OCC Emperor strategies_Early game

Probably such topics were long time ago, so in this case excuse me for this thread. And for my English as well) But nowadays i don't see any discussion of such type for civ1.

At first, a couple of words, how i try to play OCC Emperor.

I distingiush two types of this game:

1) Pure one city game with launching Spaceship. If you get AI's city though culture flipping, than try to abandon it ASAP. E.g., put all specialists as taxmans, and then produce a settler and delete it.

2) It's not allowed to build with settler more than one city. But it's possible to conquer AI cities. So, there two types of game again:
2a) without diplomats and bribing
2b) with diplomats



I try to win according to case (1). So I need some good planning to get techleading.
One of the purposes of this thread to ask veterans of civ1 -
"What is the best tech ordering and build ordering in the early game (before 1 AD)?"


I tried about 30-50 times. I always have printed techtree and other stuff near my hands and eyes, but i don't understand which strategy gives most benefit.

Ok, we would like to win with some kind of average (standart) city placing. For example, one can find often fish (or two) in cities BFC. But gold or gems are quite rare. Oil or coal are rare also. Rivers are fine. So, let our city has 1 fish + 1 horse, or 2 fish, or 1 jems + 1 fish, that is a starting place that can be easily find by moving a settler about 10-15 turns. If we start with 2 settlers, then restart. If we find city form a hut, then restart (reload), ideally we want no huts, but some coins, or troops will help a little bit. We don't want to build Colossus since its like a gambling and we want a strong strategy. It's considerably easier to play with Colossus.

Wonders: We want a couple of important wonders, that we can build 100% (whether with prebuild or caravans). They are copernicus obs (never expires - civilopedia lies about expiring after automobiles, and gives x2 boost for total science, this is huge), newtons college (considerably boosts science, expires after nuclear fission, which is not necessary for our strategy and rather late), darwins voyage (just helps a little bit for one city civ), seti program (never expires and boosts science, but actually i didn't see big differ; probably it interacts with newtons college), united nations (we won't give any more techs or gold for stupid AI), cure for cancer (allows to grow city upto 28 pop, but i don't know yet whether it is with shakespeares theatre), appolo programm (for spaceship).

Our goal to have Railroad asap. Well, with gold and extra starting settler it's possible before 1AD (iirc).

Rules:
- Generated world is standard (normal water, normal whethear etc.)
- Difficulty Emperor
- Start with one settler, no cities from hut, we don't build more than one city, we don't conquer cities (if it's by accident then we abandon them)
- Some kind of usual start - city couldn't be placed near gold, near oil, near coal, near two horses, near two gems, near 3+ fishes, but it could be a lot of rivers or a lot of dotted grass
- We will win when our Spaceship will reach AphaCentaura first.

Necessary wonders (i think i'd rather retire if i did't build them):
-Copernicus Observatory
-Newtons College

Necessary wonders (they usually aprove investments):
-Shakespeares Theatre
-Darwins Voyage
-Cure for Concer
-United Nations
-Seti Programm (??)
-Apollo program






Ok, what openings seems reasanoble?

1) Fast REPUBLIC and WLTPD, that is APLHA, WRITING (library asap), CODE OF LAWS, LITERACY, CEREMONIAL BURING (or BRONZE WORKING before CODE OF LAWS for CURRENCY, we can't reseacrh REPUBLIC since it has group 1).
Actually, i still don't understand when the best to build settler. Republic alone isn't effective, so we need happines and lux (at least market). Otherwise, we will have population 8-9 and have to put lux slider upto 30-40, this isn't good. Moreover, we need aqueduct at some point.
Now i see two possibilities:
1a) we go for RELIGION through MYSTICISM and PHILOSOPHY, and later we go for CONSTRUCTION
1b) we go for CURRENCY and CONSTRUCTION immediately.

positive:we have early growth and therefore potentially a lot of raw commerce

negative:no caravans and therefore no trade routes, we may be late for copernicus obs


2) fast ASTRONOMY, copernicus obs. BRONZE WORKING (no CB or MAS could be first), CEREMONIAL BURING, MASONRY (begin prebuilding copernicus obs), MYSTICISM, MATH, ASTRONOMY. Now we go for REPUBLIC

3) fast MONARCHY (to be appear)

4) fast TRADE (to be appear)

I will add some summary for strategies later.

