Stopping the Mohawk Warrior Rush

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Silverfuturist

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DISCLAIMER: this is based upon my experience so far. If my experience changes so will this post. :scan:

Mohawk Warriors require no iron... the moment Iron Working (IW) is discovered typically 4 warriors can instantly be upgraded with a 5th on the way. Combined with Honor (great general (GG) + 10% bonus for side-by-side) the closest Civ will easily fall unless they have an adequate defence. (A seperate topic, in Honor, going for 50% experience or +10% bonus first... :confused:)

If the defending Civ also beelined IW and iron is handy, then the turns it takes to mine that iron (or settle it) should happen before the Mohawks arrive, and swords defend vs Mohawks.:goodjob:

If the defending Civ doesn't have iron... Greece's Hoplites or Persia's Immortals combined with archers and GG should do the trick. But what about other civs... and what if they don't have a GG...:sad:

I have seen good players with enough archers, a GG, a strong location and tactics hold back the Mohawk rush. Plus, after the first Civ falls, the other Civs who paid attention should be able to beef up even more or form treaties vs the aggressor.:thumbsup: However, on a Pangea map, chances are not all neighbors will take adequate measures, and using the "Scoreboard" (Demographics) it is easy to see which Civ is in last place for Military, and how weak they are.:mischief:

Against players who are not experienced, the Mohawk Rush quickly wins the continent and usually the game.:eek:

But a greedy Mohawk Rusher will lose if the nearest neighbor with a military decides to take out this menace's capital the moment that second DoW is announced, that DoW usually means the soldiers are away from home.:lol:

At the very least, that Mohawk Rush can puppet several City States (CS) if the neighbors are strong, a capital plus several puppets is a good start IMHO that comes with free workers. :)

Another solution = play on an Archipelligo map. :cool:
 
I have vast experience fighting mohawks in duels.

In duels you of course should go IW first, especially when against Iroquis. AND get GG by policy. It never hurts, unless you are on different continents.

If you have iron, mohawks arent problem. If you dont then build few archers and a lot of warriors. Fortify them in hills and go for horseback riding. You should have at least horses near your capital.

Fortified warriors in hills have 10.5 CS, that is almost the same as mohawk's 11 CS. But warriors are faster to build. Also, be EXTREMELY CAREFUL when shooting with arhers and city! An enemy can wait when a unit has 5exp and then attack. If you wont kill this unit this turn, chances are high that it will full heal right at the beginning of next turn and attack again, resulting in you losing 2 units, but him 0.
 
Great points, especially about not giving mohawks free exp so they can get the full healing promotion.

I tried the Mohawk rush on a 6ffa and my weakest neighbor had only built 3 units, none of them iron... I use the Demographics screen to look for the player who is "last" in soldiers, if I met them the decision is easy. That player got abusive immediatly, calling me "noob" and "f@g" over and over, demanding a duel match, saying my strategy fails in the long term, bragging about playing in a league, saying I am a bad player, etc. It was looking like he wanted to sit back and build, and the entire concept of iron rushes was "beneath him," but if it is in the game it must be addressed...

From my perspective, the Mohawk rush is a good way to puppet a civ or 2 (possibly CSs) and then consolidate, staying 1 city for a while to get NC and policies. In addition free workers come with the deal. That absuive opponent probably assumed I was going to over expand and burn out, with the other players picking off my cities.
 
It's been this way since the dawn of MP games.

some people like a specific style and complain when you force them out of it.

As per the rush, yeah, spears/pikes work fine if fully fortified and you have archers. Terrain matters, so ensure you have the best defensive terrain. Once the mohawks are dead, slow march on them to remove any other threat they might posses.

Of course it does work, but so do a lot of other things, (Immortal rush, etc) so learn to deal with it. Keep in mind that he's going for a rush, so you could just go grab the great wall and expand into him/buy tiles around him. He'll get stuck and you can upgrade mass archers.
 
As per the rush, yeah, spears/pikes work fine if fully fortified and you have archers. Terrain matters, so ensure you have the best defensive terrain. Once the mohawks are dead, slow march on them to remove any other threat they might posses.
Click to expand...

Pikes? Not sure what you mean here... I thought we are talking about rush...
Spears are only 15% stronger, but 40% more expensive than warriors, so I think that is again bad plan.

Mohawks wont be dead if an enemy is at least the same skill as you, he will just stay near you.

