Nobles' Club LXXXI: Asoka of India

dalamb

dalamb

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The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Asoka of India, whom we last played in NC XXXIX. The Indians start with Mining and Mysticism.
Asoka.jpg
  • Traits: Asoka is Organized and Spiritual. ORG supports bigger empires by reducing maintenance costs, both directly and via cheaper Courthouses. Cheaper lighthouses mean more food sooner from coastal cities, and cheaper factories improve :hammers: faster in the late game. SPI gives cheaper temples but its main role is allowing cheaper religion and civic switches for diplomacy; you don't lose turns to anarchy, and can change back five turns later. If the game lasts a long time, cheaper Cristo Redentor plus :espionage: (augmented by the UB) lets you mess around with AI civics, changing yours to something bad for them, then changing back in one turn while they suffer anarchy.
  • The UB: The Mausoleum, a Jail with +2 :). It can be a good warmongering building, since the happiness boost synergizes with the Jail's -25% war weariness to reduce :mad: from prolonged war.
    Mausoleum.jpg

  • The UU: The Fast Worker, a Worker with 3:move: instead of two. Some people consider this one of the strongest UUs because it lets you start improving or chopping a mine or forest on the same turn you move there, is available immediately at the start of the game, and never goes obsolete.
    FastWorker.jpg
And the start:
initial.jpg

Spoiler map details :
Earth 2: an earthlike layout with somewhat crowded Old World and empty New World. On some maps you can dominate with just the old world (not sure if that's true on this one); it also favours early Astronomy to get to the New World before the AIs.
Spoiler Map edits :
Changed a somewhat-nearby duplicate resource to Copper.
Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:
There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do suggest that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards. You can post as often as you like; here's one suggestion:
  • 4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
  • 1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
  • 500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
  • 1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other
  • continent if applicable, etc)
  • 1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
  • End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)
This is just a guideline. If you're trying to improve your game, then posting more frequent updates, in as much detail as you can manage, is the best way to get suggestions from other players. If you come to what seems like a major decision and you want some advice, post an update, regardless of what game-year it is.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps in the early days of the series, and all of you for playing.
Click to expand...
The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC LXXXI Asoka Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Noble. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

  1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
  2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
  3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
  4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
  5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
  6. Exit the worldbuilder.
  7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
Spoiler huts and events :
Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.
 

Attachments

I count 4 PH's in the initial BFC, SiP probably. Techpath might be interesting...BW-Fishing-Ag-AH? Go worker first, and prechop/mine hills while going fishing.
 
GGracchus said:
I count 4 PH's in the initial BFC, SiP probably. Techpath might be interesting...BW-Fishing-Ag-AH? Go worker first, and prechop/mine hills while going fishing.
Click to expand...

SIP? imo not. I would go with settling 1SW.

Bad starting techs for this kind of start makes this more complicated.
I didn't do math, but should be interesting if BW before fishing or fishing before BW.

if you go SW, there are 2 PH's to mine so worker first kind of makes sense.

Problem is the pig is strongest tile, but how to get there in reasonable time...
 
You lose one food source in a very food poor start...and it doesn't look like you can farm much until CS. 1SW also loses a turn, but it is a possibility for the PH cap and one less tile to mine.
 
vranasm said:
SIP? imo not. I would go with settling 1SW.

Bad starting techs for this kind of start makes this more complicated.
I didn't do math, but should be interesting if BW before fishing or fishing before BW.

if you go SW, there are 2 PH's to mine so worker first kind of makes sense.

Problem is the pig is strongest tile, but how to get there in reasonable time...
Click to expand...
Why do you prefer 1SW to 1S? You lose a forest, and gain 3 water junk tiles.

GGracchus said:
You lose one food source in a very food poor start...and it doesn't look like you can farm much until CS. 1SW also loses a turn, but it is a possibility for the PH cap and one less tile to mine.
Click to expand...

It's brown but "very food poor" isn't real accurate. A 5F and a 6F tile will feed you easily enough to work mines to your happy cap.
 
