Immortal Minimalism, Chapter II - Genghis Khan

.: S e t t i n g s

Civ IV BtS 3.19

Immortal/Archipelago/Standard/NoHuts/NoEvents, using the first generated map.
First attempt, no cheats, no reloads, not opening/using the world builder.


.: O v e r v i e w

Genghis Khan must rule as a snob, lazy and egocentric prince of a small realm.

• the limit is 4 cities: if one of them is conquered, a new one might be founded
• any enemy conquered city must be razed if already at the limit of 4 cities
  
• war cannot be declared: a war may happen only if another civilization declares
• in AP religion war resolution only "defy!", "no" and "abstain" are allowed
• defensive pacts are allowed: if an ally is attacked a war might be declared
• in case of war any choice on still fighting or ending the war is free
  
• only 1 single worker is allowed: if it is captured it might be retrained
• if enemy workers are captured, the extra workers must be deleted the same turn
• in the case above, the choice of which workers delete and which one keep is free
  
• no turn can end with unhappy citizens: they must all be before hitting "enter"
• since the above limitation, to make things logic, slavery is not allowed, never
• mercantilism is the only economic civic allowed, unless forced otherwise by UN
• in UN resolution against mercantilism only "defy!" and "no" are allowed
• in any case, free market and state property are not allowed, never
  
• a serious attempt to build the Parthenon must be done
• a serious attempt to build the Pyramids must be done
• a serious attempt to build the Sistine Chapel must be done
• the building of other magnificent wonders must be prioritized

Scheduling: none. I'll play a short session whenever I will have some free-time to.

All saves will be posted about the time all the AIs on the map will be known.

Rules, goals and disclaimers are in the first chapter of this series opening post:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=424679

Basic concepts of this attempt: see my Immortal University game #54 (won) and #56 (lost).

This series doesn't have any educational purpose.
Better player than I am already excellently wrote all the needed guides and articles.

---

Comments?

4 cities, 1 worker, no declaring war, IMM difficulty? Best of luck.

I think you went crazy

coanda said:

4 cities, 1 worker, no declaring war, IMM difficulty? Best of luck.

Click to expand...

Mylene said:

I think you went crazy

Click to expand...

In my defense: I have done it on emperor in the Nobles' Club LXXII: Ragnar of the Vikings.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=288094&d=1303427229
But yeah, on immortal it will likely be another story.
It is going to be fun anyways to try at least.

By the way: SIP?

Normally I'd recommend splitting that much food up, but if you only get 4 cities then SIP does look like the right choice.

Would move 2W, no hills is bad with these settings
Btw there might be a way around most of the restrictions and still keeping it fun, but 1 worker sounds silly to me

err...i mean 1W, looked at the scout ^^

Mylene said:

Btw there might be a way around most of the restrictions and still keeping it fun, but 1 worker sounds silly to me

Click to expand...

I agree on being silly, it was just to reflect the "lazy" and "not too careful" arrogant aristocrat mood.

In peaceful games I do build less workers than the average of the players, I believe this is since I chop less and expand less (= less road needed), but still is usually 3 to 6 workers for 4 to 6 cities; here instead it will be from 0.25 to 0.33 (in case I won't find the room to found the 4th city) workers per city, so I will need to micro very well the worker tasks. It is also true that being an archipelago the land/see rate is a bit lower, and workers doesn't improve sea tiles.
And anyways, if I go to war I build more of them and keep all the ones I can capture, of course, to chop units and build roads to war.

I suspect you're going to have to decide very early what victory condition to shoot for. The only conditions I'd even dream of trying with these restrictions are AP, UN, and Cultural.

For AP, I'd buddy up to two other nations (hopefully one warmonger and one pacifist, so they tend not to like each other), bulb Theology, and spam Christian missionaries. Spread Christianity to all of my two friends' cities, and one city of each other civ; hope pull off an AP victory before falling too far behind.

For UN, it'd be about power blocs. Figure out early whose votes I'm going to need and whose I can do without, and focus on making sure my bloc is big enough to let me win, and won't support anyone else instead.

