[BTS] Immortal Brennus - Reasons Behind the Moves

Long-time lurker, new poster. Picked Civ 4 up again when Civ 5 came out, moved from Noble to Immortal pretty quickly. I'm going to focus on the reasons behind each decision I make, since that's the info I would have loved to have when I was struggling with Monarch.

Also, hopefully all you better players can point out where I'm still going wrong.

Settings

Brennus (Charismatic / Spiritual) of Babylon
(Seriously, the Celtic starting techs are some BS. So I picked a civ with good techs, but didn't rig the game by picking great uniques).

Fractal, ancient, all defaults

Immortal difficulty

Marathon speed

No huts / events
Aggressive AI
No barbs - They're brutal on marathon, and it adds a lot of micro that I just don't find fun.

MacBuffy mod (BUG / BAT / Better AI). Like normal BTS, but with a better interface.

Why Spiritual / Char?

Spiritual: Once you get used to swapping civics, you'll see so many places where 5 turns in Slavery, Caste System or something else would solve a problem. It gets frustrating not being Spiritual.

Charismatic: Happiness boost for early game / war weariness, and the only trait that helps your siege units (the most important units for most wars). Doesn't push you toward a specific economy like Financial and Philosophical do.

Start



Wow, only pigs. May be a difficult game.

Moved the warrior onto the hill. He found rice and a bunch of grassland, so I settled 1 West. Turns out there was corn if I settled in place, but thems the breaks.



(I thought about moving 1 more to get the cows, but that also picked up dead water squares, lost the fresh water and put me 1 more turn behind, so I passed).

With 5 hills, decent food, and a river for watermills lategame, this will be a production city, so it gets a (P) after the name.

Tech plan: Pottery lets me develop 2 squares, so that's first. Then Bronze Working so I can develop all those riverside grasslands. A mine on the pigs also makes a good square until I get Animal Husbandry.

Build plan: Worker first (finishes 2 turns before Pottery), then warrior / rax as the city grows. Build a second worker when the city grows faster than 1 worker can improve squares.



Worker plan: Rice without water is weak (+1 food from the farm). So, cottage the floodplains, then cottage the rice too. This city has plenty of food with the pigs, so I'll take the commerce, and rip out the cottages when I specialize cities later.

Exploring

On Marathon / No Barbs, exploring requires zero micro. It's actually relaxing.

I meet Gilgamesh and Alexander. Not so relaxing. Hopefully I can get them fighting each other, or this will be a difficult start.

That's 50 turns (Marathon is slow). Keeping all those decisions in my head is tiring, so I'll stop there and write it up.

Links to turnsets:
Screenshots of surrounding area.
2nd turnset, where I plan my dotmap.
3rd turnset, where get copper.
4th turnset, where I get horses, religion, and find my neighbors.
5th turnset, where I block off the backfill area just in time.
6th turnset, where I tank my economy, rescue it, and start a war.
7th turnset, where I accidentally found Confucianism and expand into the NW peninsula.
8th turnset, where I switch to a specialist economy and start my own war.
9th turnset, where that was ends.
Post-mortem.

Here's the saves. I'm on Mac BTS with MacBuffy mod, not sure what that means for you guys.

Next time, could you post a screenie of all the surrounding land? Techpath AH-Mining-BW?

.... You opened wheel--pottery with pigs in your BFC? And with only two (really one) tile that really deserves a cottage pre-BW? A more typical AH--mining--BW opening is much better here.

^^^ Well I guess on Marathon getting a bit of extra commerce can make those eons seem a bit faster...

Thanks for the comments guys.

@GGracchus I'm going BW first, then AH. Mining the hills pigs gets you a 5-value square, pasturing it only gets you 1 more. I'll get AH after BW, while chopping out a worker and settler.

@shyuhe I started with Wheel, and researched Pottery straight away. I just did a shadow game using your AH-BW tech order, I'll post that next.

Here are the screenshots of the surrounding area:

Northwest



Southwest



South



Southeast

2nd Turnset (Years 3250-2500 BC, Turns 51-100)

After developing the rice, I mine the pigs, then mine the riverside hills. Two turns after that's done, Bronze Working completes, and I start Animal Husbandry (for pigs, plus cows to the West).



Now it's time for more workers. Why now? A few reasons:

• My food isn't great. With the mines, I only have +3 food, which is too slow, but the 6 hammers is great for building workers and settlers. By the time I'm done with that, I'll have AH, a pasture, and I'll be able to grow to max size quickly.
• To improve the next 2-3 squares, I need to chop forests on riverside grasslands. Those chops gotta go somewhere.
• Those chops also mean it will take about 2x as long to develop those squares, meaning my worker can't keep up with the city's growth.

