some advisors knew it when after Animal Husbandry next I researched Masonry, before going on the Writing -> Alphabet path, skipping even The Wheel (since the :health: cap is higher than the :) cap and I only have :health: resources to connect).

Anyways, since I'm a good (or at least fair enough) dictator and I promised not to run Slavery, my lonely worker did already a great job Farming my Rice, building a Pasture for my Cows, and Mining already a couple of Riverside Grassland Hills in the South. Next Mines will be on the Wine in the East and the other Riverside Grassland Hill defended by the Warrior NW from the capital.

About the tiles to work, since (besides having trouble understanding how slavery works) I have a 5:food: and a 4:food: tiles (which means I cannot (2+4+5=11) even up the :food: at 10) and many mines (so I can make as many :hammers: I want), I'll use my patented "Up and Down" :food: stored strategy: 1 turn +4 :food: (working the Rice), 4 turns -1 :food: +4 :hammers: (working an extra mine).



I believe myself it is more remunerative than running Slavery (1:food: = 1:hammers:), but since I believe myself many things the majority of the other players assure me are wrong, you guys don't take it as an example and enslave as much as you like.

Finished with the Pyramids I'll build a Settler and a Library. In the second city a Workboat, a Library, Barracks, and Charriots (I don't know yet in which order, it depend on how important will be have units ready soon). About the Workboat, since I started with Mining and Hunting, it will be after discovering the Alphabet (and exchanging something for Fishing).

After discovering Alphabet, if I'll be the first there I'll trade massively every other tech I have to get Bronze Working and all the other missing earlier Tech; while keeping Alphabet for myself as long as nobody else discover it: then I'll exchange that one too, for something convenient as Mathematics or Metal Casting. I think I'll then go following the Code of Law -> Civil Service -> Education -> Liberalism way after that (I didn't cite them all, you know by memory the missing ones anyways).

That's it for now. Greetings.

Attached the SaveGame
ScreenShots are inside the Spoiler.
yatta.
 
@yatta77

Spoiler :
Its not :food: = :hammers:, 1 Pop gives you 30 :hammers:, the recommended whip is 2 Pop (normally 4>2, as early Game 4 is the basic Happy Cap) for 60 :hammers:. Of course thats ideal and isn't always possible :) But i'll take it as an example, its takes 50 :food: to grow from 2 to 4. Thats 1.2 :hammers: per :food:, of course a Granary is recommended as an important early building due to growth, it helps Whipping alot as then it only takes 25 :food: to grow for 2.4 :hammers: per :food:. Taking your example of the Rice to Mine, in 5 Turns you gain 16 :hammers:, under Slavery 5 Turns of Rice = 24 :hammers: (48 with Granary) if you can 2 Pop Whip, this isn't even taking into account the extra tile you can work thru growth. Now if you were at Pop 4 when using Rice to Mine, then of course you would lose 2 tiles while you grow back, reducing the extra :hammers: from Whipping, also if you don't have anything to 2 Pop Whip then your method is much better, as in general 1 Pop Whips should only be used when the long term out ways the short term (ie rushing a settler to claim land before AI, getting a defender in a City during war/against barbs) due to the Happiness Penalty

That said Whipping isn't always the best way, and blindly Whipping is as bad as never whipping :) and this is mainly just to show that the :food: to :hammers: you said isn't really right :D


I'm at around 1AD now so once i get chance i'll do some Screens and post for help as i've a feeling i may of over settled, thou atleast i'm not loosing at 0% :)
 
Second Session, to 1360BC (playing on Immortal is Great!)
Spoiler :

The building of The Pyramids was proceeding beautifully, as the research of the Alphabet, and everybody was :) and :health:



Until, like in every Epic Story, something happened...



...nasty Barbarians coming out from everywhere approached my lands.



One Warrior and the (Promoted!) Scout where in the city (with the Worker as well), while the Warrior on the Hill was fully Fortified: so no matter it was menaced by two enemy Warriors, I decided to leave it there.



I was kind of hoping the Barbarian on the Cow tile would Pillage that Pasture instead of attacking; and also with both enemies attacking, defeating both my Warrior would gain a Promotion, while defeating one was an acceptable output anyways.