For Cultural, it'd be about manipulation. Get the AIs fighting each other, and use any excess production later in the game to support the weaker of the two AIs to try and make wars drag out. Get as much food as possible in my cities for artist specs.; plan for a late-game cultural victory (because with just 4 cities I won't be getting there early).

But I honestly wouldn't like my odds trying any of those strategies with just 4 cities and 1 worker.

coanda said:

Get as much food as possible in my cities for artist specs.; plan for a late-game cultural victory (because with just 4 cities I won't be getting there early).

Click to expand...

Ooooops! Thanks for pointing this out!

I cited it twice in the other thread (Immortal Minimalism Chapter I - Hatshepsut) but forgot to mention it here! Sorry!

Yes, a Cultural victory is the target. I know I have already done that on Immortal University game #54 with 4 cities, but there the leader was phi/org and the map was not an archipelago (so more hammers for wonders), so it was a bit easier. Now I'm trying it on an archipelago with an imp/agg leader which makes it for a challenge.

You already correctly pointed out that food and artists will be the key here, possibly in synergy with the Parthenon, the Pyramids, and, most of all, the Sistine Chapel.

---

First Session, turn 7, 3720BC
(first attempt, no cheats, no reloads)

The scout explored south and discovered another resource.



I eventually decided to settle Karakorum in place. I chose for a settler first, since:
- no fishing to build a workboat
- no tile in the CFC can be worked with hunting
- no agriculture yet, and except for the corn, no tile can be farmed without chopping the tile first
- imperialist +50% hammers bonus on training a settler
I know many would disagree with this choice, and is likely wrong: I just did what was logic to me here.



Some scouting to discover that Willem van Oranje is my closest neighbor.
Mongolia is not alone on this island, and doesn't like it: rule over a whole smaller island was better.



Karakorum culural borders expanded: a bit of micro to save few turns on the settler production.



Some more scouting to get few generic ideas on the next cities spots.
There is also the possibility to settle the zone where the scout (and the Dutch warrior) are.
Block the whole western part of the island might justify that early settler a bit more?
The chosen research was mining, bronze working might be kind of timed up with the first worker.
The generic idea is to mine the hills chopping the forests, putting the hammers into workboats and settlers.



---

Comments?

Comments: You look to be pretty much screwed haha! Sorry man, that's all I got.


Okay not really. I think there should be a city much closer to the corn on far left. Since you only get 4, they must all be pretty awesome. City in middle of tundra seems like a waste of a settler.

This feels like playing the Kuriotates in FFH2 by the way... minus, y'know, their massive advantage.

comments?

1) you're silly
2) you placed 4 "c" signs
3) you should scout out more your future city spots since you will have only 4 cities
4) the good thing you won't hurt much from maintenance :-D

from what I see on the map I would maybe plan only city 1N above corn, then I will send some galley to look for better land around on islands.

since you will have only 4 cities you need to maximize number of resources per city and the initial island doesn't offer enough such spots.
You should not settle marginal cities, you need stellar cities.

vranasm said:

2) you placed 4 "c" signs
3) you should scout out more your future city spots since you will have only 4 cities

from what I see on the map I would maybe plan only city 1N above corn, then I will send some galley to look for better land around on islands.

since you will have only 4 cities you need to maximize number of resources per city and the initial island doesn't offer enough such spots.
You should not settle marginal cities, you need stellar cities.

Click to expand...

Zechnophobe said:

Okay not really. I think there should be a city much closer to the corn on far left. Since you only get 4, they must all be pretty awesome. City in middle of tundra seems like a waste of a settler.

Click to expand...

yatta77 said:

Some more scouting to get few generic ideas on the next cities spots.
There is also the possibility to settle the zone where the scout (and the Dutch warrior) are.
Block the whole western part of the island might justify that early settler a bit more?

Click to expand...

Hey! It is only turn 7!
The scouting isn't over yet! Those signs doesn't mean anything yet: as I said, they are just generic ideas I added turn by turn, as you can see the "tundra" spot sign was there since turn 0! Without knowing how big the island was!
And yes, as I said, I'm thinking about a city in the area my scout and the Dutch warrior are in the last screen shot (this is the corn-silk area).
The distance from capital it is a bit too much so it is a long walk for an unescorted settler (the only help is a scout to un-fog the path), and the Dutch capital is very close, so Willem might settle the area before I can do it anyways; it is not so likely to be able to settle there, this is why I was talking about justifying the early settle a bit more if I will be able...