The worker pops out at turn 100, with AH completing in 17 more turns, so I'll make a third worker then a settler. (Chops take 9 turns on marathon, plus 1 to enter the forest, so 17 turns is basically 2 sets of chops, and with 2 workers that produces a worker and a settler).

Here's the dotmap of the next few cities. (Anyone not familiar with BUG mod, the square is where the city goes).

SW



The commerce city is a bit light on food, so I might move it down after exploring more. First, the copper / cows city SW, then the stone / corn SE.

SE (The brown square to the NE is backfill for later).



Note that most of the good land is jungles. That's part of why I'm favoring cottages this game (get IW early). Also, I want to get Alphabet early to bribe Alex and Gilgamesh into fighting each other. Instead of REX, I plan to slow expand (SEX?) and focus on techs, then expand through one of my opponents.

Other things on my mind: With stone and a ton of chops, I could get Pyramids, but I've been wanting to try the Espionage Economy (Great Wall for GPP, settle a spy, steal techs). Alex and Gilgamesh aren't scary techers, but I figure I can steal their military techs and still build a decent regular economy (cottages and scientists) to research economic techs and Optics. Thoughts?

shyuhe recommended I go AH-Mining-BW instead of Pottery-Mining-BW-AH. I'm always up for learning something, so I tried it. Here's what I found:

Your settler finishes with 9 turns left in AH. I started to farm the rice, then moved him to the pigs as AH finished so he could start the pasture ASAP.



With the pigs, you grow to size 2 faster than the worker can improve tiles, so I started a second worker the turn the city hit size 2. (Sorry, no screenshot).

Mining completes at turn 62. BW takes 49 turns. (If I'd farmed the floodplains, which is probably better, it would be 45 turns).



Grew to size 4 on turn 87, started a settler (due at turn 113). Workers are building a road since there's nothing else to do (BW is still 20 turns away).



How it compares:

I got the 2nd worker way earlier, which was nice. I don't have BW yet, and I have a slow tech rate, which is not so nice.

Production is about a wash, but the AH-BW build saves 5 forests, which can become a wonder later. (AH-BW gets 2 workers and a settler on turn 113, Pot-BW gets 3 workers and a settler on turn 120, and remember, 7 turns in marathon = 2-3 in normal).

The tech rate scares me though. In the AH-BW build, I'm stalled for techs. I still don't have BW, and I'll need pottery before I can get things moving. This may be a difference between marathon and normal: In marathon, most things cost 2x as much, but techs cost 3x, so it's easier to get stalled for techs, and you pretty much have to cut 1/3 of the techs out of your normal build.

For a month or two, whenever my capital was a great production city (like this one), I'd skip commerce there, and cottage the second and third cities. Each time, my economy stalled, I couldn't get to Currency, and I couldn't afford a fourth city while the AI had 6 or more. Each time, I'd want to figure out what went wrong, so I'd restart from the initial autosave, build some cottages in the capital, and I'd keep up in expansion and tech and ultimately win. That's why I always get some sort of commerce in the capital now.

But I'm curious: What would you do from the point I left off in the AH-BW build? Grab the 2 nearby cities I have planned, plus 1 more to the West? Get Pottery and build some cottages in the capital? IW and settle the gems South? Maybe there's something here that I just haven't found yet.

Farm the floodplain first -- it's worth an extra coin compared to the unirrigated rice. Also, roads to a second city aren't bad. I'm not sure why you're building a second worker so early here though. I'd do a run myself but I can't run the save because of Mac-BUFFY.

Obvious with hindsight, but you should have stayed put. Unforested squares are visible at the edge of the fog, and in a forested start like this, the presence of such a tile almost always heralds the presence of a resource. So you had pretty good incentive to stay put, even without the benefit of hindsight. It´s not like unirrigated rice is really worth moving for in any case. Just a thought.

@NihilZero Thanks, I should try harder to read the borders of the fog. Next time.

3nd Turnset (Years 2500-2000 BC, Turns 100-150)

Continuing with the Pottery-first save:

My chopping plan worked. The 3rd worker and the 2 chops complete on turn 109, instantly getting me half a settler. 2 workers chop the hills, finish on turn 115, and move over to the pigs to start the pasture when AH finishes on turn 117.

The 3rd worker chops another forest, but it turns out I only need 3 chops for the settler, so I leave it 1 chop from done for a wonder later. (Would have been better to build the road to the next city, had I done the math to know I wouldn't need the chop).



