Independent Civilization ideas

I'm not really sure where the best place to put this is, but here goes.

I'd like to know what people's thoughts are, on an independent version of a Civilization game and what you would like to see from it.

I've posted this here as I believe strategy games should be in 2D and that the only thing missing from Civ3 is the modding capability of Civ4. And the fact that Civ3 is also easier to mod in terms of graphics because of the 2D element. Not to mention the huge repository of art work available for Civ3.

Now obviously hot topics like Modding/Multiplayer/AI/Diplomacy would probably be top of most people's list. But how about things like 2D/3D, square tiles, iso tiles, hex tiles. 1UPT?. Is XML ok for game rules? How about a scripting language? Maybe c++ code as well. Ability to change the UI?

Not every one likes the same Civ, some are going to prefer Civ3, some prefer 4 and some prefer 5. All for different reasons. So what ever you do only some people are going to like it. Now I'm not really looking to create an awesome version of civ as I don't think that can be done, due to the fact that every one prefers different game rules.
But if you can provide the tools for people to use, then they can make what they want. Tools would obviously need to be easy to use and creating a MOD would need to be as painless as possible.

I could probably write loads more, but I'll leave this now to hopefully get some feedback.

A collection of images from stuff that i've been working on from over the past 5 years or so.



Jimmyh

I agree completely with you on the 2D is better idea. I also know what you mean by some people prefer 3 over 4, or 4 over 5, etc. I have a friend who swears by and plays only Civ2. I think a better AI would be top of the list, then diplomacy for me. Modding seems already quite powerful in Civ3, where concepts like power are can be modded into religion. The AI definitely needs better naval and air scouting improvements.

A program that automatically installs new units and their graphics would be a huge step forward for Civ3 modding.

Evidently we feel like a customization feature to allow a wide range of choices would be something we would like to buy.

Jimmyh said:

... But if you can provide the tools for people to use, then they can make what they want. Tools would obviously need to be easy to use and creating a MOD would need to be as painless as possible.

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Several projects already exist: notably Steph's game project, Steph's editor, & Quintillus' Cross-Platform editor.

Jimmyh said:

I'd like to know what people's thoughts are, on an independent version of a Civilization game and what you would like to see from it. ... that the only thing missing from Civ3 is the modding capability of Civ4.

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An oft mentioned feature that there seems to be no way to do in C3 is the triggered events from C2.

Jimmyh said:

... hex tiles.

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In Steph's game (in development). With height tiers.

RHKINC said:

A program that automatically installs new units and their graphics would be a huge step forward for Civ3 modding.

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Check out both the editors.

I would like to see an independent project. Preferably one that can use civ 3 graphics so that I and other artists don't have to rerender the work. But would also allow different media, FLCs for leader heads are too low in color resolution.
There's a lot I would like to see in a fan made civ-type game, but I don't know anything about programing, so I cannot help.

ShiroKobbure said:

I would like to see an independent project. Preferably one that can use civ 3 graphics so that I and other artists don't have to rerender the work. But would also allow different media, FLCs for leader heads are too low in color resolution.
There's a lot I would like to see in a fan made civ-type game, but I don't know anything about programing, so I cannot help.

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I totally agree with Shiro - and likewise know nothing about programming.

Do you know someone who is considering making an independent Civilization game? or is this thread just for discussion. I agree, best to use same direction isometric, because no one is going to re-render hundreds of units.

tom2050 said:

Do you know someone who is considering making an independent Civilization game? or is this thread just for discussion. I agree, best to use same direction isometric, because no one is going to re-render hundreds of units.

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I have wanted to make a Civ game for a very long time now, and at the moment this is just a discussion. Yes I agree on isometric, as for diamond or hex iso well take a look at the attached image.

ShiroKobbure said:

I would like to see an independent project. Preferably one that can use civ 3 graphics so that I and other artists don't have to rerender the work. But would also allow different media, FLCs for leader heads are too low in color resolution.
There's a lot I would like to see in a fan made civ-type game, but I don't know anything about programing, so I cannot help.

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I have always liked the units from Civ3, I think they give more detail that Civ4&5's 3d models. Different media is certainly some thing to consider.

