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#1 |
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Philosopher
![]() Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: London
Posts: 14,851
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Ask a Theologian IV
This thread is a continuation of the original and the two sequels. If you have a question it might be a good idea to look through those threads or this one to see if it's already been addressed.
In the next couple of posts I shall give links to sections of the earlier threads where many things have already been discussed, so please check there to see if your question has already been asked (especially if you want to know whether I believe in God or what I think of Kierkegaard). I should make it clear that there are basically two meanings of “theologian”. The first is someone who thinks or speculates about God etc and writes what they think. Such a person is actually religious and tries to describe God (or whatever) as they think he really is. It was in this sense that Evagrius Ponticus, a fourth-century theologian, commented that theologians pray truly and that, if you pray truly, you are a theologian. The second meaning of “theologian” is the academic sense and it basically means someone who studies theologians in the former sense. For example, my old tutor is an expert in Duns Scotus, which means he studies Scotus, writes about him, and tries to establish what he believed and why – exactly as a historical philosopher might study Plato or Descartes. But that doesn’t mean he actually agrees with Scotus on anything. Theology in this sense has considerable overlap with history, literary criticism, anthropology, and so on, especially since the people or groups under consideration could be contemporary as well as historical. Clearly you don’t need to have any religious faith at all to do this, any more than you have to be French to study Balzac. In fact I think that modern academic theologians probably divide roughly equally between those who are religious and those who are not. Perhaps there are more of the former than of the latter, but it would probably depend to a great extent on where you are. So I’m a theologian in the latter sense. I’m not religious and I don’t expect to become religious, at least not through studying theology. I have a BA in Philosophy and Theology, an M Phil in Theology, and a PhD in Philosophy. So professionally speaking I am more of a philosopher than a theologian. Most of my academic research has been in philosophy. However, I have written quite a few books for a general readership on historical theology and church history. I have also worked in what might be called either philosophy of religion or philosophical theology, which is the study of theological doctrines using the tools of modern analytic philosophy. I should also specify that I mostly know about Christianity. I don’t know much about other religions. So feel free to ask anything that relates to any of this. If I don’t know the answer I might at least know where you should go to find it... Directory to earlier threads This thread is now in its fourth version, and we've had a lot of questions already. Also, certain questions keep cropping up. So before asking, please have a look to see if your question has already been asked. I've made this as easy as possible by compiling a list of all the questions that have already been asked. Click the links to find the discussion. The links take you to the question rather than to the answer. Bear in mind that sometimes the answer took a while to appear, so you may need to scroll down before you get to it. Some of the questions sparked quite long discussions, which may contain further information related to that topic. Also, in these links I have paraphrased most of the questions. Some were not even in question form originally, but I have phrased them as if they were for the sake of consistency, and included them here since they led to (hopefully enlightening) discussions. Again, if you have a question, please look through here first and see if it has been answered. If something like it has been asked before but your precise point hasn't been raised, or if you're not happy with the answer or the discussion, then feel free to ask again and refer back to earlier discussions. I have organised the questions under different topics, which are themselves organised into broad categories. Within each topic, the questions are listed in chronological order. Be aware that the categorisation is a bit vague and that there is overlap between some of the topics. For example, there are questions about the writing of the Bible under the topic "The New Testament, and the church in the first century" as well as under the topics that are more explicitly about the Bible. And there are questions about Jesus under the topic "The doctrine of the incarnation" as well as under "Jesus". So check carefully to see if your question or a question like it has been asked. In the remainder of this post, I list the categories and the topics. See the following posts for the links to questions. n.b. I have not yet finished updating this list to contain all the questions from thread III. Theology and academia Academia and writing Theology as a discipline Theology and other areas of life Theologians Religion The nature of religion The nature of doctrine God Beliefs about God God’s power God and time Atheism Proofs of God’s existence/non-existence The problem of