Prince/Normal/No huts
1894 Diplo
Spoiler :

Meh, I didn't want to lose the extra seafood, so settled in place. There's corn! I just went for worker and ignored the work boat until later. Agriculture ---> AH ---> BW---> Fishing. With all the forests around, I decide to chop out SH.

Civ4ScreenShot0012-4.jpg


Explored west and found what appears to be the end of the continent. On the east, I'm stopped by Zara and Hammurabi. There is copper I could grab easily by getting sailing+ coastal city, but meh, it's too long of a walk to kill either of them. Instead, I placed a wall of 3 cities so I can backfill the cities later on.

Civ4ScreenShot0013-5.jpg


Popped the great lighthouse, maybe there's islands to settle?

Civ4ScreenShot0014-5.jpg


Meanwhile, Buddhism becomes the prevalent religions with Babylon and Khmer being heathens.

Babylonians took the spot to the south initially, but it was razed by a barb spearman (He was using a chariot to defend. I cleared it out and took the city for myself. Also he's planning war, so I temporarily switch to his religion and beg for some peace treaty. Spiritual is cool.

Civ4ScreenShot0015-3.jpg


In the meantime, I take constitution with lib and win the economics race for once.

Sury hates me (well actually everyone hates him and vice versa) and I see this wandering force of his camped near me, slowly gathering up. He's definitely gathered up to attack someone, and it might be Hammy, but meh... I don't want to take any risks. I bribe the English who are backwards to attack him, and that army heads back to fight the English.

Civ4ScreenShot0016-3.jpg


Churchill is actually getting owned, losing cities quickly to the Khmer; maybe he needs help. Once he's out of sight, I DoW Khmer too since he's preoccupied already for a phony war and bribe others in. Well, apparently they'll go for really cheap...

The real kicker is that the Mayans had previously pvassaled to the English, but they broke off because the English were too weak.

Civ4ScreenShot0018-4.jpg


Civ4ScreenShot0017-2.jpg


While everyone's distracted, I quickly dispatch Hammy with Rifle/cannon. Nobody likes him that much, and he caps quickly.

Civ4ScreenShot0021-4.jpg


With Hammy down, everyone slowly makes peace with Khmer; time to jump him. He gives up quickly too. I force my vassals to convert to Buddhism and theocracy, so Zara will approve of them. A few missionaries were sent to the largest cities.

Civ4ScreenShot0022-3.jpg


Meanwhile Churchill, the Maya, and Sitting Bull slowly break away from the Buddhist lovefest. Churchill has redcoats so I wait for infantry.

Civ4ScreenShot0023-3.jpg


After that I went after Sitting Bull, and bribed Zara against him. Sitting Bull quickly gives in too.

At this point there's only Maya and Ethiopia left. Maya's voting for Zara still in the AP, so that had to be stopped. Fortunately Zara's willing to betray him too, so I conquer his capital. Unfortunately, I failed to note that most of the Mayan cities are offshore and I... don't have any oil. :S But I clearly do have enough for a UN win, so I just go rushbuy the UN and let Maya and Ethopia hate each other.

But right after the UN elections... I guess it wasn't needed since capturing Mutal was good enough to win an AP religon victory.

Civ4ScreenShot0024-3.jpg

 
Gwynnja said:
Why do you prefer 1SW to 1S? You lose a forest, and gain 3 water junk tiles.



It's brown but "very food poor" isn't real accurate. A 5F and a 6F tile will feed you easily enough to work mines to your happy cap.
Click to expand...

worker turns. the PH 1S is unforested.

i am not saying it's better or anything (too lazy to do math), but if you look at it from the early game worker micro you can improve riverside PH to 4H1C compared to the PH without river for 4H, the city will probably run this improved tile for "long time".

Other thing being that worker should come in 12T, the PH is improved in 4, that's 16T for 1st mine, ~22T for 2 mines. Questionable at what point you get fishing+BW, chopping without fishing doesn't make sense so you need both.
I guess on the riverside PH you will be there a bit sooner.

problem is how to get to fishing and AH soon enough.

awaiting Rusten or someone to say "you need to do obviously this ..." :-)

hmm there is still possibility with going fishing, worker, interupt worker, build WB on 1 of PH's, finish worker, would be probably better?!
 
