Han Dynasty in Middle Earth

I am not sure if this is the right thread to post this in because I want to see what would happen if a Q like being where to transport all of Han china and all of their stuff and armys and land just off the borders of Ruhn in middle earth during the third age? How much of a threat could the Han Dynasty be to the peoples of middle earth or how well would they get a long with them?

Sorry if this sounds like a weird thread but I had this on my mind and was wondering about this and would like to know what would happen if the Han where in middle earth. I am not sure if this is historical or not but I add historical elements to it.

They would get destroyed by the Numenorans because Tolkien was a rasist.

Kraznaya said:

They would get destroyed by the Numenorans because Tolkien was a rasist.

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This is third age middle earth the country is Gondor not Numenor.

Zheng He will win

They would join up with Sauron because they were not one of the fair and noble men of the West, what else? By implication, that means they would be defeated together with the rest, especially because, you know, the Chinese were accustomed to having a Great Leader at the helm, and his defeat would spell doom for the Chinese state.

If we were to look at this seriously, the Han would be in a cruddy position. The lands of Rhun were blasted into oblivion by the Last Alliance (Aragorn comments on the nature of the Brown Lands) so the Han would be unable to raise any cities and they would be starving. Furthermore, further east then most maps go, there are some other Dwarven clans, the Avari (Dark Elves), and the two Blue Wizards who would cause the Han no end of troubes (and that is assuming the Han did not join up with the Enemy).

If we were to look at this from a military point of view, it depends on what time in the Third Age. If it was during the early Third Age Gondor would have no problem holding them off. If memory serves Romendacil ruthlessly exterminated the Balcoth after they crossed the Anduin. Later, the Oath of Eorl resulted in the Men of the West being able to rountinely defeat the forces of Rhun. The forces of Rhun only did well during Corsair Invasions or during the Kinstrife.
Even if the armies of Gondor were destroyed, Gondor still had the Rammas Echor and the Othram (which was built of the same unbreakable stone made by the Numenorians that was used in the Orthanc).

In short, Han China has no hope of victory. They have poor land, a poor starting position, and are faced by the best combined forces ever seen on Middle Earth since Feanor landed in Beleriand.

Does the OP mean putting literal geographic China in place of Rhun or just sticking Han China in what's already there? If you just put them in Rhun you take away most of their advantages and it's not really China at all anymore.

Anyways, since this question does amuse me (in a good way, not condescending way), if they side with the West, they are going to be amongst the first in Sauron's path and face a huge onslaught of barbarian hordes (so I guess that part still rings true), and if they side with Sauron, they are too far from the important front lines to make a difference. I don't remember exactly how far the Sea of Rhun is from the Lonely Mountain and Laketown and all that, but they might have potential to cause some chaos up there in conjunction with some Orc armies there. My guess is the Chinese wouldn't be too fond of the Orcs though, since they are so destructive and chaotic.

I don't remember exactly how far the Sea of Rhun is from the Lonely Mountain and Laketown and all that, but they might have potential to cause some chaos up there in conjunction with some Orc armies there.

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If memory serves, during the War of the Ring the Men of Rhun mounted a massive attack against Dale/Erebor killing the King of Dale, buring Dale and Esgaroth to the ground, besieging the Lonely Mountain, but were driven off by the Dwarves of Erebor and the refugees of Dale.

bombshoo said:

Does the OP mean putting literal geographic China in place of Rhun or just sticking Han China in what's already there? If you just put them in Rhun you take away most of their advantages and it's not really China at all anymore.

Anyways, since this question does amuse me (in a good way, not condescending way), if they side with the West, they are going to be amongst the first in Sauron's path and face a huge onslaught of barbarian hordes (so I guess that part still rings true), and if they side with Sauron, they are too far from the important front lines to make a difference. I don't remember exactly how far the Sea of Rhun is from the Lonely Mountain and Laketown and all that, but they might have potential to cause some chaos up there in conjunction with some Orc armies there. My guess is the Chinese wouldn't be too fond of the Orcs though, since they are so destructive and chaotic.