evil Free will, determinism, and divine foreknowledge The Bible and Jesus The Bible – general The Bible – different translations The Bible – its reliability/truth The Bible – how the books that it contains were chosen The Bible – the Old Testament The Gospels and our sources for Jesus Jesus The history of Christianity Church history (general) Influences between Christianity and other religions/movements Antiquity in general The New Testament, and the church in the first century The church in later antiquity The Middle Ages From the Renaissance to modern times Modern movements in Christianity Issues to do with Christianity Faith and reason Science and religion Philosophy of religion Christian attitudes to other religions God, sin, and salvation Ethics and morality Different Christian churches The Pope Christian doctrines The history and development of doctrines The doctrine of creation The doctrine of the Trinity The doctrine of the incarnation The doctrine of atonement The Virgin Mary Saints The Eucharist Adam and Eve, the Fall, and original sin Heaven, the soul, and life after death Hell and damnation The devil Other things Judaism Philosophy Modern people Me Miscellaneous
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Try the Anglo-Saxon scenario... Or can you build an empire of Africa? A list of units. Sensible religion discussion. Please read: the truth about children brought up by gay couples. Last edited by Plotinus; Jun 24, 2011 at 02:55 AM. |
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#9 | |
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Student for and of life
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Back to the asylum
Posts: 3,110
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Quote:
![]() But here's a legitimate question: If there are two general ways of viewing human society, 1) as a kind of place that should be harmonious in order to flourish, verses 2) as an arena of constant struggle, which would you think best characterizes the world around you? I'm guessing most religious people view the world from the more "functional" perspective, that we are here to flourish and "make things work" so to speak. In fact one could argue, perhaps, that "making things work" is the primary function behind religion itself. For example, why do Muslim women wear veils? So that they don't present themselves as objects which men will fight over. Or why does Jesus say turn the other cheek? It's to minimize conflict between people. Those are examples of religion trying to solve social problems. And religion tends to do that sort of thing. But underlying all this is maybe the fact that we humans are in constant struggle over scarce commodities. Perhaps religion ultimately amounts to little more than laying down the "rules of combat". So people seek alternative means of waging the conflict. Why? Because that's just what humans do.
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Why is it I can fail to succeed but I can't seem to fail to fail? |
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#10 |
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Colour vision since 2018
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Pale Blue Dot youtube=wupToqz1e2g
Posts: 30,785
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I've been looking at the reasons why people think that Jesus is God (or involved with God). Even assuming that all of the miracles took place, is there a reason to think that Jesus is God? I mean, if the miracles took place, then clearly he's 'magical'. But, unless we've some reason to think that 'magic' can only be done by God (and I don't think there is*), we still don't need to think of him as God (or involved with God).
Does Jesus do anything that we'd really associate with being God? The only two things I can think of are: forgiving sin (or declaring them forgiven) and getting demons to obey him. Forgiving sins seems to be the province of someone being God. I don't know if commanding demons is. People present the evidence of Jesus being magical as if this is evidence that he's God. I don't think it follows, no? *other than that I don't believe in non-God-caused magic's existence, I guess.
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2.0% of income to true poverty (society only invests 2% to total charity) 0.5% of income to medical R&D (society only invests 0.5% to medical R&D, and leaves mental illness underfunded) eff hunger; eff infant diarrhea; eff malaria; eff polio; eff cancer; eff Alzheimer's; eff depression
You and me: pro-actively |
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#11 |
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One Day
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,791
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Jesus healed a blind man so he could see.
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....the Word became flesh.... the Glory of God revealed! |
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#12 |
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Unwashed, Slightly Dazed
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: the Freecloud mountain Track
Posts: 20,238
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And the Best Start of a Thread Award in 2011 goes to ...
I know this is (bordering on) spam, but I'll take the infraction to give a at the effort, clarity and most especially complete and utter completiness of the opening posts. It's much appreciated.
