G-Major 94

[img=right]http://www.civfanatics.net/methos/hof/staff/gauntlet.gif[/img]While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.


Settings:

• Victory Condition: Conquest (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
• Difficulty: Emperor
• Starting Era: Ancient
• Map Size: Standard
• Map Type: Medium and Small
• Speed: Normal
• Must Not Be Checked: No Barbarians
• Civ: America (Lincoln)
• Opponents: Must include Babylon (Hammurabi), Greece (Alexander), Korea (Wang Kon), Mali (Mansa Musa), Maya (Pacal), Native America (Sitting Bull), Viking (Ragnar Lodbrok), Zulu (Shaka)
• Version: 3.19.003
• Date: 10th July to 10th August 2011

Must not play as Inca.
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

I wonder if this is a good one for my new found early rush skills (Oh, sorry, I may have got stuck in 'irony mode' there)

At least there's no question of playing a peaceful OCC on this one.

Yes. Time to whip yourself hard. First learn how to do early warring. Done. Next step: Put it in practice with this joyous leader party as indicated. It's a smooth progression, forsooth!

I like the concept behind this one a lot .

Emperor, Normal speed - already a nice challege.
Island map - no simple chariot rush here.
Medium and Small - AI's have enough land to expand - no pushover like tiny islands.
Throw in an assortment of nut cases and protective AIs. Including zerkers and the king of the nutcases (Shaka) - Nice!

Looks like teching might be necessary to get a unit advantage. Not sure how far to go before shifting into war mode. Glad this is a major, might take several tries to figure out the right strategy. I wonder if I will get to build Seals in this one (don't think I've ever built one before)?

Isn't medium and small galley accessible?

I would assume at low sea level it is galley accessible. Of course, it means the land masses will have more room for expansion.

I wonder if trebs and maces will be sufficient? We will need a pretty strong production core just to deal with the numbers of units Shaka and Rags will build. A critical success factor might be having these two close by to allow a quick kill before they get into unit spam mode.

I assume we will need to raze almost everything as we go to maintain our economy. I wonder if GLH and Colossus should be built to allow us to keep good prod cities? Normally I would not allow any diversions from unit spam, but in this case???

The-Hawk said:

A critical success factor might be having these two close by to allow a quick kill before they get into unit spam mode.

Click to expand...

That's what I exactly thought too. Especially Ragnar...
Good thing this "strat." I scaffolded (if ever I try this gauntlet) is confirmed by a veteran in warfare.

Scary settings. With all those early UU around, and the protective leaders ... OMG.

I guess Stonehenge would help a lot here. Or would you invest those hammers in units instead. It's a cheap wonder, and with the charismatic trait it makes two happy faces per city very early.

Early rushes against the Bowman, Skirmisher or ... any of those here ... idk. The best start would be geting a few cities with all those happy faces to get some decent production, and whipping potential.

Of course, aiming for a start on the continent part (with stone) of the map is a must.

shyuhe said:

Isn't medium and small galley accessible?

Click to expand...

I did a bunch of regenerations and looked at them in WB. Once in a blue moon, there is an island bridge between east and west. I didn't count, but my gut feel was 1 in 10 or 15 maps. Might be a game breaker to catch one of these maps, but I can't see myself constantly restarting to get one.

The-Hawk said:

I did a bunch of regenerations and looked at them in WB. Once in a blue moon, there is an island bridge between east and west. I didn't count, but my gut feel was 1 in 10 or 15 maps. Might be a game breaker to catch one of these maps, but I can't see myself constantly restarting to get one.

Click to expand...

Use future starts to study the maps. It is quicker, plus you won't forget to check the locked modified assets box for your submission.

shulec said:

Use future starts to study the maps. It is quicker, plus you won't forget to check the locked modified assets box for your submission.

Click to expand...

Nice!

I'm having trouble making up my mind how to proceed. Smaller islands will slow the AI's down a lot, but maybe will slow me down too. I'm assuming I will need to tech to Astronomy, so this would be an issue. I'm also not sure about investing in wonders.

Well, need to start somewhere. I think my first try will be conservative (a.k.a. slow). So, normal continents and REX like mad. Maybe a few key wonders. I'm thinking Oracle for CS for maces to run my continent clean. Also GLH for commerce. Maybe Colossus, depends on my neighbors. If Shaka is nearby, I might not risk letting him live while I spend hammers on wonders.