Even if you kill this first wave, attacking him if not best choice even if you have swords. Just ensure that he will not capture any of your cities, and try to look as if you are going to attack him (but dont attack).
Of course it does work, but so do a lot of other things, (Immortal rush, etc) so learn to deal with it. Keep in mind that he's going for a rush, so you could just go grab the great wall and expand into him/buy tiles around him. He'll get stuck and you can upgrade mass archers.
Click to expand...

Immorts are not that dangerous compared to mohawks (8CS vs 11CS+2.75CS if in forest). Mohawk, legion and landsknight rushes are the most dangerous early game rushes, but mohawk rush has no requirements at all, nor res, nor wonders. Other "rushes" (LS rush, Rifleman rush, Mech inf rush, etc...) are not actually rushes, because enemy has time to prepare for this, unlike in case when by turn 25 you have 5 mohawks near your border.
 
Rinnero said:
Pikes? Not sure what you mean here... I thought we are talking about rush...
Spears are only 15% stronger, but 40% more expensive than warriors, so I think that is again bad plan.

Mohawks wont be dead if an enemy is at least the same skill as you, he will just stay near you.

Even if you kill this first wave, attacking him if not best choice even if you have swords. Just ensure that he will not capture any of your cities, and try to look as if you are going to attack him (but dont attack).


Immorts are not that dangerous compared to mohawks (8CS vs 11CS+2.75CS if in forest). Mohawk, legion and landsknight rushes are the most dangerous early game rushes, but mohawk rush has no requirements at all, nor res, nor wonders. Other "rushes" (LS rush, Rifleman rush, Mech inf rush, etc...) are not actually rushes, because enemy has time to prepare for this, unlike in case when by turn 25 you have 5 mohawks near your border.
Click to expand...

obviously you haven't faced a decent immortal rush. Golden age + double healing + honour = very nasty rush and it's faster than a mohawk rush.

spears are just fine. especially if you have 0 iron around. it's all about controlling the terrain. Obviously you're not going to give up the better terrain if you know you're getting rushed. So letting the mohawks take the good terrain would be dumb.

Sure, a smart mohawk rush will not let themselves get wiped, but you need a few less units than they do to survive it. If they move off to another target, then you have a military available to go shut them down.
 
A lot of people here have answered the question. Yesterday I fought against wave after wave of mohawks (probably 8 in total, with 3 of them later being longswords) and horseman. He eventually quit after I was killing them off faster when I got crossbowman. Forget longsword or anything else and focus on crossbowmen. It is a killer against them.

Building walls and the great wall is a bonus if you ask me.
 
Thoughtful Thug said:
A lot of people here have answered the question. Yesterday I fought against wave after wave of mohawks (probably 8 in total, with 3 of them later being longswords) and horseman. He eventually quit after I was killing them off faster when I got crossbowman. Forget longsword or anything else and focus on crossbowmen. It is a killer against them.

Building walls and the great wall is a bonus if you ask me.
Click to expand...

the great wall is definitely just a bonus, but it's really funny to plant a few cities around him and buy all of the tiles so that they can't go anywhere.
 
This is a sub-strategy to go along with the rest of the strategies already discussed, just make the Mohawks Disappear! Heh, here's how:

It is insanely beneficial to plant your GG as a Citadel *if* there is a clear choke or cutoff point or you fear you will lose your capital otherwise (then plant it right next to your cap so any attackers take automatic damage either before or after they attack). Any adjacent enemy unit takes -3 damage no matter what their defense (and if the don't have 3 hp, they are killed, aka *poof* they disappear.)

Just as important as the citadel is the unit IN the citadel. Put your strongest unit in there because he will have insane odds against the Hawks and will protect against the following:

So here is the big disclaimer: your citadel can get pillaged!!! So don't let them get in (aka keep your strongest unit in it at all times and switch out damaged units regularly). Enemy units do not get the citadel's defense bonus so kill anything that gets in there immediately and then when they try to kill that unit, it will get the bonus.

It's just so much fun to watch attacking mohawks 'disappear' as the citadel cuts them down.
 
This is a sub-strategy to go along with the rest of the strategies already discussed, just make the Mohawks Disappear! Heh, here's how:

It is insanely beneficial to plant your GG as a Citadel *if* there is a clear choke or cutoff point or you fear you will lose your capital otherwise (then plant it right next to your cap so any attackers take automatic damage either before or after they attack). Any adjacent enemy unit takes -3 damage no matter what their defense (and if the don't have 3 hp, they are killed, aka *poof* they disappear.)