On final placement: the 3 "elected" cities must have the maximum number possible of workable 3+ food tiles (without biology) to run artists. As for chapter 1 water tiles doesn't have an high value to me, unless seafood of course.

vranasm said:

comments?

1) you're silly

Click to expand...

Zechnophobe said:

Comments: You look to be pretty much screwed haha! Sorry man, that's all I got.

Click to expand...

Ok. I don't bother, I'm fine with that.
No matter all the pessimism around here, I'm not pessimistic at all on my chances.

I might lose of course, but if I was giving myself 50% chances for a space victory on chapter one, I give myself likely over 60% chances of winning culturally (which is way easier) here.

The only true limitation is the single worker, as already correctly noted by everyone: but the 4 cities cultural victory was already done once in my IU #54, so I need to make it harder somehow to keep it interesting for myself: so Genghis useless traits, less land (= less hammers and less food) from an archipelago map, and the single worker limitation.

Zechnophobe said:

This feels like playing the Kuriotates in FFH2 by the way... minus, y'know, their massive advantage.

Click to expand...

Was FFH2 ever finished?
I liked it but then the main project kind of disappeared and many other Mods of the Mod come out.
And I was lost on what I was supposed to download and what the final new game mechanics would be, since everything was kind of undefined and unbalanced...
I really wished to play the dark elf civilization.

Thanks!

Settler first with 6 dual yield resources is not so good, especially when you don't get the 3 hammer tile for 5 turns.

You don't need to micro the plains hill, it will be automatic.

Given that you can only have one worker, and a settler first tries to compensate for the lost worker turns by producing workers from both cities, settler first is exceptionally bad. Your poor worker is now 17 precious turns behind.

About the limitations, hrmmmm. You can't even work the fish until you can run specialists AND raise your happy cap, because of the happiness/no whipping rules. And you at some point you can't stall with settlers anymore. Usually this few cities leads to massing wonders. And you're not industrious and I see no marble/stone.
And not leading with a worker means it's very unlikely you'll get the first two wonders.

I would try very hard to sneak a city past red to any marble or stone you can find.

Don't know much about unmanly wins like diplomatic/AP/cultural.

I think you have a big problem with SIP, with no slavery more than 2-3 food ressources are...hmm useless. There is the cow, but only 2 hills otherwise i would say that hurts in this kind of game for sure.

vicawoo said:

Settler first with 6 dual yield resources is not so good, especially when you don't get the 3 hammer tile for 5 turns. (...)
Given that you can only have one worker, and a settler first tries to compensate for the lost worker turns by producing workers from both cities, settler first is exceptionally bad. Your poor worker is now 17 precious turns behind.

Click to expand...

All correct.
However this second session showed (quite luckily) where the advantage is: settling earlier, settling where I want to.

I don't know on turn 0 how big my island is! I don't know on turn 0 with how many AIs I'm going to share it! And please remember that I can't rely on an early war to gain some space, and that I need powerful (food) cities to have a chance! So I need to be able to pick where to settle before AIs, no matter postpone a bit the production.

So yes, putting all this into the equation, adding the fact of the imp trait and missing both agriculture and fishing, and the none hunting tile to be worked, I went settler first here, no matter I know it is, production wise, definitely wrong.

vicawoo said:

About the limitations, hrmmmm. You can't even work the fish until you can run specialists AND raise your happy cap, because of the happiness/no whipping rules. And you at some point you can't stall with settlers anymore. Usually this few cities leads to massing wonders. And you're not industrious and I see no marble/stone.
And not leading with a worker means it's very unlikely you'll get the first two wonders.

Click to expand...

Mylene said:

I think you have a big problem with SIP, with no slavery more than 2-3 food ressources are...hmm useless. There is the cow, but only 2 hills otherwise i would say that hurts in this kind of game for sure.

Click to expand...