I don't think the islands will matter much. There will probably be one AI tops on each island group that needs to be vassalized. If you're lucky, it will be Mansa Musa, who may beg for your protection.

First try abandoned. Two turns after I started, I discovered I was boxed in on a peninsula by the king of the psychos himself. No copper or horses, so I needed to send a galley to a nearby island for horses. Quickly settled 3 more cities, one to build chariots, one to provide horses and build GLH, and the 4th to claim marble and also build chariots. My capital was to build chariots, then Oracle. I then rushed Shaka with chariots. The war went OK, I quickly took 3 Shaka cities. However, all that diversion caused me to miss my CS sling. I decided my 7 cities were not all that great, so I decided to try again.

Hey people,
I've been thinking...usually, on high difficulty, we abort the tribal huts option, but I don't think it will have a really bad side effect knowing half of civs are far away. Maybe a tribal hut from an island will generously give us Astronomy.

At this moment, I'm torn between choices.
High seas, then snaky continents bring a coast connection.
Low seas, then I can have solid continents, like mini-pangaeas.

EDIT: I think low seas option is better for a quick smash and grab...
EDIT2: Frankly, each time I attack a scout at ~70%, I lose!...wth. I am beginning to fear more scouts than animals.

Tachywaxon said:

I've been thinking...usually, on high difficulty, we abort the tribal huts option, but I don't think it will have a really bad side effect knowing half of civs are far away. Maybe a tribal hut from an island will generously give us Astronomy.

Click to expand...

I suppose a tribal village may survive and provide Astronomy, but I would consider options that avoid the need for Astronomy at all.

The worst thing about tribal villages is that they may provide early Bronze Working, Animal Husbandry and even worst to the AI Civs. Many of the required AI Leaders will be a lot of trouble if they get military technologies very early and spam tough to beat units.

Tachywaxon said:

At this moment, I'm torn between choices.
High seas, then snaky continents bring a coast connection.
Low seas, then I can have solid continents, like mini-pangaeas.

EDIT: I think low seas option is better for a quick smash and grab...

Click to expand...

Your edit above is the correct choice in my opinion for a very early win. The map must "cooperate" of course.

I would use the map options that provide the best chance of a map that is almost completely navigable via Triremes and Galleys.

When the land is perhaps too far away for Triremes and Galleys, sometimes you can found a city to increase the reach of Triremes and Galleys at certain points that would otherwise be dead-ends where substantial parts of the map are inaccessible via Triremes and Galleys from where you are located. Sometimes a city's culture can change that more cheaply and faster than acquiring Optics and Astronomy.

Good luck, Tachywaxon!

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu said:

I suppose a tribal village may survive and provide Astronomy, but I would consider options that avoid the need for Astronomy at all.

The worst thing about tribal villages is that they may provide early Bronze Working, Animal Husbandry and even worst to the AI Civs. Many of the required AI Leaders will be a lot of trouble if they get military technologies very early and spam tough to beat units.

Click to expand...

Hey, talk about coincidence! Your post just appeared the moment I was going to post a trick that aspires to be quasi-fact. Choosing the leader to be your direct neighbours. Well, with MM, Ragnar, Shaka and Sitting Bull as direct neigbours, the risk of axemen is lower. (I want to vassalize MM...instead of killing him.)(Not sure it is a good idea to put Sitting Bull knowing he sucks doing research, but I don't want to fight CG3 longbows). Against chariots, just include a spearman or a huge stack of axemen. I discovered in G-Major 93 that an enormous stack of axemen approaching a city induces fear amidst chariots. Avoiding Astronomy is an ideal case and needs a bunch of reloadings. I seriously think that gauntlet is going to be the most extenuous ever...to me...that is why I start early.

Sun Tzu Wu said:

Good luck, Tachywaxon!

Click to expand...

That one, I'll need luck to kill easily the chosen opponents (4 at max) and a bridge between east to west to be created.

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I know leaders position is random, but I wonder if it is that random. Oasis mapscript is one map where position assignment can be biased to almost predictible. Will other mapscripts assign wanted position? Is it possible? Well, I fiddle with the concept and conclude that some team numbers tend to often in the same continent as me. I just begun the map farming and I'll see. Tachy is still in thinking mode.