Any advices from veterans and experts will be very helpful.
Please don't to hesitate to comment and criticuise.
May be some links or your own strategies, espesially with tech and build orderings.

If it's interesting for somebody then i can explain some things and write strategies faster.

Привет RedKi-rr. Good to see I'm not the only one who knows Russian interested in Civ 1.

It would take some time to fully understand OCC strategy. You post about OCC a lot in other Civ games, but I'm sure you've noticed it's different (tougher?) in Civ 1.

Maybe to make it easier on you, I can suggest some modified rules. In Civ 1, the AIs don't make their own wonders; instead, they're "gifted" wonders at random, without having to spend shields. Since the AI is cheating, I see no reason not to counter-cheat. If I were trying this, I'm sure I'd save every turn, and revert to last turn if an enemy got Colossus.

I'd need more thought and practice for a thorough strategic discussion, but I've thought of something at least:

The proper tech order, especially relating to Railroad, may depend on your geography. Consider what kind of tiles benefit the most from railroad. You can railroad ocean for an extra arrow, but I don't know if you bother. The extra shield from a production square is nice, but you won't have many of those. Without Colossus, most of your benefit will come from extra food. But how much food do you need? If you were building on a 4-tile island or a thin peninsula, that extra food would be crucial to help you work more ocean squares, and might be your biggest trade boost. In a continent surrounded by plains/grassland/river, Railroad may hardly matter at all. In that case, you'd look for other techs to build your population as fast as possible, like Republic/Religion/Construction.

Привет, Urtica dioica) It's nice to see you too) I think you identify me as Russian due to my style of writing?)

I like OCC due to fast games and even more important - it's possible to make fast tests on different items of the game. I don't think that Civ1 is tougher. At least the highest levels in Civ 3 and 4 are much harder. And Civ 2 Deity OCC is next on my deck) I din't play it, just read and obtain some strategies, moreover Civ1 and Civ2 are quite close, and there are no so many arcticles for Civ1...

Yes...lets AI cheats and "build" wonders and Spaceship. But we have cheesy diplomats and caravans, we have prebuilding and incremental rushbying. Isn't this enough? I just like to play using all stuff which is provided by game. So, if they can build Colossus at 3300 BC then we should have plan B (if we are not aiming for the super record) or play without it. Personally I don't like reloads, only if I'm testing something...Also I don't Railroad Ocean since it's...it's very unnatural))

Republic->Religion->Construction is very nice thing. I tried it in my last game.
By the way, I eventually won first try, with average start and no Colossus (only one fish and some flatlands). But I was lucky with political situation and with Copernicus.

Earlier I tried Republic->Construction->...Banking?...-> Religion, but in that case I was need more techs and lux. Early Republic is nice, but I still concern about caravans and Copenicus. Also I would point out that I found out that Shack's Theatre is not necessary at all...All happy building is enough, even without happy wonders. This lets grow up to 23, and then put slider at 10% lux. If we build Cure for Cancer then we can grow up to 28-30. But is it worthwhile? City size cupped at 28, then no extra trade, no specialists...So, Cure for Cancer is less attractive for me now.

Question - when do you build your first settler?

One thing I would strongly emphasize - commerce is much more important than produciton. In one turn its possible to make research or to build something in the city, and in my OCC cities it looks like caravan-research-caravan-research...So, back to commerce - now I try to settle near high commerce places, like rivers, ocean, and flatlands. This gives science, lux and money. And for spaceship city is just build 1 component per 1-3 turns...even if it gives 10 shield (and no pollution!). I usually try to have about 70-80 raw commerce without Colossus.

@Urtica dioica, probably we will try one competetive game comparing saves at 2000BC, 1000BC, 1AD for example. It's just interest where can be gaps in my strategy. But for this we should use the same rules. Also I have save from my last game, it's very good for OCC since only one neighbor - Americans, they are not agressive and don't ask much, so nearly ideal conditions to test builder strategy.