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Yes I mean that the Chinese geological land is also transported beyond the Rhun land.

I wonder how much of a threat they could pose to the Elves in middle earth if they where there? I wonder what would the elves think of them.

I wonder how much of a threat they could pose to the Elves in middle earth if they where there? I wonder what would the elves think of them.

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If the Han were transported beyond Rhun (to where the Elven and Men awoke) they would have no bearing on the events of the War of the Ring. They would be fighting Dwarven Clans, Variags, Khand, Avari, and the Easterlings.

The Elves would pay them as much attention in the last days of the Third Days as they payed to anyone else: nothing. They were well on their way to becoming a rustic folk of hill and glade.

Ajidica said:

If memory serves, during the War of the Ring the Men of Rhun mounted a massive attack against Dale/Erebor killing the King of Dale, buring Dale and Esgaroth to the ground, besieging the Lonely Mountain, but were driven off by the Dwarves of Erebor and the refugees of Dale.

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I remember this now. Actually, I can't remember where I read this..In some abridged version of The Unfinished Tales I believe, but if memory serves right, the entire reason Gandalf encouraged the expedition that took place in The Hobbit was because he knew all of Rhovanion would fall if an attack was launched by The Enemy and Smaug was also still around. It might have just been retconning by Tolkien, but I think it still adds another cool layer of depth to the whole series.

Could the Han Dynasty conquer the easternlings if they(easternlings) had no help from mordor at all? How far would you think that they would have conquered? Or how much land do you think that they would gain?

Ajidica said:

If we were to look at this seriously, the Han would be in a cruddy position. The lands of Rhun were blasted into oblivion by the Last Alliance (Aragorn comments on the nature of the Brown Lands) so the Han would be unable to raise any cities and they would be starving. Furthermore, further east then most maps go, there are some other Dwarven clans, the Avari (Dark Elves), and the two Blue Wizards who would cause the Han no end of troubes (and that is assuming the Han did not join up with the Enemy).

If we were to look at this from a military point of view, it depends on what time in the Third Age. If it was during the early Third Age Gondor would have no problem holding them off. If memory serves Romendacil ruthlessly exterminated the Balcoth after they crossed the Anduin. Later, the Oath of Eorl resulted in the Men of the West being able to rountinely defeat the forces of Rhun. The forces of Rhun only did well during Corsair Invasions or during the Kinstrife.
Even if the armies of Gondor were destroyed, Gondor still had the Rammas Echor and the Othram (which was built of the same unbreakable stone made by the Numenorians that was used in the Orthanc).

In short, Han China has no hope of victory. They have poor land, a poor starting position, and are faced by the best combined forces ever seen on Middle Earth since Feanor landed in Beleriand.

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You have to make a comparison between army sizes, technology, logistics, etc.

Rememebr also the Dunedain had thrice the lifespan of normal men and were taller then us. The size of there swords and spears etc would be larger just to suit there size. A 2 and a half metre sword vs 5"5 foot peasant.
Also a more useful (to discussion) time peroid then just "during the third age" - it could be during the peak of Gondor's reign when they owned the havens of Umbar and when the realm stretched as far north as isengard or toward the end of the age when they were weak and kingless!

Set a time peroid. Then we can ask Christopher Tolkein for estimated army size of Gondor

..but yeah depending on how far East they were - they would have to compete with Easterlings, variags, dark-elves and the rest of the istari.

Minor Quibble: Until about halfway through the Third Age (if I remember the timeline right), the realm of Gondor stretched from the Havens of Umbar all the way up to the Ice Bay of Forochel.

Could the Han Dynasty conquer the easternlings if they(easternlings) had no help from mordor at all? How far would you think that they would have conquered? Or how much land do you think that they would gain?