There is so few discussion here...nothing about leaders initial position.
Too bad. Might be useful info for some.
Right, a good attempt is currently ongoing and leaders I wanted are next door as predicted. I have four enslavers (Woodsmans II warriors) and I have 8 workers by turn 44. Raggy is next door and my chariot production just started. Must kill him at turn 50 or before! You know what I will do with all these enslavers, Sun Tzu.
Beware Settlers!

EDIT: Just done CS slingshot at 975 BC (Turn 76). Raggy and Shaky killed. Sitting Bull is a sitting duck giving me so much slaves. He has copper, but he's too busy to farm rice (6th time). My chariots will eat him for breakfast.
Next step, make Mansa Musa a peacevassal...I hope.

You know what; I bode all these fortuitous events are for nothing because I bet no islands will make the bridge between the two continents.

I just caught one settler after all...bummer.

Tachywaxon said:

There is so few discussion here...nothing about leaders initial position.
Too bad. Might be useful info for some.

Click to expand...

Interesting, Tachy. We know how certain map scripts distribute the AI according to patterns around the world. e.g. Oasis placing you in the south with all of the even-numbered AI (iirc)
I'm still in thinking mode and haven't started a game yet, but your post urged me to look in WB .
It seems it is not as clear-cut as some other scripts, but if we call the AI: A,B,C,D,E,F in order of appearance on the set-up screen, then they seemed to fall:
B and sometimes E were sharing your continent.
The others were overseas.

I haven't seen a map with 3 AI on my continent yet.
My settings were Normal Continents, Tiny islands separate, Low seas.

(Strangely, this distribution is only true at Emperor. Completely different at other difficulty settings!)

EDIT: Oh you idiot! I ran my tests with the standard 6 AI. I'll report back in a mo after some tests with 8

Hmm. I re-ran the WB checks with 8 AI (like I should have originally) and things are not as clear-cut any more.

Yes, I got to share a continent with 3 or 4 AI every time instead of 1 or 2.

On a percentage basis, I seemed to share with the AI in positions 1 and 3 more often (about 75%) and 8 a fair amount (about 66%). I rarely shared with the AI in position 4 (16%) and only sometimes those in positions 2, 5 and 7 (about 25%)

So it would seem, if you wanted to maximise the chances of being on a continent with someone, you should put them in positions A, C and maybe H (using my ABCDEFGH designation in the previous post). If you wanted someone to be on the other continent, then you could try D, and perhaps B, E and G.

I've no idea if this is just statistical chance, or a weighting in the map script. Only more regenerations will tell, and I am now bored with that

My first actual game seems to bear out what Tachy was suggesting, and my research above, on distribution of leaders .

I chose Low seas, Temperate, Normal continents with tiny islands separate. I wanted Shaka and Raggy nearby. Maybe Alex too. Wanted Mansa on the other continent, probably Hammy over there also.

So I arranged the leaders appropriately and set MapFinder going.
The start that caught my eye was this one:


Not far into the game, I had met these guys:

Only a couple of turns later, Ragnar arrived, too. The plan looks a good one.

However, it has basically foundered on my inability to rush well enough, plus a bit of cowardice thrown in.
I reached this position . As you can see, I was claiming copper and had earmarked horses (more to keep these from my rivals).
I noticed that the 3 bad guys were on good terms with each other and all hated Wang. Seeing this, I decided not to worker steal from them, but to take from Wang instead. This went fine.

Building up my axeman army, I checked the relative strengths, using OB to do a bit of snooping. Shaka was mass-producing archers like there was no tomorrow. Alex was very lightly defended.
So here's where the cowardice comes in. I chose to take down Alex rather than go head-to-head with Shaka. I'm sure this was the wrong choice, looking back now. The bad guys have to be taken down before they become way too powerful. If I couldn't take Shaka down as my first victim, then that's because I left it too late!

So I quickly eliminated Alex.

Then I turned to Shaka, realising he had to go, and it was probably too late.
At the position I have reached now (150 AD) it is probably hopeless. I chose my moment when Shaka had most of his forces in the area near Wang. I took 3 cities from him, but he recaptured the best one. My military dropped low after losses. On the good side, I achieved the CS sling, and reached machinery so now I am producing macemen. No cats yet unfortunately.

At this crucial point in the war, Raggy decided to declare on me too. I had riled him by attacking his friend.

I can see that it has all gone too slowly and I haven't achieved the breakthroughs that I needed. But it has been an interesting learning experience.

Chalk the first one up to experience!