First, about the player's advantages. You say diplomats, but those are mostly good for bribing cities and stealing techs. Bribes don't help us in OCC, and the AI regularly extorts us for techs and money all the time (which we can't do so effectively). You say caravans, but the AI not only builds them, they instantly teleport them to the best city on the map, even if it hasn't been discovered. You say pre-building and incremental rush-buying, but the AI has a fluid shield box. It can buy any number of shields it wants, even to a point where there's nothing to build, and it can keep overflow shields after building.

Those aren't the reasons the player has the advantage. Here are some real reasons: a) the AI builds stupid improvements like Granary (see below), Barracks, and City Walls. b) it builds stupid units, focusing on giant stacks of Phalanxes, or Cavalry/Legion instead of Chariot spam. c) it spreads its cities too far, wasting space and not taking advantage of sprawl. d) its tech path is too broad and wasteful, with priority on Pottery or Chivalry instead of growth techs. e) it can't grow with WLTPD (this actually makes Granaries a good idea).

Other than WLTPD, or things like the settler trick that are more widely regarded as cheating, most of our advantages amount to the AI being stupid.

I won't argue against you skipping Colossus. It is the more "pure" way to play. I don't like reloading either, and I would never do it on a wonder past the ancient seven. (Beyond that, if you really want the wonder, you should get the tech first.)

So, if you don't reload for anything, and you don't railroad oceans, the biggest "cheat" left is the settler trick, in all its forms (which is really easy to activate on accident). Tell me what you think of that, and we can talk about when to build the settler. The rest - sentry cheat, units auto-transferring between ships, instant revolutions - only help a little bit.

Obviously you like to build Copernicus as early as possible, to prevent it from being stolen. The question of when to build it is actually two questions: if it couldn't be stolen, what would you research before Astronomy? and, realistically, how early do you need to get it to beat the AI?

Yes, diplomats are too powerful for civ1 and civ2, not for OCC, but even here they could be useful. Caravans are storages of shield, they are very useful always I think. Actually I didn't know that AI is cheating so much) But anyway I would like to play according to fair ruler. At this moment I don't want records, but just safe win, that can be achieved by everybody who knows strategy.

I very love this WLTPD and even in Monarchy. I don't use this settler trick, once long time ago I get it by accident, then I read about this at the forum, but I don't like it, it makes things much easier, like the second settler at start. On other hand I use diplomats and caravans to block paths for AI units, they aren't supported by shield. They can move near AI's unit, but not vice versa. So, this is not fair also) But actually I can play witout this thrick, if rules include it. Also I like to use diplomats when it's possible, but conquest win without diplomats would be more interesting and competetive (espesially to kill riflemen it cities with walls). Also I don't use transport chains at the sea. BtW, what is the senry cheat?

Okay, back to our strategy...when should first settler be built playing without settler trick? I usually build it at size 4, and then road anything,

I tried to build Copernicus as fast as possible, building other wonder and researching nesessary techs. When we get Astronomy we get Copernicus, and this is almost without gambling (about 2500BC) but then...then you need republic too, and it will be harder. I think 1000BC is rather safe date for astronomy. In my games AI tends to build it at 500BC or later.

BtW, what is your global strategy? When do you usually win? Which wonders do build? Do you boost production with factories? How many raw commerce do you have? And which size of your city is optimal for you?

I did some more calculations, and a test run up to about 3000 BC. Here's what I think now.

The best time to finish building the settler is probably at size 3+30 grains (or a few grains before). Your population will drop to 2, but the extra grains will bring it immediately back to 3. On the way to Republic, there should be time for some basic defenses (guaranteed death by Barbarian isn't fun), a settler, a size 3 city (for immediate celebration), and about enough time left over for a Library.

My best guess on early tech order is: Republic (defenses, Settler, Library), Currency (Marketplace), Astronomy (Temple, Copernicus), Construction (Aqueduct), Religion. Depending on geography, Mapmaking, Trade, and Wheel could be worked in somewhere.

As for city placement... You should have 2 non-city tiles of shielded river. If you can't get that, you should probably road some grassland before placing the city. There should be enough food to support every useful tile, and more than 35 potential arrows. Ideally I'd like about 15 potential shields, so you can have some units and still get 10 shields/turn (makes for good rounding and rush-buying).