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I keep having this brainstorm
About twelve times a day So now, You could spend the morning walking with me Quite amazed As I am Unwashed and Somewhat Slightly Dazed |
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#13 | ||
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Philosopher
![]() Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: London
Posts: 14,851
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Quote:
I would say that society in general is a mixture of conflict and cooperation. Trying to see it as "mainly" about one or the other is probably a distortion. E.g. commodities may be scarce, so we are in competition, but by cooperating we can use them more efficiently. Neither competition nor cooperation is the "natural" or inevitable state of things. But that's just how it seems to me. This isn't exactly a theological question. Quote:
Given that miracle-working is, on the whole, not presented as evidence for divinity in either the Bible or in Jewish culture in Jesus' day, I'd say that the miracles are not meant to be taken as such and shouldn't be taken as such. On the more general question, I don't think there's any good reason, from a historical viewpoint, to think Jesus divine. I would say that if there is a good reason it's simply because one experiences him as divine. That is, if someone has a religious experience of Jesus, and experiences him "as" divine, that's probably the best reason (psychologically speaking) that one might have. And I should think that, if the early Christians thought Jesus to be divine, it was probably for reasons similar to this. But it's hardly a philosophically rigorous reason or one that is of much use to anyone other than the person who actually has the experience, because while it may be hard to believe something contrary to such an experience that one has oneself, it is perfectly easy to to do when the experience is someone else's. On forgiving sins, I don't think there was any idea that you had to be divine to say something like "Your sins are forgiven", as Jesus does in the Gospels. In fact Christian priests say the same thing today every time they pronounce absolution, but they're not claiming divinity, and no-one thinks that saying such a thing is evidence that they are divine. And so did Ananaias when he met Paul, according to Acts 9. The same chapter of the same book has Peter raising the dead, presumably something even harder than making the blind see. But neither Ananaias nor Peter were divine, nor thought to be.
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Try the Anglo-Saxon scenario... Or can you build an empire of Africa? A list of units. Sensible religion discussion. Please read: the truth about children brought up by gay couples. |
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#14 |
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One Day
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,791
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In Acts, Paul was blinded by God and healed by God. Ananaias did pray over Paul when God told him to do so.
The blind man had been blind from birth, and even he knew that only one from God could do this. This does not point to Jesus' divinity straight out, but it does raise some strong implications. Raising from the dead is not strong since Jews held somewhat to the ability of the soul to stay around after the body expired. Calling the soul back in would be a miracle, but not a great one. |
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#15 |
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Dremora Courtier
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 9,531
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Peter walked on water and healed the man who could not walk, Paul did many other things and you're missing the point about the story of Lazarus that Jesus deliberately tarried along the way so that the spirit would have been believed to have fled. I'm sure it was Paul who raised Dorcas from the dead.
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Dum inter homines sumus, colamus humanitatem. ("As long as we are among humans, let us be humane.") ~ Lucius Annaeus Seneca "The church must be where there is need, and homosexuals have suffered innumerable discriminations. If the church doesn't free people from oppression, what purpose does it serve?" ~ Dr. Jacques Gaillot, Titular Bishop of Parthenia “What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?” ~ Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi |
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#16 |
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Plaid Works
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 7,002
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How does the Torah, the Gospels, and the Quran compare?
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Formerly known as GamezRule. |
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#17 |
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Student for and of life
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Back to the asylum
Posts: 3,110
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I believe you have said that you are agnostic. If this is still true, what sort of evidence would convince you personally, beyond REASONABLE doubt that there is a God and cause you to discard agnosticism? I don't say beyond ANY doubt because I don't think the existence of God could ever be "proved" beyond any and all possible doubt.
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Why is it I can fail to succeed but I can't seem to fail to fail? |
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#18 | |
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Colour vision since 2018
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Pale Blue Dot youtube=wupToqz1e2g
Posts: 30,785
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!!!
That there're no exorcisms in John really undercuts my idea that exorcisms were evidence of divinity! I would think that the ability to command demons is something reserved for God or those operating with God's blessing (whilst 'magic' seemed to not need God - see: Pharoah's magicians and King Saul's necromancer). Thanks for that point. Changed my thinking. Quote:
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2.0% of income to true poverty (society only invests 2% to total charity) 0.5% of income to medical R&D (society only invests 0.5% to medical R&D, and leaves mental illness underfunded) eff hunger; eff infant diarrhea; eff malaria; eff polio; eff cancer; eff Alzheimer's; eff depression
You and me: pro-actively |
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#19 |
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The Original Party Worm
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How have scientific discoveries about the physiological mechanisms of our thoughts and emotions entered into discussions about the nature of free will and the soul among modern Christian thinkers?
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Come party in #fiftychat! [185311] <@Mars> I have never fondled a moose. [185314] <@Mars> I did not plan this well. |
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#20 |
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RELATIONAL VALORIZATION
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 12,508
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Plotinus -- do you know of any Christian teachers, groups, sects, or denominations of note that viewed procreation as bad, or celibacy as mandatory, for Christians as a whole? (I'm not talking about for select groups like Roman Catholic priests.) I'm aware of the Cathar heresy as well as the Shakers. Are there any others that you know of?
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