RHKINC said:

A program that automatically installs new units and their graphics would be a huge step forward for Civ3 modding.

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This is a very good idea and some thing I would have liked for Civ3 many years ago.

RHKINC said:

I agree completely with you on the 2D is better idea. I also know what you mean by some people prefer 3 over 4, or 4 over 5, etc. I have a friend who swears by and plays only Civ2. I think a better AI would be top of the list, then diplomacy for me. Modding seems already quite powerful in Civ3, where concepts like power are can be modded into religion. The AI definitely needs better naval and air scouting improvements.

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Yes I would agree that 2D is loads better than 3D, certainly for most people who do not have a PC to use DX11.

I'll leave this image here just to show how you could improve on the look of Civ3.

That image is likely possible to incorporate into Civ 3 (besides the mountains, since the engine can't fit them together as those above do), but wouldn't be able to be at that high of a resolution, obviously. If the resolution could be up'd a bit, Civ 3 could look like a incredible photo-realistic masterpiece after some professional graphics work.

I've often thought about how I would design a Civ type game myself.

To expand on Blue Monkeys mention of the loss of Civ2 scripted events - I really think you need tiered modding capabilities.

Keep it 2d for the ease of use. Allow Civ3-style modding for those that prefer that. Add in some basic scripting functionality for those of us that dearly miss it. Civ2 and IIRC CTP had scripting too. Allowing this would allow the more casual modders to continue to contribute to the community. Having a much more expansive ini file would help here too. So would the unit adding ability. I would love to have a better way of importing maps from an image, too. The editor in Civ3 is decent but for rules (not map making) Stephs is better. Arbitrary limits should be removed (Civs, units, cities, techs, etc)

Leaving the code at least somewhat open source would further allow the really hardcore modders to customize the daylights out of the game. This also enhances the community.

Going back to maps - I like the idea of terrain layers. Forests should not be a unique tile but rather an overlay on top of other terrain. I loved the terraforming and elevation features in SMAC\X.

SMAC\X also had a better civics & unit creation model. They also had an interesting option of blind research.

Being a DBA, I of course would love to see and edit the underlying database directly, even query from it, so I can make sure everything has been modded to my liking. I am open on the type, so long as they query language is ansi-92 compliant or fairly easy to learn.

Another feature I liked in the CTP series was visible trade routes that could be pirated, and the ability to build in sea tiles (fisheries, etc). It also had truly amphibious units like hovercraft that could traverse both land and water.

I could write a book on other things like diplomacy and AI improvements.

With that picture's quality I have a sense your holding out your own personal progress....

Allowing scripted events would be a fantastic addition to Civ 3, the historical possibilities are limitless. Technology would now not be the marker of time in some scenarios but an actual representation of a nation's progress so that if you do well, then you really do well until a historical calamity falls upon you.

The hex approach is interesting, and if the project to design an entirely new Civ engine, renaming it "Whatever avoids copy-write infringement!" the final product would (as Gojira said) have to open source almost all the coding (in other words remove hard coded elements). Then keep the resolution to a really high one for the most talented of creators, but also keep it in dimensions that could easily be downgraded automatically for other systems and graphics capabilities/desires.

Perhaps multiplying Minecraft graphics to the 100th power and scaling back as needed might work? (I don't actually mean Minecraft graphics, but the concept of 8bit upgraded to huge capabilities is sort of what we're talking about with the civ3 engine).

As for not re-rendering hundreds of units check out Google results for the Abrams tank line. Humanity overlaps efforts ridiculously. I also see the hex design JimmyH provided as allowing more diverse sprites in unit actions overall. In the modern era I see little reason not to show off flashy graphics as long as the core game concepts are fine (which means AI work before including the individual dandy lions on the hills during spring)

I think it would be most useful to keep the graphics, at least initially, as compatible to the current game as possible, in fact complete compatibility would be ideal. But there's a Lot that could be done within those parameters:

Timed Graphics Events:

In-game, timed graphics switches could be done with 'nested' folders. This would allow -
Seasons
Day/Night
City Screen and other interface changes.
Etc.