Just as important as the citadel is the unit IN the citadel. Put your strongest unit in there because he will have insane odds against the Hawks and will protect against the following:

So here is the big disclaimer: your citadel can get pillaged!!! So don't let them get in (aka keep your strongest unit in it at all times and switch out damaged units regularly). Enemy units do not get the citadel's defense bonus so kill anything that gets in there immediately and then when they try to kill that unit, it will get the bonus.

It's just so much fun to watch attacking mohawks 'disappear' as the citadel cuts them down.
Click to expand...

i.e. its fun playing vs total nobs
 
Citadels are last hope choice.

In one of my recent games I tried immortal rush. I had 6 of them, GG and one pikeman, all of them lvl3 (some with medic promotion). My opponent had 2 warriors and pikeman. He took GG by SP and settled him near capital. Then I just went around, but he got another GG by HS and settled it on the other side of capital! (Our capitals were far away from each other, thats why I arrived late.)

THAT was quite hard to breakthrough. I took one citadel and pillaged it, but still was pushed away and couldnt take capital anymore. These 2 citadels were much more effective than +20%CS by GG, but cost of such action is incredible. He wasted HS and had no GG for offensive warfare or defence of other cities.


BTW, MadDjinn, I havent felt anything special about immortal rush. Though that wast perfect implementation (arrived late, enemy is half-noob, stupid but very effective defence). There is almost no benefit of 2x healing even with medic promotion, and merely warriors were ok against them. And though immorts are 10-12 turns faster than mohawks, you cannot have 4 of them the moment you discover immortals (as you can with mohawks): you have to hard build them. This negates 10-12 turn advantage. You also cannot have GA that early.

Explain (or show right in game) how can you make immortals dangerous. I see no reason whatsoever that they are "nasty" :)
 
the most important thing about stopping a mohawk rush is to chop down forest around your border cities and dont gift them their wood combat bonus.

else spears (warriors) n archers do just fine, check out how far the closest city is. a good iroquois player will also expand in every wood tile he can get (imho best is a libtery/Honor mix for iros)
 
MadDjinn said:
yeah... no.

citadels in MP are fairly useless unless you've used a lot of them.

ranged units will just sit back and kill. Or they'll just go around.
Click to expand...


its the skill to place citadels in the right location with the right set up of supporting units ;).
 
Antarion said:
its the skill to place citadels in the right location with the right set up of supporting units ;).
Click to expand...

not really. you drop a citadel, I'll go around. you aren't protected on all sides by a single citadel.

or ranged kill your units, slowing upgrading to logistics/range/indirect fire.

then wander in a horse and pillage the citadel..


As per the immortals - the power is in the GA and volume. They're cheaper than swords, and are more effective in large groups due to no strat resource needed. (I've built 10+ immortals before, just for the upgrade benefit) Along the way, I generally also try to grab the HE if I've got decent production. toss in some archers/cats for ranged strength, and the immortals are a very decent blocker.

If I do it, it's always an honour start.

8 +
10% (GA)
10% (discipline)
20% (GG)
10-30% (flanks)
+terrain bonus

leaves you with 8+70% (or 85% if HE is used) = 13.6+terrain bonus on attack or fortification+terrain on defence.

upgrade to pikes and they're now at 17-18.5 + terrain/etc. 27ish turns (or more if lots of fighting) is a very sweet push. I tend not to start the fight with less than 4-5 immortals, which can be very cheap to buy. (now that archers are extra cheap, you can add those as well)

sure, swords and LSs have higher base CS, but with the right tactics, swarms of Immortals (and properly flanked front line units) are hard to kill due to the double healing. Not to mention 3 move during a GA. (hunting down wounded units is good)
 
Good to hear it's very doable to stop this rush, and others. I'm a newbie in Civ Multiplayer, but I am a pretty experienced Starcraft 2 ladder player. I couldn't imagine a rush here would be philosophically different in this game: most effective against players who don't see it coming & thus aren't prepared. And if defended successfully, the attacker is effectively crippled from their failed all-in attempt.
 
