.

I played as Mongols yesterday (small pangaea, King, marathon). As soon as I repelled some first invasions, I hit Chivalry in around 50BC and started building Keshiks right away. Needless to say, I steamrolled the whole continent and destroyed armies larger than mine (4-6 Keshiks, Khan, 2 longswords to capture cities). This game was a cakewalk (compared to my other King games - I still can't figure out how to survive on Emperor and higher levels) and I also thought that they could get a nerf. They also get +1 movement form the UA, which makes them unstoppable and would make up for the city attack penalty.

But on the other hand, this is what makes Mongolia unique and tries to simulate history, at least a little bit. Besides, Keshiks aren't such a threat when the AI uses them, I have yet to see a successful Mongol invasion in my games.
 
Mongols steamrolled Asia in reality so it makes sense for them to do it in the game. But, I do think they are a little overpowered as well.
 
Keshiks are really one of the best unit of the game. I acutally beat the ai on a duel at deity level using Mongolia. If I remember well, I was able to attack city and get back to leave the place for another Keshiks attack and then leave place for another and so on as long as I had in stock. So basically, I just built about 10 of them plus I upgrated the couple of warrior I had to swordmen and then to long, and I roll over Napoleon's Empire (well I dont think that 2 cities is an empire but...), even if I had musketmen by the time the game ended (he got it when I started to besiege Paris).

With all the movement this unit have so early in the game, they can easily beat any civilisation mainly based on a flat land (grassland and plain) territory, which is what they actually did in the history.
 
They probably should be nerfed. Right now, both mounted units and archery units get penalties against cities, both of which keshiks are and they get the penalty from neither.
 
Keshiks should be penalized against cities, so that Songhai's UU Mandekalu Cavalry aren't totally inferior.
 
I can win 90% of the time on diety/pangea as Mongolia if I really set my mind to it. Keshiks are hands down the best UU in the game against the AI. The only counter against them are knights/lancers. The trick is to get the keshik steamroll going early. Once you have 2 armies of 7-10+ keshiks that can ignore LOS, shoot twice, and fire 3 hexes away nothing short of mechanized infantry and bombers is going to stop you.
 
Lord Olleus said:
I really don't think that the historical argument holds water. Otherwise every UU should be basically invulnerable. Hoplites should come with a +200% against immortals, Panzers an extra 20 strength, Legions should be able to respawn in Rome when they die, ect...ect...
Click to expand...

Except Mongolia's UU/UA are entirely war based. Other civs have advantages for playing peacefully, Mongolia is built entirely for conquering.
 
their ranged strength is only 13, and there is an innate ranged penalty. toss in a great general or khan and they end up only slightly stronger vs cities than crossbowmen.
 
Good suggestion. Keshik are way to OP, as I experienced last week. City attack penalty is necessay, and maybe lose 1 movement.
 
I must have a worse hangover than I thought.

Are you actually suggesting taking a perfectly good unit and nuking it so that it's less useful?

Why would you do that? The AI doesn't know how to use them anyway so just enjoy the blitz!
 
Problem is not AI can't use Keshiks, it's they can't counter them. It's just too hard to program zonal defense with cities and combined arms.

Longbowmen with indirect fire is scary.
 
Lord Olleus said:
Because its too good. The entire point of a strategy game is to have different options which are all roughly as good to each other in different circumstances.
Click to expand...

Personally I would argue that having disproportionately powerful units actually makes the strategic play better. Knowing that you have to fend off such powerful units make you think and work harder to survive.

Playing as the Mongols, the AI's tendancy to spam Pikemen seems to me to be a fair counter as they are in themselves disproportionately powerful against mounted units, a little too powerful if you ask me but then again, it makes you think more when handling them.

If the AI had a better handle on combat the power of the Keshik wouldn't stand out as much. But the fact that you can get them by turn ~75 if you push hard enough allows you to steamroll across the land without a care in the world, but then you can do that if you get knights that early with any other Civ.

Keshiks are indeed powerful, but don't forget that they are replacing an incredibly powerful mounted unit for the era, so there is some offset balance, albiet still weighted in Mongolias favor.

I think that the desire for this so called "balance" is a dangerous thing. I'd rather play with units that can pack a punch and be praised or feared depending on which side you're on than play with a bunch of homogenous units that make the game stale.
 
Slight correction to the OP...Conquistadors also receive no city attack penalty. Sorry...always trying to beat the drum for Spain around here whenever possible :)
 
Becomedeath said:
Personally I would argue that having disproportionately powerful units actually makes the strategic play better. Knowing that you have to fend off such powerful units make you think and work harder to survive.

Playing as the Mongols, the AI's tendancy to spam Pikemen seems to me to be a fair counter as they are in themselves disproportionately powerful against mounted units, a little too powerful if you ask me but then again, it makes you think more when handling them.

If the AI had a better handle on combat the power of the Keshik wouldn't stand out as much. But the fact that you can get them by turn ~75 if you push hard enough allows you to steamroll across the land without a care in the world, but then you can do that if you get knights that early with any other Civ.

Keshiks are indeed powerful, but don't forget that they are replacing an incredibly powerful mounted unit for the era, so there is some offset balance, albiet still weighted in Mongolias favor.

I think that the desire for this so called "balance" is a dangerous thing. I'd rather play with units that can pack a punch and be praised or feared depending on which side you're on than play with a bunch of homogenous units that make the game stale.
Click to expand...

First of all, Pikes don't get any bonus v. Keshiks, becaue Keshiks are not "mounted" they are Ranged.

And you don't have to "fend off such powerful units" unless you are playing MP, because the AI can't use Keshiks well.

If the AI could use Keshiks well, then there would be even more reason for them to be nerfed because spawning next to the Mongols would guarantee that your game will be over in 150 turns.

Having a City Attack Penalty would be reasonable. The ability of Kehiks to fire at a city and retreat is OP enough, give the defender a little bit of time to try and use units to clear the problem before their empire falls.
 
Krikkitone said:
First of all, Pikes don't get any bonus v. Keshiks, becaue Keshiks are not "mounted" they are Ranged.
Click to expand...

To be honest I haven't lost one to a Pikeman in ages since I started pushing to get them earlier int he game and I tend to take the Mongols out or deny them horses if they're playing against me so apologies for the error, I presumed they'd be subject to the same mechanic.

However, in that case they need reclassifying to be attackable as mounted units. Problem solved.

Krikkitone said:
Having a City Attack Penalty would be reasonable. The ability of Kehiks to fire at a city and retreat is OP enough, give the defender a little bit of time to try and use units to clear the problem before their empire falls.
Click to expand...

That would just change the strategy, you'd just bring more of them to do the same job.
 
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