New overlay types, maybe an "add overlay" option for existing overlay types? For instance:

Rivers: Wide rivers (navigable by river units), creeks.
Roads: Paths, dirt roads, stone roads, paved roads, modern roads, freeways.
Railroads: Train units only. Assignable movement rates.
Canyons: a variation of Flood Plains.
Variable appearance overlays that come and go: flowers, leaves (on grassland), parched ground (desert), floods.
Weeds - grassland that hasn't been worked in a while, must be cleared.
Scrub - appears on Plains that haven't been worked. Must be near water.
Coastline counts as water.
Bridges at road/river, road/railroad railroad/river railroad/mountain-mountain crossings. Era specific.
Extra Large terrain: for landmarks like Mt. Everest, Sequoias.
Buildable Fisheries (irrigation), Oil Rigs (mines) on coastal & sea tiles.
"Oil Spill" Pollution

Units:

Fix the 'AI won't use land units' bug. Big problem.
Add a "can't be stacked" flag for units.
Amphibious units. Definitely.
Change the 'enslave' dynamic, so that the defending unit decides what it will become if captured: slave, pelt, worker, etc.
Add Charisma, or a flag that allows a unit to "flip" another. For Spies.
Allow spy units to enter enemy cities to sabotage production.
More 'Barbarian' variety, including 'random appearance' Flag, for units like tornadoes...
"No Raze" Option, "Barbarians can capture cities" option.
A "slows other units down" or "reduces other units visibility" flag could be used for fog, clouds.

Other Stuff:

The ability to use multiple maps in-game (like Test of Time did) widens options greatly. We used to be able to use underground, cloud-layer, near space and underwater maps all in the same game. Wonderful.

"Add Culture" option, or "Add city type" option.

I like the idea of allowing work-boats to "work" coast and sea squares.

That's all I can think of right now.

Im with Shiro, make civ3 graphics compatible, or at least importable, to your project. At least the most important like units, LHs, city improvements, tech icons, and a few others.

That would make many old and new mod makers here eager to jump it and start modding for it.

You should request a sub-forum for this topic, im sure there are many people here with ideas and this thread will grow too quickly if its the only place to write them

Want to add an idea, if civ3 units can be imported and your project uses a higher resolution, develop an engine that can pick a civ3 unit, and clone it in a way to mimic how units are represented in civ4 and 5 (multiple units depending on hit points).

Some nice ideas; hopefully I'll be able to get more seriously involved when I'm back in Wales on Monday (or perhaps a few weeks later when I'm back home with all my stuff for the summer).

Some musings on Balth's post

Balthasar said:

In-game, timed graphics switches could be done with 'nested' folders. This would allow -
Seasons
Day/Night
City Screen and other interface changes.
Etc.

...

"Add Culture" option, or "Add city type" option.

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If at all possible, allow these kinds of things (and other stuff like radar towers and the like) to be scripted similarly, based on variables such as turn number, controling civ*, x tech researched by such civ, y improvement/wonder built**

*(And maybe a previous/original controler civ could also be useful. For example, Greece is taken by Rome, the cities which were Greek could be specified to have a different city style to the Rome-founded ones, these cities are then taken by the Ottomans, and have a different artstyle for them compared to the Ottomans other cities. The Ottomans take Rome itself, though, and because there's no such scripting for it, it perhaps just becomes a "typical" Ottoman city).

**e.g. Evil Giant Shield to block out the sun!

Balthasar said:

Change the 'enslave' dynamic, so that the defending unit decides what it will become if captured: slave, pelt, worker, etc.

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Perhaps a pop-up in the offensive unit's tab, which allows the enslave to be based on a unit v. unit basis? E.g. Celtic Swordsman defeats Thracian Peltast, gains Slave. Roman Legion defeats Thracian Peltast, gains Gladiator. Roman Legion or Celtic Swordsman defeat each other, both would gain Slave.

Balthasar said:

A "slows other units down" or "reduces other units visibility" flag could be used for fog, clouds.

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Perhaps a similar such flag could also be used to allow a unit to suffer health damage if is in such a tile. Could make, say, Russian Winters pretty scary (limited mobility in all allocated winter Russian tiles with blizards dishing out damage to unfortunate units within !)