No problem with representation + drama. My wish is have lots of 3+ food tiles in the 3 cities. More I have of them, more artist I can run. Even a hypothetical +100% culture slider wouldn't be a problem, actually it is wished for a cultural victory.

vicawoo said:

I would try very hard to sneak a city past red to any marble or stone you can find.

Click to expand...

None. At least nobody can say I was lucky, if I build the 3 (at least) planned wonders and win this game.

vicawoo said:

You don't need to micro the plains hill, it will be automatic.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I know, stupid governor. Even if I switch it off, he thinks he's smarter than I am.


Thanks all for the comments: this kind of well analyzed feedback helps me taking high my concentration and evaluate better the positive and negative in all my choices.

I understood by now that mine is a risky and kind of silly way to play the game.
Please remember that I don't mean to teach anybody here, just have fun myself!
So, please, don't be afraid to contradict my choices telling your own opinion!
Feel free to correct whatever I do wrong for a normal (<- whatever this might mean) game.
Just please don't be too surprised if I'll play in my way anyways. Deal?

And btw, I'm perfectly aware that playing with just one worker here, with all those forested hills who need to be chopped before putting up a mine, is a huge drawback and will make the Pyramids harder.
But I declared so in the opening post, so now I have to keep my word.

---


Session 2, turn 7, 3720BC Session 2, turn 28, 2880BC
(first attempt, no cheats, no reloads)


Next scouting turn: HERE it is! Yep, this is a beautiful second city spot!
6+6+5+3(+2 from city tile) = 24 food using only 4 citizen.
Which means, at size 12, 9 artists with caste system + mercantilism.
For a raw output, with Pyramids (+representation), Parthenon(+pacifism) and Sistine Chapel, of:
(6x9=) 54 , (4x9=) 36 , ((3x9)+150%=) 67.5 .
And this is just from the artists, without taking into consideration science and culture outputs/multipliers from wonders and buildings as libraries, universities, monasteries, temples, cathedrals, theaters, ...
(ehm... all this if my math is correct (which is far away from being assured), of course! )
Yep, if it will be possible, this will be the second city!
Ah... mining is in, masonry next: without stone better hurry with those Pyramids!



Buddhism is found somewhere, let's hope is Willem.



Well, it wasn't Willem. Some more scouting on the north, just to make sure about the second city spot.
Willem is scouting around my capital in the southern area.



The settler is ready, the scout takes care of un-fog his path to the next city spot.
Masonry will be discovered the next turn. Hinduism is found somewhere, let's hope is Willem.



The settler is ready, next task for the capital is to train the worker.



Yep, it was Willem who founded Hinduism, and adopted it too. Cool!
Now let's hope that the religion spreads into Mongolian lands!
Masonry was discovered, bronze working is the next researched technology.
The settler continues his migration to west.



The scout step by step un-fogs some more.
The Dutch empire didn't found a city in the area yet!
Lets' hope to be on time!



The Dutch scout continues to scout in my neighborhood, which is good of course to un-fog the area.
A wolf appears. Uhm... 1str vs 1str+180%, ok I take the risk, it should be safe enough to move the settler there.



The wolf was killed, time to move the settler and found the city... doh!
Oh, no! (<- to be read with Mr.Bean voice and mimic ).
In turn 23, 3080BC: a barbarian archer! Well, that's immortal after all.



Who cares, I take the risk, again, I want this city before Willem settles the area.
From my experience, the barbarians will likely just jump around few turns before targeting the city directly.
Ah... train a warrior, and do it fast, will be the first task here, of course.



Let's train a warrior also in the capital, with a bit of micro, this is 4 turns.
And with only 9 turns left, the worker will be ready 3 turns before bronze working anyways.



The scout finishes the scouting on the north, all around the Dutch borders.



Warrior trained in Beshbalik, next another settler.
A bit if micro for an extra hammer from the +50% imperialist bonus.



Warrior trained in Karakorum as well, the production switches back to train the worker.



Overview of Mongolia. This session ends here.



End session.

---

I'm pondering that maybe I could go agriculture (in about 8 turns) >> (finish) bronze working >> animal husbandry next.

Comments?

@yatta

the unescorted unfogbusted settler by me was bad play! you shouldn't repeat it!