I haven't done near enough testing, so blast away. Something's bound to be wrong. In particular, I'm not sure about the best way to defend against early barbarians.

Why do you need defence againts barb? It's enough only one militia (barbs can't kill him if he is in the city) and you build him anyway (like the happy police). Actually it's enough even caravan or settler. Probably diplomat (but i don't know).

Settler at size 3, Interesting. I usually build it at size 4 since I want more tiles for work before Republic (assuming that this helps me to get Republic faster, but I don't know). And I build library first, but now I begin to think that 2 beakers for 1 coin is not so good.

Republic, Currency, Astronomy, Construction, Religion, Trade...
Interesting, Trade is at the end. But every caravan brings about 3-4 trades, so, this is like cities size is +1-2 pop for 1 caravan.
In my last game I tried something like
Republic, Religion, Currency, Trade, Constrution, Astronomy, but it's rather risky.

Do you want starting (about 3.500 bc and some researches towards republic) save and some intermediate saves (about 7-8)?
If you have some nice starts for OCC testing (average area and without stupid always demaning AIs) I would appreciate it. I play maps with copletely standard settings. By the way...if you work all tiles and have peace with all AIs and all units are in the city then AI can't talk with you, isn't it?


I also suggest the following - if Copernicus isn't built before xxxx year than it's lost. For example, lets xxxx=500bc, but if someone have seen that it's built at 800bc, than we assume that xxxx=1000bc. What do you think?

Thanks one more for your researching on tech ordering!) How did you do it? Why did you decide to see exe file? This saves a lot of my time I think. This things about teching should know everybody, who wishes comfortable play civ1.

In defense of the granary

I suspect the granary makes sense in most OCC, particularly on a pottery start. Assuming 2 surplus food is generated each turn, the granary allows growth to size 5 twenty-nine turns earlier (5 is the maximum size that martial law alone can pacify). This is merely the baseline yield, since a settler eating 1 food drastically increases this spread in the number of turns required to max your city size. And if, say, we wished to work a coal or gold resource in the BFC, this argues for granary in the same manner, as that would mean an extra 29 or more turns working the resource at size 5. Working coal for that span of time is worth 116 shields, plus the additional citizens that worked en route- a reasonable payoff.

The math is not the real reason to build a granary, though. The event is. I am not dead certain that events can actually occur if you have only one city (that would invalidate this side of the argument), but a famine wipes out a third of your population and your entire storage. The argument for a granary gets stronger and stronger with your city size under such a threat, so you may as well get it done early for maximum effect.

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Also... I'd definitely reload against the colossus. I have seen it get awarded in 3300 BC, and I don't think arbitrarily "losing" the game on that factor is a sign of poor skill or decisionmaking on the part of the player. Certainly not in the same sense as suffering a famine because you skipped a granary and gunned for WLTK. Extremely few AI civs "deserve" the wonder at that date. If losing the colossus to the RNG means that you reroll the map and restart anyway, this is simply a time-saving measure. TMIT over in the civ4 forum would spit on the whole mechanic.

I would agree that a Caravan or Diplomat would stop an AI civ from entering your city, but I'm talking about the Barbarians (the red guys). Is there some special mechanic I've never heard of, that stops Barbarians from targeting you if you have only one city? I've lost so many early games, because Barbarians targeted my capital, and won 3 or 4 straight lucky battles...

My Settler timing is the earliest one that makes sense. Spending a few turns on size 4 pre-Republic sounds fine, depending on how desperately you need terrain improvement, and how good your extra tile is. I can't imagine any timings other than ours working, unless Tristan_C can defend my critique of the Granary.

My timing for trade was stuck at the end because I was biased from my simulation. I thought I'd have company on my continent, but I didn't. And because I thought I'd have a neighbor, I gambled on a non-coastal tile. (It had slightly better stats.) I won't deny that 3 trade routes (even bad ones) are a huge boost to trade. And caravans certainly help for building wonders. Thing is, if you don't have neighbors, you need Mapmaking first for the trade routes, and even that doesn't guarantee you'll find anyone.