Next tech: Mysticism, for 2 reasons. First, I'd like the extra happiness in my capital (from the charismatic leader). Second, for the 3rd city (to the SE), I'll need culture to grab the corn and stone.

Also, I discover horses in the perfect spot for the SE city I'd planned.



I found my second city in 2260 BC (a bit late, but I usually slow expand like this, it gives a stronger economy, and you'll see soon where that pays off, I hope). Also, someone beat me to the Great Wall, so I'll go Pyramids.



The second city is near Copper, and it will be a Commerce city, so I call it Copper (C).

For anyone reading this to improve their game, I want to discuss the placement of the 2nd city (the Northern one, with copper and cows):



When I count up the value of the city, the 2 water squares have zero value, just like desert. I'll never work them. Moving it 1 South (away from desert / sea / overlap) would make a stronger long-term city, but this early, it's important to have the resources in the first ring, so you can work them before popping borders.

When I was struggling at Emperor, I would try to place cities in great late-game positions, making production cities where watermills would (eventually) make them great, or putting critical resources where the city couldn't work them for 50+ turns. It doesn't work. You have to place a city where it's good right now, and pick the spot within "good right now" that's the best long-term.

Techs

I have AH, Pottery, BW and Mysticism. Priority techs are Alphabet (to bribe wars between Gilgamesh and Alex) and Iron Working (so I can develop that good land to the South). So, Writing next, then I'll decide between IW and Alpha next turnset.

Worker actions

1 develops the copper (he starts a road while he waits for the settler, stops it to mine the copper, then finishes the road), 1 roads between the cities, 1 cottages the riverside grasslands. Also, I whip the granary in the capital when the food bar is almost halfway full. (Best time to whip granary, you get the full food benefit plus the max time to work the squares).



(Why improve copper before cows? First, military, and second, with copper, I can build the granary without chops).

On turn 140, the copper and road finish. Both workers improve the cows, and I whip the rax in my capital. This doubles up whip unhappiness, but I get 93 hammers overflow, which instantly pops out a Monument, which lets me keep growing while building axes.





Game at turn 150:



2 workers are mining the hill in my capital, 1 is building a cottage for Copper(C) in the overlap square. (Best spot for cottages, since they're easier to work continuously).

Plan: Grow the capital to size 6, whip a settler (for the SE Horses city), then re-grow while building Library and Axemen. Copper(C) will fill up grassland cottages, chop a library, work a couple of scientists, and probably never whip anything (since it's only +4 food). Neither AI has cities near me (since I'm slow expanding), so I can don't need too much military for now.

If that's true, then why did you whip a barracks? Do you know where Alex and Gilga are?

Not yet, but I know I have 0.3 of Alex's power, which makes me nervous. Would you guys wait even longer for any army?

4th Turnset (Years 2000-1500 BC, Turns 150-200)

First turn, I switch my capital to working the riverside mine rather than the grass cottage, and focus on building a few axes since my power is dangerously low.

On the second turn, I find I'm the least advanced civ. Which is a bit worrisome, since my goal is to hit alphabet before Alex or Gilgamesh. (Alex isn't on here, so he's worse than me, but Gilgamesh is doing well).



I want to explain the tile improvements, since that's the biggest thing I needed to learn when I played Monarch. The 2 workers continue improving riverside hills, so I can make this a proper production city. Also, I should have anticipated working the hills and not cottaged the grassland, since I hardly work them. (The 3-food cottages are working well though, since I continuously work them even after whips).



Writing finishes a few turns later. What's next, Iron Working or Alphabet? If I'm teching well (and I think I am), alpha, then trade for IW. Let's check the demo screens.

GNP screenshot didn't come out, but it showed me equal with Gilgamesh but below Alex. But tech is GNP - (Culture + Espionage + Maintenance). Let's check those screens:





So that's where Alex's GNP is coming from: Culture and spies.

I've also been watching Gilgamesh's research. He's gotten sailing and is working on masonry, so if we're teching at around the same rate, I should get to Alpha first. So Alphabet it is, though I set research to zero until the library in the capital completes.

Back to workers, I start chopping a forest in preparation for the library, and the other 2 workers also chop once they're done with the mine.



When Copper(C) completes the granary, it also builds a library, and I start the road to the 3rd city.



Gilgamesh's land to the South:



And a shot with both our lands to orient you:



He's getting close to me. Better get cracking on that 3rd city.

