ACLU doesn't see problem with proposed laws criminalizing parental decision making

JollyRoger · Jul 7, 2011

The Casey Anthony verdict Wednesday sparked a Boca Raton lawmaker to propose legislation making it a felony for a parent not to report a missing child, while a similar campaign underway is demanding that Congress enact a federal law.

Hager said his proposed law would give "prosecutors another arrow in their quiver" in making a case against negligent parents.

Derek Newton, a spokesman for the ACLU of Florida, said he was just learning of the legislative efforts spawned by the Anthony case. But he said it was unlikely the proposals would be opposed by the organization.

"We just don't see civil liberties implications with these proposals," Newton said.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/casey-anthony-case-prompts-bills-to-require-early-1587287.html?cxtype=rss_state

For those of you that think the private sector and individuals are better at dealing with things than the government, are you against this law? I may feel that a corporation would do a better job at finding my child than the government. Why should it be a crime to not socialize the search? Why can I not conduct the search in private so that I do not risk my name being drug through the mud by the likes of Nancy Grace? Oklahoma, despite outlawing Sharia law, is passing a law like this that is similar to some laws that you would find in Sharia-influenced countries. Is Oklahoma going to the dark side?

galdre · Jul 7, 2011

I don't see a problem with that law - it is meant to protect children. I would seriously question any parent who did not report their child when it was missing.

JollyRoger · Jul 7, 2011

Anti-Happy Meal laws are meant to protect children. Would you seriously question any parent who bought their child a Happy Meal?

MobBoss · Jul 7, 2011

Well, I think the real test here is going to be is it negligence to not report a child missing after a certain amount of time?

I think most reasonable people would agree that it is.

amadeus · Jul 7, 2011

JollyRoger said:
For those of you thank think the private sector and individuals are better at dealing with things than the government, are you against this law?

Yes, because it's just another way for prosecutors to try and nail someone without having a jury convict them of the actual murder.

Here in Minnesota we have tax stamps for marijuana. Of course, nobody dealing in marijuana is going to purchase stamps and incriminate themselves, so when they do get caught, the authorities can throw a tax evasion charge at them and technically win.

galdre · Jul 7, 2011

JollyRoger said:
Anti-Happy Meal laws are meant to protect children. Would you seriously question any parent who bought their child a Happy Meal?

There's a huge difference in degree between the two. If you're point is that not all laws meant to protect children do so, then yes you are correct.

However, I would seriously question a parent who fed their kid happy meals for every meal. I've not really looked into the anti-happy meal law, but it seems a little mis-guided. If parents don't care about the nutritional health of their kids, then even getting rid of happy meals completely won't help. (if I'm not mistaken, isn't the law about removing the toys? I don't remember...)

JollyRoger · Jul 7, 2011

MobBoss said:
Well, I think the real test here is going to be is it negligence to not report a child missing after a certain amount of time?

I think most reasonable people would agree that it is.

Is 48 hours negligent enough for it to be a crime? Remember that you can already face criminal liability for falsely reporting a child missing. If you mistakenly report too soon, Big Brother has discretion to test whether it was a mistake or not through a criminal prosecution. Now Big Brother will have discretion to prosecute if you mistakenly wait too long.

timtofly · Jul 7, 2011

Would this allow competency testing? It seems to me Casey did not "feel" her child was missing. If the parents deceived themselves by trusting that Casey knew where the child was, then they could not be held not reporting the child as missing.

It seems to me another "after the fact" law, that would tie up the court system. If a parent "killed" their child, it is not missing is it? I guess one could forget where they put it or even forget that it happened. I think most parents do report their child is missing. Now if you make it a law that you have to report your child is missing after you murdered it, then the felony should be upheld. Then again a parent could murder their child and also report it missing and still not be held under a felony. :crazyeye:

BTW in this case suspicious "activity" was reported and "no" one followed up on it. The body could have been found a lot sooner. That is why it seems the "grand" parents were also negligent in this case.

Formaldehyde · Jul 7, 2011

Aren't there already laws which make it a crime to not report a death, such as this statute in Ohio?