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I'm skeptical about the argument for Granary. Fast growth to size 5 before Republic is a perk, but I only need size 3 once I hit Republic to start celebrating. Once I start celebrating my population, Granary is obsolete, and should be sold. If I get a famine (which are extremely rare), I can spend a couple turns to celebrate the population back up - certainly not worth $1/turn for the rest of the game. As for the pre-Republic era (which isn't that long anyway), be sure your calculations include the 60-shield cost (minus the 60-coin sell later on), $1/turn for every turn active, and lost productivity from whatever else could be built. If you don't get a Pottery start, also include the game-long beaker cost of researching it yourself.

It comes out to $50 every thousand years, which is paid-for in the event of a famine (an event in a very large, railroaded city can cost a few hundred gold in recovery). Granary is also part of maximizing the score; the alternative is cure for cancer, for a city will not otherwise celebrate past size 23.

Researching it ourselves can work depending on the sequencing of initial discoveries.
I'm less worried about the ongoing beaker costs for every subsequent tech in the case of an economic asset (if we reached that point sooner due to a granary, that is all that matters- this holds true for every tech researched and asset built), but more worried about the likelihood that researching it may ultimately delay The Republic. Here are a couple of scenarios that take into account that Rep is restricted from being seventh-in-line, after BW, wheel, and its prereqs, due to it being remainder-zero.


Be aware that I took up defense of a granary for OCC as a purely academic exercise; I am not wedded to it in any instance, being one of its staunch opponents in typical "city sprawl" play.

@Urtica dioica, Porbably we have different version of civ. Barbarians (the red guys) never could defeat my last defender in OCC game (this means that I have no more than one city since the beginning). I've read somewhere that this is the game mechahics. But I don't know whether they can win battles if several defenders are in the city. And I prefer diplomat and to bribe barbs. Usually I use unit only as city police.

After last game I prefer to settle near ocean (due to 3-commerce tiles), so I always can send carvans (and not to wait for barb or AI sailor), and caravans are rather important as shield storages (e.g.for Copernicus)

I also don't like granary (at least for average start), I tried it couple of times, with Monarchy and without it. I was not impressed. And moreover now I count every coin that I spend on maintance. The thing that really helped me was religion. BtW, I has famine only once in my 20 (?) games.

Is wheel so important for defense? Why not to pay tribute? Especially if you give Republic to AI and then get trade benefits.

It's very interesting that everybody has his own approaches. Republic->Religion, Republic->Construction, Pottery->Rebuplic

@Tristan_C, Why do you prefer to reload if AI build Colossus? Why not to try win without it with some other strategy? Colossus will expire soon anyway, but Copernicus not and the latter boosts better.

What do you think - probably we will try our strategies at the same map and with the same start? But for this we need to be sure that our versions of civ are the same (at least we can load the other saves). And we need to announce the strategy before starting. And we need come to agreement about rules.

Time to be surprised. There really is a rule I didn't know about.

It turns out that any unit, even a Diplomat or Caravan, can defend against (at least) a sea barbarian with 100% success in a city, at least in 3080 BC. The unit doesn't need to be fortified; it only needs to be inside the city. It works with both one and two cities, and in Despotism, Anarchy, and Republic. It doesn't matter if the defending city has a Palace, but I haven't checked the second city, where the first still has a palace. All my tests were done in the English version, patch 5.

There's a reservation though. I haven't tested with land barbarians (Cavalry). I did test with a barbarian Legion generated from a barbarian city, later in the game, in a scenario where I had 6-7 cities, and the barbarian could win there. I don't know exactly why a barbarian legion could win in this case, but not in the earlier test. There are too many factors to check easily.

I've never read this before this thread, and I never suspected it. I checked the manual and Rome on 640k, and found nothing. In the past, I thought I would be better off attacking the barbarian, since the odds looked better. I think that's why I kept losing, though there are still some aspects I don't understand yet.

I've read it somewhere, but I don't remember. Honestly) Probably in some article or thread for civ2. If i find it i'll write in private message.

BtW, I've seen that Copernicus built at 880BC.