My Hill Fortified Warrior was killed in the second attack, but was avenged when that wounded Barbarian attacked the other Warrior Fortified in the city the next turn; the third upcoming Barbarian Warrior eventually pillaged the Cow Pasture approaching the city, while the Barbarian Archer went back to murder a misfortunate Giglemesh Scout who was exploring alongside my cultural borders.



When the third Barbarian Warrior got killed attacking the city, with my Heroic Warrior gaining a well deserved Combat I promotion from defeating two enemy Warriors in his career, The Pyramids were eventually finished!

My worker could then go fix up that Cow Pasture (actually build it again), and I could switch the production to a Warrior (in just 1 turn, also without the :hammers: overflow from The Pyramids), postponing again the production of my first Settler.



When one of my advisors (btw, am I the only one who thinks that the CivII Advisor Council was a touch of geniality in that game?) asked what The Pyramids were good for, he had troubles understanding the meaning of Representation: he eventually got it as "a way for people not too smart like him to have a say in important decisions, if charismatic and popular enough to get voted, and that it was good because Scientist would unveil undiscovered mysteries sooner and people would be happier, but only if living in big cities", and started to ask all his friends to vote him (in the first ever electoral campaign in history). He had troubles understanding Anarchy either, when he was told we were waiting to train few needed Warriors before adopting Representation, but nobody bothered explaining him that one.

Even harder was to explain my citizens that to fight more efficiently the Barbarians we should first discover the Alphabet: it ended up with them believing in some kind magic stuff which allows people to instantly share immense and extremely powerful knowledge; which actually was close enough for me.

That's all for now.
The last Screen Shot is quite explicative on my general situation.

So far:
- 66 turn played
- 3 Unit Trained (total)
- 1 City Founded (including capital)
- 2 AI Civilizations known (none of them has discovered the Alphabet yet)
- 9 turn remaining before discovering the Alphabet
I guess you can guess what the next session will be about.

GameSave attached.

Going to try this as my first Immortal game

First Immortal game by the way so i somewhat expect to be bought to the cleaners by the AI's

Second Immortal game for me, the first was #53!

@Habitus
First of all, thanks for replying. Than thanks for the (correct) mathematical explanation. Then thanks for presenting the subject for what it really is: one of the mechanisms of the game, not the only one smart to use. Then thanks for letting it as a relaxed and academical talk, there is no need to convert anybody to any game mechanism IMO, after all we mostly are here to compare strategies and point of views. Then, IMO, yes, you are correct on your conclusions: Slavery it is, if wisely adopted, an efficient and very powerful game mechanism.

The reasons why I usually skip it are:

#) Bronze Working (Slavery) and Pottery (Granary) are not in my priorities:

- (unless I'm Rome ;) ) if I do an Early Rush, it is because I have horses: I like better faster but weaker Mounted Units than slower but stronger Melee Units (after all, the name says it: Rush!); so Mining, The Wheel and Animal Husbandry before like anything else, and Horse Riding before Bronze Working in most of the cases (Shaka might be an exception, even more if the Impi was a unit a little better taking cities);

- if I play a peaceful game, like this one, I go for Writing -> Alphabet path as soon as possible, to be the first up there, usually from Animal Husbandry, with only Mining, Masonry if I want to get to Pyramids->Representation, The Wheel, Fishing and Agriculture as possible deviations, depending on the map (in any case, having already 2 Techs from the start, I never research more than Animal Husbandry + 2 others before going for Writing). Playing Gandhi I can even end up going up the Meditation -> Masonry for Pyramids -> Priesthood way, which is a path I don't like and slows down everything else, just to get to Alphabet rapidly. After that I build Libraries and tend toward a SE, so when I get to Bronze Working (usually trading Writing for it) I'm already close to Code of Laws and a more useful for most of my games Caste System, which suits my strategy the best.

#) See my population drop from 5 to 3 makes me sad, especially since:

- for the reasons explained above I don't always have Granaries really early in the game;

- for the reasons explained above I would often be in the situation where I have to enslave good :hammers: from Mines or good :science: from Scientists.

#) In a game like CivIV, I like the challenge of disbanding consolidated strategies and adopt a personal style: this doesn't mean play stupidly of course, ehm... just play smartly in a different way maybe?