Change unit requirements or expand unit requirements. Currently units require only resources and/or techs in order to be built or they can be auto produced. I'd like to see more variable and combination of variable for building units. Example: unit requires the building of a specific improvement. Cavalry need a stable in order to be built.. Instead of having a barracks auto produce militia, you can build militia after you build a barracks, regular infantry requires an infantry barrack and artillery requires a foundry etc.

And I think it was already mentioned, but all limits should be removed. No city limits, no unit limits, no improvement limits, no culture limits, no resource limits, no terrain limits etc.

I'd like to see better terrain modifying abilites than in C3C.

As Gojira54 mentioned we need to create a distinction between base terrains and overlays and both should be added/removed with ease. Also elevation levels both in land and water would be nice. Then there is the customizable visibility/movability/combat modifier settings for certain terrains which is a must have.

A more flexible approach to worker jobs, tile improvements and resources would be nice too. And the AI should make sense in using them unlike C3C.

At a deeper level it would be nice to give more parameters to the random map generator, like the vastness of resources, certain formations, average elevation level etc. A sensible parameterizing which terrain goes which longitude is also necessary so new terrain types won't be a problem. Maybe a similar parameterizing of AI usage of worker jobs/tile improvements would also be a healthy addition.

Some great ideas coming in here, I still want to hear what people would want in terms of being able to mod some thing. And just generally generate interest, obviously you wouldn't want to take on this huge task if no one is going to use it.

As for specific features, they can be added as they are requested.

I would imagine getting a working map with civ3 map graphics would be a good place to start. Obviously things like AI, multiplayer are huge tasks, so they would have to wait until people are able to start building the mods they want to create.

And what could this endeavour be called?

Jimmyh said:

Some great ideas coming in here, I still want to hear what people would want in terms of being able to mod some thing. And just generally generate interest, obviously you wouldn't want to take on this huge task if no one is going to use it.

As for specific features, they can be added as they are requested.

I would imagine getting a working map with civ3 map graphics would be a good place to start. Obviously things like AI, multiplayer are huge tasks, so they would have to wait until people are able to start building the mods they want to create.

And what could this endeavour be called?

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Does it really matter?
What is it you are planning to do? Are you going to create an entirely new game engine/platfororm?. Are you going to edit/rewrite the current programing? Design a new game on a different engine? Will you be writing all the code yourself or will this be a joint effort? I'm sure you realise that the conquest.exe file alone contains more that 43,000 lines of code. Will it open sourced?

I am not try to be negative, I'm just curious. And maybe I can give you a head start. There is game called Free Civ that IS open sourced. Very similar to civ but the graphics is are what most here would find extremely . . . . elementary, however, it may prove to be a worthwhile starting point. I don't know what language it is written in or how clean and orderly the coding is, but like I said, it might be worth a look.

The Guardian said:

Does it really matter?
What is it you are planning to do? Are you going to create an entirely new game engine/platfororm?. Are you going to edit/rewrite the current programing? Design a new game on a different engine? Will you be writing all the code yourself or will this be a joint effort? I'm sure you realise that the conquest.exe file alone contains more that 43,000 lines of code. Will it open sourced?

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Well I would like to create a platform for people to be able to create the mods they want.
Editing or rewriting the current programming is not possible since we dont have access to the source code. So I guess you would call it a new game with a new engine. I'm in no rush so yes if it gets to that stage I will be writing this my self. There could be some source code released that is not part of the engine.

The Guardian said:

I am not try to be negative, I'm just curious. And maybe I can give you a head start. There is game called Free Civ that IS open sourced. Very similar to civ but the graphics is are what most here would find extremely . . . . elementary, however, it may prove to be a worthwhile starting point. I don't know what language it is written in or how clean and orderly the coding is, but like I said, it might be worth a look.

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There are plenty of negative people on the internet, I'm kinda used to it. Every one expects you to fail.

I had a look at FreeCiv some time ago and the code was an uncommented mess. I think it was written in C at the time, they may have moved onto C++ since then. Also looking through some one else's code is not what I would call fun. And if your going to do that you may as well mod civ4.

This is some thing I want to get involved in, more like a long term project to keep me busy in the evenings.