Also I've done some calculation about build-ordering (Market, Library, Temple) and was surpised. I just never thought deeply about it. I think that it's well-known, but anyway. What should be built first? Library, Market or Temple? Let us consider that we build them immediately and assume that we don't need gold (for paying tribute or rushbying? no, it's needed for maintance mainly)
So, it's not good to build Market first, since we do researh and don't collect taxes.
If we build Library alone, then it gives profit starting from 4 commerce. For example we work 4 turn, at the first turn we accumulate 4 gold, the next 3 turn we do research and get 3*6=18. Working 4 turns without library we get 4*4=16 beakers. If we consider, that all our people are content, then Library and Market work wosre than one Library, it's easy to check the same way. If we have Library Market and Temple, that it gives the same result as in the case without building. For example we have 6 commerce and work 3 turns. At the first turn we collect taxes at 100% and get 9 coins. The next 2 turns we work at 100% science and get 2*9=18 beakers. Without buildings we work 3 turns at 100% science and get 3*6=18 science. So, in the ideal case (when we dont need lux) Market is unprofitable up to 3 maintance cost. When we add cathedral we can see that Market begins to help.
As consequense I would like to note that we shoul carefully choose when to build Market (actually and other buildings as well), since otherwise it could slow down tech rate.

I'd like to give a scenario a try, and see how much you can beat me. English and Russian saves appear to be mostly compatible. Bringing an English save into the Russian version worked well, with names of units/leaders/civs in English. Bringing a Russian save into English made all those names unreadable, as I expected (no Cyrillic font), but should be playable. I can play either. One interesting point is that Russian seems not to have a patched version, so we're stuck with patch 1.

One point I'd like you to clarify... You pointed out the importance of coastal access for trade routes, but none of your tech paths mentioned Mapmaking. When do you pick that up, and when do you build a trireme?

I hope that patches in civ1 don't differ much from each other.
I don't think that I will beat you, I usually waste about 10 turns due to different stuff (like forgetting that caravan building is completed at research turn). I even haven't launched before 1800AD with average start.

Try this one:
View attachment 291911
View attachment 291912

Unfortunately it's only 3000bc. You are with amercians at average island. I've researched some techs, but hope this will not hurt you tech-path.
It would be interesting to hear your dates and achivements (espesially at the first try).

If you have your saved games please upload them also)

Interesting question about mapmaking. I think I will delay it (well, I won't include it in basic path). The main reason of the coastal start - to be able 100% to establish trades at some point (without waiting barbs or rivals ship).

Also I gave a try in civ2...It seems to me that civ2 is easier. Diplomacy did step forward. The AIs don't ask much tribure and don't do this often. You gift them a couple of tech and they loves you...They come to you with caravans and you get free trade routes...Shakeaspear never expires, Nweton nevers expries, Copernicus never expires...The AIs don't build wonders for free (it seems to be). With 100 raw commerce at the city you could have about 800-900 beakers. Well, I haven't win yet, but I don't think that it is harder than in civ1. Oh, yes, you always start with 2 settlers at Deity) So, I will also try Emperor OCC in civ2. By some reason I like civ1 more. For myself I can compare with civ1 only civ4.

P.S. Please check your messages, I will write private message soon.

I have a couple questions to add:
Last game I built a mfg. plant, but never a factory. I was never offered the ability to build a power plant. Do power plants not affect mfg. plants? Or is there a glitch there?

Shakespeare's theatre... is it worth the 400 shields? It means I can avoid the 9 gold maintenance on colosseum/cathedral/temple, but it initially costs 100 shields more than that combo, plus you probably have a temple already by then (which you would probably sell afterward). It also means I can delay religion, which is otherwise a dead end, until toward the end of the game. And it means I won't be losing 10% of my trade to luxuries for a majority of the game.
If it is worth it, do I go for it before or after Copernicus? Meaning, research philosophy/medicine before mathematics/astronomy, or after?

End game... does it make sense to max the tax rate when you're forced to get electricity? The colossus is a major part of my productive capacity... but so much production will be required (if doing space race) after it expires, maybe I should just stop right there and raise a boatload of cash and simultaneously rush buy caravans? Wait til someone else expires it for me?

