Diplomatically interesting, fairer, more granular Research Agreements

Here are a few ideas for discussion, aimed at making Research Agreements work better in gameplay.

Proposal 1: Link RAs explicitly to war/peace
How it'd work: You sign an RA. A pop-up appears asking you

If you actually invest in Science, your treasury would decrease by 281, but you would see Science gains over the lifespan of the RA (see proposal 3 below for proposed timing changes).

If you pocket the money, your treasury would remain unchanged, but it would commit you to war soon (i.e., it would become obvious to Suleiman after 10 turns that you just took his money.)

Why? This would add a whole new level of complexity to negotiations with Civs you've been to war with in the past, for example. It captures the idea that RAs are risky affairs and require trust. Right now, RAs are diplomatically uninteresting because they pretty much only lead to win-win situations (i.e., benefit both Civs involved).

Making this a viable game mechanic might require reworking AI Civ leaders' approaches to deceit – perhaps by making them much more random (less predictable from game to game). Otherwise, it'd be silly to ever enter RAs with certain leaders (e.g., Alexander and Oda).



Proposal 2: Eliminate RA asymmetries (Credit goes to ArcaneSeraph for the idea.)
How it'd work: The cost of an RA would only depend on the Civ with fewer techs researched. So would the benefits (i.e., the amount of Science received by each Civ).

Why? In the words of the poster who came up with the idea,

ArcaneSeraph said:

That way, if you are trading with someone that is ahead or at your level you would get about the same. If you are ahead, however, you will get at most their median tech value. So if you are trading with some backwater civ that you just kept alive for RA purposes or some other obvious exploit, then you wouldn't get many beakers for your buck.

Under this mechanism, AIs that are behind could catch up (which is largely the intent) but AIs or players that are ahead wouldn't be able to sail foward.

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In gameplay terms, scientific runaway Civs enjoy far too many benefits already. Research Agreements only aggravate this: if a scientifically advanced Civ signs an RA with a less advanced one, the advanced Civ gains far more beakers from the RA. Science-lagging Civs need some way to catch up, at least partially.

After all, thematically speaking, an Modern Era Civ signing an RA with one stuck in the Renaissance Era should do relatively little for the Modern Civ. It just doesn't make sense that an RA is an RA is an RA, regardless of who they're signed with.



Proposal 3: Make the timing of RA benefits more granular (Credit goes to Tabarnak for the idea.)
How it'd work: You sign an RA (honestly). After 10 turns (assuming peace with your RA partner), you would start seeing Science returns every turn. Perhaps they could even increase over the life of the RA – say, 10 on turn 11 of the RA, but 20 on turn 30.

Why? The one-shot, one-turn nature of the RA's "tech boost" as is is inelegant and lends itself too much to gaming (e.g., micro-ing techs researched and RA timing in order to secure a high median "researchable" tech, and queueing up techs you want far in advance to maximize benefit from beaker overflow).

Also, being able to hover over the Science section of the top bar and see "Oh cool, I'm getting 15 per turn from Gandhi" would keep you aware of which Civs you have an RA with, making for a more immersive experience instead of RA's current form (clicking through 5 seconds of negotiation, forgetting about it, then seeing a notification that you got a tech boost 30 turns later).

Proposal 2 and 3 are such good ideas that I honestly can't see how they haven't already been implemented.

Proposal 2 is the best idea I've seen to actually counter-act Civ's snowball problem (which every version of Civ has had). It's a non-artifical and strategice way for a civilization to try to catch up in tech later in the game, which is often a nearly impossible task.

Furthermore, it would add some much needed realism in this category. When there are a scientifically advanced civilizations around you, it is easier for you to learn those advancements. Realistically it's not like a country could hold onto certain technology exclusively for very long, especially in the modern world.

An idea to make technologies cost less beakers to research for each civilization that already knows the tech is one idea to alleviate this. But, that's a passive game mechanic. Making research agreements more valuable for less advanced civilizations is an active mechanic and involves diplomatic strategy, so I like it more.

Would want to make sure that the advanced civilization still had an incentive to enter into the agreements though. Might want to make them get a global diplomatic boost for entering agreements with less advanced civilizations.

I could also think of something like bonds having to do with financial type city states.
For example, you pay them 1000 gold, and get back 1100 over time.
But if they are destroyed, you lose all your money, so you can take out other players' allies, but they could also take out yours.

Thanks for posting this here wobuffet

And yes I agree with all options having merit and some combination of them would be very nice. In very general terms:

Option 1 says that RAs should be diplomatic mechanisms. Loyalty breeds friendship. Deceit breeds mistrust.

Option 2 says that RAs require research! It also says the the civs involved in the research actually influence the costs / gains.

Option 3 says that RAs take time to develop and the longer they have been existence, the stronger the gains from them are. It does reducing microing and it does feel more realistic.

I like them all .

I'd even perhaps go so far as with option 3 to offer a renewal of RA. When it is about to expire, you could ask if both civs wish to renew it. If so, they don't have to go through the same startup time as before.

lol at proposal 1. Good stuff. Proposal 3 is definitely good too.

Proposal 2 is just common sense; heck, the lower civ should get more beakers by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm not sure I understand how Proposal 2 would actually allow backward civs to catch up. Presumably, the incentive would be to sign a research agreement with the most advanced civ, to get more out of it. If less developed civs cannot compete for your signature on an RA, then they're not going to be as well off, even if they would get comparatively more out of that deal.

Camikaze said:

I'm not sure I understand how Proposal 2 would actually allow backward civs to catch up. Presumably, the incentive would be to sign a research agreement with the most advanced civ, to get more out of it.

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Like now, "better" RAs would be more expensive.
If anything, RAs with less advanced Civs would be cheaper for both parties (in terms of /).

Well, I can't really argue against that, if it can be achieved. That is, I guess, the end goal.

ArcaneSeraph said:

I'd even perhaps go so far as with option 3 to offer a renewal of RA. When it is about to expire, you could ask if both civs wish to renew it. If so, they don't have to go through the same startup time as before.

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Yeah; all trade deals should be renewable, in fact. ("A deal where we traded 9 gold per turn to the Ottomans for Silk and 2 Iron has expired! Click here to renegotiate this deal.")

In terms of the RAs, maybe the startup time could shrink from 10 turns to 9, then to 8, etc. all the way down to 5. It'd be a great extra incentive to keep the peace with your longtime buddies, perhaps making Civ5 diplomacy a smidgen more realistic .

Camikaze said:

Well, I can't really argue against that, if it can be achieved. That is, I guess, the end goal.

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Of course it could be achieved! Just pick a formula that works that way .

While the 3 proposals all present interesting (and fun) takes on Research Agreements, I fear the implementation and mechanics get far too complicated.

The current Research Agreement design is broken (which I am not going to detail). You pay some money, wait some time, and bam: You get a free technology!

I suggest a fix that goes something like this:

• 2 civilizations agree to a Research Agreement. This could cost both civilizations a fixed amount of gold--like the current design--, but it may not be necessary.
• Each civilization receives a fixed percentage of the 2 civilizations' median amount of science every turn while the agreement is active. For example 10%.
• Each civilization pays a fixed percentage of its own gross gold income every turn while the agreement is active. For example 15%.

Well, that's closer to how it works now, actually. It's still a lump sum at the end, but you aren't getting a free technology every time. You're getting a certain amount of research (half the median of the tech cost of the techs available to you?). I think it's important that it isn't a turn by turn benefit, as that eliminates the diplomatic aspect of it; there is no 'trust' whereby you aim to secure peace for 30 turns whilst the RA is under effect.