#) Most Important: playing this game I'm definitively, besides a little arrogant, a lot stubborn! ;)

Conclusions: even if I recognize that the Granary is one of the best buildings, the Axeman one of the best Units, and Slavery is powerful, my games usually have other priorities at that time. I'm not claiming that my strategies are efficient, but, for myself, I'm more comfortable playing this way in the majority of the cases, and all this make Slavery quite unlikely for me to use. I might use it sometimes, before discovering Code of Laws and adopting Caste System, if: (a) I have a Spiritual leader, and (b) I'm going to get something useful from it; otherwise, also if Spiritual, I skip that 1 turn of Anarchy and save that 1 :gold: (at least) in Civic Maintenance cost. But mostly, I simply forget this option even exists... :p ;)

Btw, seems like I'm definitively not the only European posting in this thread!

@all
Happy Easter!

yatta.
 
1 AD

Spoiler :


Barb city just taken to get my count to 7. Just got great library and MoM. Probably going to be building parth and SP for failure gold. Music is about to come in. The 12 turn GA will be huge (i've made zero civic changes thus far.) Just traded Gilga monarchy and literature for construction so he will go into HR and I can get him to friendly. During GA, will be able to get plenty of scientists for acadamy and bulbs.

Techs (IIRC): Agriculture, Archery, Wheel, Pottery, Writing, Bronze working, AH, Aest.

civ4screenshot0055.jpg


civ4screenshot0056.jpg


civ4screenshot0057.jpg




Edit: Where to go from here? I can get sistine and found taoism leaving me with 2 religions (3 if my barb city picks up a new one) and go for culture win? I am only bordered by gilga and should be able to keep him at friendly. Otherwise cuirrisairs and cavalry Asoska/Justinian?
 

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Hmm, was just about to cross over the domination threshold, when I misclicked (mis-read too) and accidently voted for someone else for religious vic. Naturally, my over-whealming number of votes sealed my own fate.

I guess it is possible to lose on immortal after all.
 
Hmm, was just about to cross over the domination threshold, when I misclicked (mis-read too) and accidently voted for someone else for religious vic. Naturally, my over-whealming number of votes sealed my own fate.

I guess it is possible to lose on immortal after all.

:lol: :goodjob:
 
Hmm, was just about to cross over the domination threshold, when I misclicked (mis-read too) and accidently voted for someone else for religious vic. Naturally, my over-whealming number of votes sealed my own fate.

I guess it is possible to lose on immortal after all.

There is a worldbuilder save for Deity types like yourself. It might even work, for all I know (heven't tested it...:mischief:).
 
anyone that could take a look at my save comming with comments? ... i would really like some opinions about how my game (and very rough gameplan) looks
 
anyone that could take a look at my save comming with comments? ... i would really like some opinions about how my game (and very rough gameplan) looks

I had a look at your save.
Spoiler :
You're a little small for 1AD as far as population goes, probably due to the barbs boxing you in and delaying you from settling. The problem is that now Gilgamesh is going to encircle you and get huge. Techwise you are okay but your research seems to be lacking focus a little - you have HBR, a dead-end tech, yet you obviously weren't planning a HA rush on anybody, now you are teching Construction but I don't think you are in a strong position for a catapult war.

You're heading in the right direction, but on Immortal you need to expand a little faster, try to grow your pop earlier than this, and have a much clearer purpose in mind when choosing your tech path. :goodjob:

I settled the southern gold quite late which cost me commerce but allowed me to claim sites that would otherwise have gone to Sumeria. Likewise, I delayed the crab site until post renaissance if I remember correctly. I knew I could get these spots whenever I wanted so it was more important early on to compete with Gilgamesh for other city locations.

As far as diplo goes you may have trouble keeping both Gilgamesh and Justinian happy as they are in different religions, but at least you'll get the civic bonus with Giglamesh when he adopts HR.
 
anyone that could take a look at my save comming with comments? ... i would really like some opinions about how my game (and very rough gameplan) looks


Spoiler :

Nihil said it all pretty well. I was wondering why you had HBR and were teching Construction as well. Code of laws and philo bulb would have been better because I don't think you are in a position for a catapult war either.

The two towns making Jewish Temples could have been making a settler for marble and swords to take the barb city. The temples are pointless buildings ATM. 25 hammer archer would give you a happiness. No one has theo so AP is still open to any religion.

When did you get archery? I see only one archer built. Looks like you were thinking HA rush but bailed on it? Early scouting shows enough room for 6+ cities so HA rush is not needed. Depending on how long you delayed archery, you may not have needed to waste time on it at all.

Still a winnable position IMO.
 
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