I'd assume from the SS 1SW is also riverside (of course you need BW before it could be improved), you save 1 turn on the workboat getting to the crabs, since the unforested tiles are 1S and 2E (which looks to be a lake) a resource is also likely 1S.
 
Monarch/Normal/No Huts

4000BC
Spoiler :
SIP, corn! Who needs fishing :lol: Tech order: Agriculture > AH > Bronze


2200BC
Spoiler :
The northern Sheep city is next. Those mountains help to make a nice little block against Hammy and Zara.

After that I guess it's to the Bronze site. The double crab, corn site to the north looks like a great GP farm, but it can wait for now.
2200BCMap.jpg


2200BCTech.jpg



1440BC
Spoiler :
:)
1440BCGoldCap.jpg


I also was able to trade for Zara's furs pretty early on. Ivory will be on line soon. Yay, happy cap.


950BC
Spoiler :
I just plan to continue settling these city sites until full. As soon as I have four axes, they will go visit the barbs.
950BCMap.jpg


Aesthetics for trade bait. In hindsight The Great Lighthouse would have been fantastic on this map. Oh well, I didn't really plan on going for any world wonders this game anyway.
950BCTech.jpg


A peek at the capital. Library in, let's make some scientists.
950BCCity0.jpg



1AD
Spoiler :
Land is full, time to start making some plans. As soon as CoL came in I switched to caste and ran as many scientists as I could. Teched Civil Service, then bulbed Philo with a scientist. Switched to Bureaucracy and Pacifism. Moar scientists!

Why Compass, you ask? It's a great tech! Next is paper then Education aided by another bulb. At that point, I want to switch back to Slavery and Organized Religion. So, I'll need to snag Poly and Mono before that time. (I self teched these IIRC)

I also want to get cathedrals up in those two border cities. Ahhhh, so much to do, so little time.
1ADMap.jpg


So, I guess the question here is what to lib? I have no horsies :sad: So...Steel? :mischief: I can squeeze out an extra scientist before going back to slavery and save him for a Chemistry bulb.
1ADTech.jpg


1ADCity0.jpg


1ADCity1.jpg


1ADCity2.jpg



640AD
Spoiler :
Just churning out Infra.
640ADMap.jpg


640ADTech.jpg


640ADTrades.jpg



1220AD
Spoiler :
About to roll out. I'm thinking of going straight for the hindu shrine.
1220AD.jpg

 

Attachments

Agree with Vran on 1SW, would build a worker who can mine the hill while teching AH.
2f2c sea tile can be used, getting the worker in 15 turns on PH but brings AH faster ;)
 
Mylene said:
Agree with Vran on 1SW, would build a worker who can mine the hill while teching AH.
2f2c sea tile can be used, getting the worker in 15 turns on PH but brings AH faster ;)
Click to expand...

no fishing - you can't work lake nor coast resource... it complicates the whole thing.
 
You would actually need fishing to work the sea. But I agree with 1sw as well... 1s looks too much like a resource for me to settle it plus it kills one of your unforested hills so your worker will have downtime while waiting for AH.
 
Spoiler :
I know you mentioned the map was Earth like, but I didn't realise it was this Earth like! It's a lot of fun :)
 
I decided to try one of these games, hopefully I'll be able to finish it in a reasonable time frame. I've been having trouble in Monarch so that's what I decided to play. Epic time speed, no huts/events

Spoiler :

Settled 1 SW. Teched Agriculture -> AH -> BW -> Fishing -> Wheel -> Writing -> Alphabet, which came in at exactly 1000 BC. Got a bunch of techs off of trading with AI.

I have 4 cities the 2nd one was settled east towards Hammurabi and Zara to grab the sheep/corn spot. 3rd was south of the capital by wheat/fish/elephants. The fourth was by the bronze near the western peninsula. I have room to backfill 2-3 more cities. Unfortunately, a barb city spawned on the peninsula after I lost a fogbuster, so I'll probably have to research HR and get some elephants to take that out before the AIs do.

GS in Delhi in 13 turns. I don't know how to get nice screenshots, so I'll just post the savefile.
 