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2921.22

(C) No person who discovers the body or acquires the first knowledge of the death of a person shall fail to report the death immediately to a physician whom the person knows to be treating the deceased for a condition from which death at such time would not be unexpected, or to a law enforcement officer, an ambulance service, an emergency squad, or the coroner in a political subdivision in which the body is discovered, the death is believed to have occurred, or knowledge concerning the death is obtained.

(J) Whoever violates division (C) or (D) of this section is guilty of failure to report knowledge of a death, a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.

Children drowning in pools is a frequent occurence here in Florida. There are quite likely a number of statutes which were violated in this particular case if that is what actually happened.

I also imagine that reporting a child missing when they are actually dead is a crime as well.

JollyRoger · Jul 7, 2011

Formaldehyde said:
I also imagine that reporting a child missing when they are actually dead is a crime as well.

Yep - lying to police. So you either have to brak one statute by speaking or another by not speaking. It seems you your right not to inciminate yourself has been stripped by a combination of statutes.

MobBoss · Jul 7, 2011

JollyRoger said:
Is 48 hours negligent enough for it to be a crime? Remember that you can already face criminal liability for falsely reporting a child missing. If you mistakenly report too soon, Big Brother has discretion to test whether it was a mistake or not through a criminal prosecution. Now Big Brother will have discretion to prosecute if you mistakenly wait too long.

Speaking solely as a parent, if my child goes missing, even for just a few hours longer than expected (or is normal), I would be on the phone with the cops about it. The age of the child would also matter a great deal, with older kids having more autonomy in their actions. In such issues, time often matters in being able to save a young child abducted or just merely lost, so in this case, I would think less is more.

In general, I personally would say a parent that didnt report their kid missing for two entire days negligent.

JollyRoger · Jul 7, 2011

MobBoss said:
Speaking solely as a parent, if my child goes missing, even for just a few hours longer than expected (or is normal), I would be on the phone with the cops about it.

And that is your choice. However, if there were a private entity that was very good at locating missing children and their methods involved keeping government out of it, shouldn't you as a parent have a choice to use the private entity?

Formaldehyde · Jul 7, 2011

JollyRoger said:
Yep - lying to police. So you either have to brak one statute by speaking or another by not speaking. It seems you your right not to inciminate yourself has been stripped by a combination of statutes.

Speaking of which, why it is apparently a misdemeanor punishable up to a year in jail to lie to the police in Florida, but they routinely lie to suspects all the time?

Farm Boy · Jul 7, 2011

I agree with the sentiment but the law seems redundant on the face of it.

stripped by a combination of statutes.

I would wager there are so many conflicting statutes that apply to every citizen all the time that it is well nigh impossible to be in total legal compliance at any point.

JollyRoger · Jul 7, 2011

Formaldehyde said:
Speaking of which, why it is apparently a misdemeanor punishable up to a year in jail to lie to the police in Florida, but they routinely lie to suspects all the time?

Because lying to deter lying is justified use of taxpayer dollars.

MobBoss · Jul 7, 2011

JollyRoger said:
And that is your choice. However, if there were a private entity that was very good at locating missing children and their methods involved keeping government out of it, shouldn't you as a parent have a choice to use the private entity?

Well, thats an entirely different situation than a parent not taking any action what-so-ever.

JollyRoger · Jul 7, 2011

MobBoss said:
Well, thats an entirely different situation than a parent not taking any action what-so-ever.

So you are against these laws that require notification to the government? You would prefer a carve out that creates a safe harbor if the parent is taking action on their own or with the help of private persons and entities? How about pushing to privatizing child search so that we get higher quality searches? In other words, you cannot contact the government until you have employed a private search firm for x number of days.

warpus · Jul 7, 2011

JollyRoger said:
And that is your choice. However, if there were a private entity that was very good at locating missing children and their methods involved keeping government out of it, shouldn't you as a parent have a choice to use the private entity?

Does such a private entity exist?

Atlas14 · Jul 7, 2011

I guess I agree with the intentions of the law, there needs to be something to prvent what Amadeus was worried about too.

JollyRoger · Jul 7, 2011

warpus said:
Does such a private entity exist?

There are entities out there that are good at it, though they tend to utilize the government, so it is possible that they are undercutting their own effectiveness.

ACLU doesn't see problem with proposed laws criminalizing parental decision making

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