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If what you are proposing occurs, the eastern Easterlings fight the Han. The Han win but get bogged down in the endless steppes. The western Easterlings continue to invade the lands of Gondor and Rohan.

Umm.. Ok bad place to put the Han which peoples of middle earth do you think that the Han would beable to defeat?

how about we put them past Mirkwood on the map maybe that might be better.

Where past Mirkwood? If they are in the Vales of Anduin they have to face constant raids by the Orcs of the Misty Mountains and I doubt the woodsmen/beornings would take kindly to them. If they want to expand they run into problem. North, they run into the Orcs of Gundabad. South, Lothlorien, Gondor/Rohan, and later, Isengard. If they were by some miracle able to cross the Misty Mountains and were able to deal with the Goblins and Trolls, they would have to face the Dunadain Rangers and the remnants of the Noldorin in Imladris. The Elvenking of Mirkwood might also get involved. The Silvan Elves (with their Sindarin king) are far stronger and more likely to take an active role in Middle Earth then their Noldorin brethren.

If the Han were put to the east of Mirkwood, they would have to fight againt the Elves of Mirkwood, the Men of Dale with their Dwarven allies. Given the Dwarves/Dale were able to repulse the Easterling Invasion during the War of the Ring, I would assume they would have no problem repulsing the Han.

If they are North of Mirkwood then they have to face the Dwarves of Erebor (and their brethren from the Iron Hills) and the Orcs of Gundabad.

If they are placed south of Mirkwood, they would have to fight Dol Guldur and scratch out a living in the Brown Lands. If they expand south they get to fight Mordor/Gondor/Rangers of Ithilien. North, they get Dol Guldur which was only broken by the might of the Lady Galadriel and Celeborn. East they get more blasted lands and Easterlings. West, they get either Gondor, Rohan, or Isengard.

How many Han are you talking about coming to Middle Earth and at what time during the Third Age? You might be able to find some sucess placing them in Arnor during the late Third Age when their only protectors were the Dunadain Rangers in the Grey Company and some Elves. Alternatively they could be placed south of Harad along the coast. We know even less about that then we do of the lands of the Easterlings.

Ajidica said:

Minor Quibble: Until about halfway through the Third Age (if I remember the timeline right), the realm of Gondor stretched from the Havens of Umbar all the way up to the Ice Bay of Forochel.


If what you are proposing occurs, the eastern Easterlings fight the Han. The Han win but get bogged down in the endless steppes. The western Easterlings continue to invade the lands of Gondor and Rohan.

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Thats if you include the Kingdom of Arnor, which you probably shouldn't.

I would place them alongside the Elves like nearby Imladris.

I think the Elves would take kindly to you. Remember when the Nolder entered Middle Earth and met the Naugrim (Dwarfs) who were not even in the music of Illuvater - good old fashioned trade brought them closer together and I'm sure the Handy people would bring something of value...

lol @ all this reckless speculation and nonsense

Quackers said:

Thats if you include the Kingdom of Arnor, which you probably shouldn't.

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Any reason why you wouldn't? They were both settled by the heirs of Elendil the Tall (Arnor was actualy settled by Elendil's eldest son, making it the senior realm), were both populated by Dunadain, and cooperated quite a bit. When Arnor was collapsing one of the Gondoring kings sent a great fleet up north to either Forochel or Mithlond where it was likened to the landing of the Noldor.

Quackers said:

I would place them alongside the Elves like nearby Imladris.
I think the Elves would take kindly to you. Remember when the Nolder entered Middle Earth and met the Naugrim (Dwarfs) who were not even in the music of Illuvater - good old fashioned trade brought them closer together and I'm sure the Handy people would bring something of value...

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Close to Imladris could work. Far enough away from any real power and Arnor is in no position to fight as they are already occupied with the Evil Men of Rhudaur and the forces of the Witch King of Angmar.

lol @ all this reckless speculation and nonsense

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At least this is more fun and productive then the politics going on in OT.