With the library complete, I turn research back on and start a Settler. (Also note that I'm close to growing over the happiness cap). I'd like to build another axe while the unhappiness finishes clearing, but I'm worried about Gilgamesh, so settler it is.



One worker builds a second cottage for Copper(C), the other mines the last grassland hill at my capital.



Whip the settler 3 turns later, claim the next city. Continue working the 3-food cottages.



I call it Horse(P), since it will be my other production city (the sea-based one).

Tile improvements: Horse, corn, mine a hill, farm the floodplains, in that order. 2 workers over here (took my capital's worker).

1590 BC, Buddhism spreads to my capital. The entire continent is Buddhist, and I'm glad to not be left out.



My tile improvements are falling behind my city growth. So I start a worker in the capital, then notice that Copper(C) is at max size, and make one there too. (Once it pops out, I'll go monument, grow another size, and run 2 scientists).

Pyramids got grabbed on another continent. Oh well, I wasn't really pushing for them. Starting wars and chopping jungles is more important.



And here's Alex's land to the SW.



Note the ocean by my planned commerce city:



Once I plant Commerce, I think it will seal all the land NW for me, so I'm going to whip another settler and grab it asap. (I hadn't noticed until I did the end-of-turnset screencaps. My scouting is slow this game).

Also, Gilgamesh is much closer to me than Alex, so if possible, I want to make friends with Alex and expand through Gilgamesh.

Coming up: Grab the Commerce city SW, trade for IW and whatever else seems useful, and bribe a war.

Since they are in your religion, if you manage diplomancy OK you shouldn't need to big of an army. You also should scout the NW to make sure there isn't an AI up there or something.

Cottaging an unirrigated rice is one of the weirdest things i've seen on this forum so far Personally, i'd either not move for unirrigated rice at all or, if i have it in my BFC either way, at least farm it so you get the resource for health. With chainirrigations the tile gets decent, compared with the health bonus it's 4 food (5 with biology), which should be worth the farm. I can understand that you rate commerce high on marathon, but with a river nearby it's not like you have to do desperate moves like that...

If barbs are off i'd have settled the eastern horsecity for my second city for additional commerce and decent production, and copper as a third but 1E of copper instead of where you put it.

It was said before, but i have to point it out again: moving your cap wasn't a smart move here. Dry rice isn't worth a lost turn+ lost forrest. It's even worse as you move for more food but then cottage the rice

I'd also grow on infrastructure as much as possible when barbs are off, at least until you're not in danger of getting declared. If you need units, rather chose warriors, they do count for your powerrating aswell and are much cheaper. Anyway, you can't keep up with the AIs powerrating at this stage of the game one way or the other, so better try to dodge the wars - if an AI decides to kill you know, even several axemen won't save you from losing the game most probably.

Thanks for the feedback. Everyone's input, plus reviewing my game as I write it up, is really helping.

Question: Why would you move the copper city 1E? That loses several grassland and only gets scrub and overlap. Is it to keep it closer to the capital for maintenance?

Cottaging unirrigated rice is one i'd never considered, but I think it's a great idea. unirrigated farmed rice is a poor tile and civil service is a ways away, by the time that tile would have gotten to 5F you have a superior tile that's been boosting your tech rate a bit the whole time. i imagine that tile would be 3f/4c by the time you got CS and spent a bunch of worker turns chain-irrigating to it. pretty clever, i say!

I have to agree with ben, cottaging the rice is brilliant. I usually do such thing with sugar and other calendar resources, never considered for resources improvable almost T0.

I don't like other things here ;-), but since I don't play marathon I will just shut up, since I think the rules a bit differ.

Well, i don't like 1-off-the-coast unless it is necessary, it gains one hill (that hill with gems on it isn't truly powerful for production plus gets in the BFC of the southern city in the jungle), doesn't waste one forrest by settling on it, the city can pre-grow more cottagetiles for the cap, it requires one less road to connect and the cows are brought in the cities BFC with the caps 2nd borderpop (remember i'd have settled it as my third city)... there are quite some reasons.

Don't know why people consider cottaging rice as "brilliant"...? You can cottage sugar as it's often near a river and works as a FP that way, but i wouldn't cottage a non-riverside-sugar either. Takes too long for the cottage to give revenue. Okay, when you don't have anything better to work it might be worth it...

Farming the rice most likely gives you the ability to trade that resource for another resource (seems like 90% of that maps rice is in your corner of the world) or gpt, so that alone is worth more than the cottage... plus the health and more food... yes, it's a marginal tile, but it's not like the cap itself is food rich.