I think some of viewers will get heart attack... 2 parallell forum games and both gambit their 2nd city ...

vranasm said:

@yatta

the unescorted unfogbusted settler by me was bad play! you shouldn't repeat it!

I think some of viewers will get heart attack... 2 parallell forum games and both gambit their 2nd city ...

Click to expand...

Heh, his was worse, since he used his entire opening building that Settler!

Of course, knowing the mechanics for barbarian attacks, it was maybe zero risk at all.

vranasm said:

@yatta

the unescorted unfogbusted settler by me was bad play! you shouldn't repeat it!

I think some of viewers will get heart attack... 2 parallell forum games and both gambit their 2nd city ...

Click to expand...

Zechnophobe said:

Heh, his was worse, since he used his entire opening building that Settler!

Of course, knowing the mechanics for barbarian attacks, it was maybe zero risk at all.

Click to expand...

<friendly joking trash talking mode >

Uhm... alternatives?

A. Send a warrior from the capital = about 10-20 turns, I don't know.
B. Settle and Build a warrior here = 5 turns.

Sincerely, what would you chose, on turn 23?

Let the settler there, escorted by a scout, to be surely killed?
Move it around, to be surely killed?

Besides, the barbarian cannot see the city from where he is, so first you need the bad luck that he's going to move in that direction the next turn, and it moves by 1.

So... think about the _scout_. What is good for? Yes, moves 2!

So, keep it in the city, if the archer approaches, move it 2 tiles in the forest (tile W then SW from the city): I give you 5:1 that the barbarian will attack the city instead of kill the scout.

And this attack-scout move in the forest equals 2 more turns, enough to finish the warrior in the city.

Besides, it never happened to me that a barbarian takes an empty city on turn 23, 3080BC
(playing up to immortal, not deity level, yet...).
Instead I think they will kill a settler escorted by a scout.

I don't know if this is just luck, but I believe it is in the game mechanics that they cannot take cities so soon.

Ok, I probably play too riskily and arrogantly to be called a good strategy, let's just call it a play style.
I lose the majority of my games playing my way, but I like it so I stick with it. It is a game! It is my game!
And, no matter it might be a silly and inefficient play style, I kind of know what I'm doing here, in my silly way!

It was risky to send the settler there (again, it was turn 23!, so I didn't even know that a "human" barbarian could be there so soon! I was fearing a panther or bear at most, and was sending the scout ahead for that), anyways, ok, fair enough, was risky: but once the settler is there, what I'm supposed to do? Lose my settler and let the Dutch settle in my face?

The same about your game: I don't know why you got so much criticism for that, in my (yeah... silly) opinion was correct to settle once your settler was already there alone; ok, it was likely better to send the warrior from capital first (and build another warrior in the capital right after): but, once the settler is there alone, and you toke the risk to send it unescorted, what else you were supposed to do?

Sincerely, I was just only surprised by the "3 turn move" command to the settler: you never know what can happen in the path!
So I just said I would move the unit step by step.

I'm surely wrong, of course. But I believe this way.

<//friendly joking trash talking mode >

Sorry, I really don't mean to offend anybody, I'm mostly joking around (we are talking about a video game after all), and it was just fun to act for once like the arrogant one who knows better.

Sincerely, I hope nobody is offended by that, I apologize if this was offending somehow.

---

Next session already played, I'll post about it in a little while.

well the settler is mobile and in my game if i just would wait there with the settler there is no real risk to losing the city, only delay of growing.

I lost in some games the city this way, but usually 3rd/4th one not 2nd one.

As I read the barbs thread, it's normal behavior, since the threshold for killing cities is 3 cities/civ basically. in 2 cities/civ it's risky too if the barb is just 2 tiles from city center in which case I would see him (I didn't see the barb warior, but without fogbuster it was still risk)

If it would be on Deity... there every AI starts with 2 cities, so you are much much closer to the threshold then you like and it's certainly more unpredictable and thus the bad mood by some folks.

You need a fishing boat really badly. You've achieved a reasonable block off, and your land isn't that good, so scouting will help. Though you pretty much have to start pyramids immediately, since even if you find stone elsewhere, you won't get a galley in time.