Aestis25 said:
Good to hear it's very doable to stop this rush, and others. I'm a newbie in Civ Multiplayer, but I am a pretty experienced Starcraft 2 ladder player. I couldn't imagine a rush here would be philosophically different in this game: most effective against players who don't see it coming & thus aren't prepared. And if defended successfully, the attacker is effectively crippled from their failed all-in attempt.
Click to expand...

Here is a tip for newer players: look at the "demographics" screen often. You can see how much more military might #1 has compared to you, and if they are next door watch out. You can also see who is ramping up for an iron rush, as they are making warriors (for upgrades) their strength will show it. And if you have a newbie neighbor, it will show as they won't be making any more units and they will be last in military... I successfully do warrior/spear rushes to those players all the time. Not because it is an essential part of my strategy, but because if they give me an opportunity I will jump all over it. Then when I get iron, if another neighbor has a feeble military I will iron rush them next... again not because it is my primary strategy, but because if they give me an opening I will take it.
 
Silverfuturist said:
DISCLAIMER: this is based upon my experience so far. If my experience changes so will this post. :scan:

Mohawk Warriors require no iron... the moment Iron Working (IW) is discovered typically 4 warriors can instantly be upgraded with a 5th on the way. Combined with Honor (great general (GG) + 10% bonus for side-by-side) the closest Civ will easily fall unless they have an adequate defence. (A seperate topic, in Honor, going for 50% experience or +10% bonus first... :confused:)

If the defending Civ also beelined IW and iron is handy, then the turns it takes to mine that iron (or settle it) should happen before the Mohawks arrive, and swords defend vs Mohawks.:goodjob:

If the defending Civ doesn't have iron... Greece's Hoplites or Persia's Immortals combined with archers and GG should do the trick. But what about other civs... and what if they don't have a GG...:sad:

I have seen good players with enough archers, a GG, a strong location and tactics hold back the Mohawk rush. Plus, after the first Civ falls, the other Civs who paid attention should be able to beef up even more or form treaties vs the aggressor.:thumbsup: However, on a Pangea map, chances are not all neighbors will take adequate measures, and using the "Scoreboard" (Demographics) it is easy to see which Civ is in last place for Military, and how weak they are.:mischief:

Against players who are not experienced, the Mohawk Rush quickly wins the continent and usually the game.:eek:

But a greedy Mohawk Rusher will lose if the nearest neighbor with a military decides to take out this menace's capital the moment that second DoW is announced, that DoW usually means the soldiers are away from home.:lol:

At the very least, that Mohawk Rush can puppet several City States (CS) if the neighbors are strong, a capital plus several puppets is a good start IMHO that comes with free workers. :)

Another solution = play on an Archipelligo map. :cool:
Click to expand...

I just lost to a Mohawk rush, my first FFA-iron-rush-loss since I started MP... guess it happens... opponent was Kos, who I gleaned a lot of Aztec strategy from.

Pangea FFA and my close neighbor was Iriquois, I had no iron no horses. Killed several Mohawks before going down, but those early cities are so weak... his Mohawks showed up instantly. I had 3 Jags and 2 archers when he showed up (only delay in building units was monument and my scout popped a ruin), terrain wasn't the greatest for defense. 2 of his heavily wounded Mohawks were able to insta-heal, that is what tipped the balance. Strategy - get warriors almost up to their first promotion by fighting barbs, upgrade to Mohawks, then when u attack you will insta heal as your promotion will come right when you are less than 1/2 strength.

I think if the conditions are wrong, you might not be able to stop the rush, but I could be mistaken. Things that can go wrong, it takes several to cause the loss:
They are a close neighbor
You have no iron
They can insta heal at the right time
They pop mining right away from a ruin (or bronze working later)
They get gold bonanza (from ruins, they meet several CS first, El Dorado)
They go honor right away (I don't think best in the long run for FFA... doesn't matter if you are gone.)

I can see why people turn off ruins/barbs/CS in duels. Yesterday I joined a duel with ruins/CS and raging barbs, my sword popped a ruin to become a longsword before turn 50... fun but not "fair." they need to have an option were u can remove exotic wonders like El Dorado and FOY.
 
hmm I hate irq but there are numerous covards tactics that can be used to puncture their advance. Get 2+ horsemen and unless u live in amazon forest, or Himalaya. Victory is urs agienst an early rusher. Archers works if used correctly in well-located city defenses, where u can kite around ur city etc. but most times archers are serving as usless unless they are scouts with a hut-upgrade.
 
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