Does anyone have a ballpark on what year you should be able to get, say, colossus, copernicus, railroad, etc?

I didn't play for a long time, but I think that I can answer some questions)

1) As far as I remember 'factory+power plant' and 'mfg. plant' are different things. So, you need to build factory to be able to build power plant. And mfg. plant gives an independent bonus.

2) I think Shakespeare's theatre definetely worth 400 shields (however in civ2 it's much better). Most of benefits you already described. For example, delaying religion means that you need one tech less towards RR. It's a pity that the Theatre expires with Elecatronics (?)...
And I think usually Copernicus first is better. At least it's more important and I don't want AI randomly grabbed it.

3) I cannot answer this question about the Colossus. I play without it. And frankly speaking I don't do deep calculations. And if you want to save some money for SS you shouldn't forget about AIs...they like demands that money so much.

4) I would say that 2500 BC for the Colossus and 500 BC for Copernicus are pretty safe. I saw once how AI got the Colossus at 3300 BC, and you can't do it by 3300 BC with an average land and with no money from huts/barbs, that's why I avoid it. Dates for RR depends on yours land, with gold and gem RR should be before 1 AD, I think. However with an average land I didn't get good dates.

Thanks RedKi-rr.
1) If I build a mfg. plant first, factory goes away as an option. Does mfg. plant supercede both factory and powerplant? If so, I suppose I should always be selling factories and power plants once I build mfg. plants. Though Hoover could still act as a recycling-center-lite everywhere.
2) I think Shakespeare is worth it too, but I'm always building something else it seems like. And if someone else obsoletes it first, then you might be in a pickle.
3) I guess I should try a no-colossus game. But it boosts so much, taxes for rushing, science, luxuries, trade route bonus, trade route income, etc. If I get railroad quickly, it can mean +2 trade on land squares... so up to 41 total trade. I'd really try to get Copernicus so much earlier if I didn't have it, so I guess that might end up being a good thing...
4) That sounds good to me. I know the AI sometimes get them about 500 years before those dates, but it doesn't make much sense when you see Colossus built in 3300BC. Railroad by 1AD.... I need some work... lol. I think I got it around 300 AD in my current game which is probably my best so far.

5) One more thing, do bulbs required for advances double (or at least increase) again at 1000AD? It seems to have gone up, but I haven't figured out by how much.

I just figured out it increases by another 50% (so triple the BC bulb requirement) at 1000AD. Which is like cancelling out SETI. Also, selling the factory after building the plant doesn't change shields, so it is a good idea, but selling power plant decreases shields as if the factory was still there... strange. So I guess maybe nuclear or hydro is a good idea still.

In OCC, Shakespeare Theatre is definitely worth it. You can max your city easily, then turn off all luxury to focus on science and gold. You can also use combat units outside of city with Shakespeare, which is difficult under The Republic.

In normal mode, I aim to get Railroad before 1 AD, but sometimes if I do not get Religion, J S Bach gets built by someone else (and I rage) and I lose the 2 content bonus for all cities, which is very lucrative in savings of luxury.


A technique I use sometimes: Suppose I have 8 cities. As soon as I get industrialization, I build a factory or two in my productive cities, then start stocking up caravans. As soon as Electronics is discovered, BAM HOOVER DAM, and start building factories everywhere, and in no time I can build the rest of the wonders, with the next one being SETI, an army, women's suffrage if hasn't been built, improvements, and so on.


Mfg. Plants double production, and factories become useless, so just sell them for 200 coins. If you sell them (1 turn) before building the Mfg Plant, you get less total pollution, but the same level of production (unconfirmed). If you miss the Hoover Dam, or have cities on another island, get Nuclear Power and start building them Nuclear Plants. Massive production bonuses.

Later in the game, if I have cash and want to expand new cities, or newly invaded cities, first things I build after temple or cathedral to content people is MFG and Nuclear plant, then use the high production rate to build the rest of the improvements.


Question: How soon do you guys start caravan routes? What's your sequence? I probably make the mistake of delaying them until I have nothing to build in terms of improvements.