Attachments

vranasm said:
worker turns. the PH 1S is unforested.

i am not saying it's better or anything (too lazy to do math), but if you look at it from the early game worker micro you can improve riverside PH to 4H1C compared to the PH without river for 4H, the city will probably run this improved tile for "long time".

Other thing being that worker should come in 12T, the PH is improved in 4, that's 16T for 1st mine, ~22T for 2 mines. Questionable at what point you get fishing+BW, chopping without fishing doesn't make sense so you need both.
I guess on the riverside PH you will be there a bit sooner.

problem is how to get to fishing and AH soon enough.

awaiting Rusten or someone to say "you need to do obviously this ..." :-)

hmm there is still possibility with going fishing, worker, interupt worker, build WB on 1 of PH's, finish worker, would be probably better?!
Click to expand...

Mylene said:
Agree with Vran on 1SW, would build a worker who can mine the hill while teching AH.
2f2c sea tile can be used, getting the worker in 15 turns on PH but brings AH faster ;)
Click to expand...
The problem I have is that your worker doesn't really have anything to do between agriculture and animal husbandry and then animal husbandry and bronze working. He's built the mines right off the bat, farmed the grassland tile at agriculture, had a turn or two waiting for animal husbandry to pasture the pigs, pastured the pigs at AH, and now he has several more turns of inactivity. I could be wrong about this... I did the math in my head but I would rather go fishing-bw and chop while I research animal husbandry.
Habitus said:
I'd assume from the SS 1SW is also riverside (of course you need BW before it could be improved), you save 1 turn on the workboat getting to the crabs, since the unforested tiles are 1S and 2E (which looks to be a lake) a resource is also likely 1S.
Click to expand...
I'd expect either iron or copper. If it pops after you settle there, you'll have access to the resource instantly and a 3rd hammer for the city site, making an already monster production site even stronger.
 
I have tried many of these, and fared poorly in most of them. Played this one at Noble, normal speed. Since I didn't really expect to do well, I didn't post any intermediate progress reports. Surprised myself. Final result: AP Diplo victory in 1844.

Spoiler :
Settled 1SW. Initial techs were Hunting, AH, BW Wheel, AG, and Potter. Wanted to max cottages for income. Played passive early on and concentrated on expansion and techs. Most of the AI went for Judaism, so I joined them and managed to provoke Zara into DoW around 700 AD. After trading Winnie for feudalism, vassaled Zara, and went after Hammi. He was pleased, but what the hell. Meanwhile, SB was busy vassalizing Paca and Winnie. I went after SB next, and got him to vassal along with Winnie and Pacal. DoW on Sury, and took a couple of cites, then got the Diplo vote from AP. In hindsight, I should have held off the vote because I was only a couple of turns from conquest. This is the first time I got a Diplo win with AP. I usually go for dom or conquest.


Learned a lot from this one. If attached save isn't in the spoiler, don't look at it. This was the last save before victory.
 
Looking again, I realize the save isn't anywhere. Not sure how to include it in a spoiler.

One other thing about this game - I don't think I build any wonders except for the national ones. Acquired all the world wonders through conquest. This is a first for me. Final save is attached (consider it part of the spoiler).
 

Attachments

Gwynnja said:
The problem I have is that your worker doesn't really have anything to do between agriculture and animal husbandry and then animal husbandry and bronze working. He's built the mines right off the bat, farmed the grassland tile at agriculture, had a turn or two waiting for animal husbandry to pasture the pigs, pastured the pigs at AH, and now he has several more turns of inactivity. I could be wrong about this... I did the math in my head but I would rather go fishing-bw and chop while I research animal husbandry.
Click to expand...

Well that is if you go agriculture first then AH. If you go hunting>AH, your worker will mine the hill, then pasture(maybe a turn of downtime or something, too lazy to do math), then mine the other hill. In this situation I would go for a very early settler so that ideally the settler would be done by the time my worker has nothing else to do(again, too lazy to do math). Going fishing>BW and chopping is also a fine choice here.

Edit: Actually it might be better to work to river plains hill for part of the time so that AH will be done faster. Maybe time it so it will be done as soon as you finish improving the first hill or something like that.
 
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