Asoka - 100% Research 90% of the time - No Tech Trades - Immortal

Time for another weird economy. This one has 2 parts:

No Tech Trades: TMIT has praised No Tech Trading lately, saying it should be the default game setting. I haven't played NTT in a while, and never on Immortal. Should be fun.

100% research (or espionage): Following the plan I laid out last game, I want to run 100% research almost all the time, paying my expenses with failgold. (100% espionage is fine. The point is, 100% commerce into something productive, and skip the gold multiplier buildings).

With that in mind, I pick Asoka (Spiritual / Organized) of India:

• Spiritual is simply my favorite trait. Last game I probably swapped civics 20 times.
• Organized is new for me, but after looking at the financial screen from last game, it should really help:

Settings:

• Fractal (all defaults)
• Immortal
• Marathon
• Aggressive AI
• No barbs / huts / events
• Diplo victory is enabled this game (let's try the AP again)
• No tech trades

Detailed settings:


And here's the start:


Here's the autosave (Note: I have MacBuffy mod installed).

looking forward to following along!

Getting Rolling (Turns 1 - 220, Years 4000 - 1300 BC)

Where to settle? Unless you're Financial, water tiles without resources kind of suck. So I consider moving.


The hill 1 Southeast is the only reasonable spot, but it would lose me the workable stone. Plus, settling in place gets me 5 (!) hills plus stone, making this a killer production city. And it is fractal, so having strong sea production may come in handy.

I settle in place. And I'm glad I did.


Turns out, I'm on an isolated island. Normally I'd re-roll (no real point in playing vs AIs who can tech trade), but with trades disabled, this should be interesting. I lose the tech multiplier you get for knowing people who know the tech you're researching, but I save on building units, so I'll call that even.

Here's the Southern half of the continent:


And here's my planned dotmap (use the lake to orient yourself):


For anyone wondering how to get a good commerce city, that's always the first city I plan. The remaining cities all work around it.

I go worker first, then warrior for something to build while Delhi grows. I research Agriculture then Masonry, and improve corn, sugar (farm) and stone, in that order.


At this point, I'm running out of improved squares to work, so I make a second worker.

What to tech? Normally I'd go Bronze Working once I have enough techs to improve my tiles, plus with all those hills there's a decent chance at copper. But picking the default rarely leads to a great game, and since I don't need military at all (no AIs, no barbs), there's a better option.

Every city except Commerce is coastal. Sounds like The Great Lighthouse would be amazing, even if the trade routes are just with myself. And when I get Astronomy, it will really take off.

So, I tech: Fishing, then Sailing, and build GLH. (I already have Masonry).

Delhi gets to max size. I swap to sea tiles to shave a turn off the research, and build a little failgold into Pyramids, since there's no point in making anything else.


My techs. Next is Bronze Working to chop GLH.


I burn through the non-great lighthouse (lesser lighthouse? mediocre lighthouse?) at double speed thanks to Organized, and get GLH in 2020 BC. (Took 1 chop).


While I'm at it, The Wheel comes in, and I connect up Stone. A bit later, my borders pop, and I'm lucky that there's a gems without jungle that I can snag. I move to it ASAP, before the jungle spreads.

My second city. Occasionally, the auto-suggestion is actually a good move. Here, I already have culture on the pigs, so I move the city 1S.


Costs 2 GPT, but thanks to Sailing, I immediately get the trade routes, making this city cash-positive. (I'd hoped for 2 routes, but it looks like a city can only have another city once as a trade partner).

I build a third worker, then put a little more failgold into the Pyramids while growing to max size. (The gems will come in soon).


Then Delhi slowbuilds another settler, to grab the pigs in the middle of the continent.


This is a bit farther away, but it has a floodplains and a pigs in the center ring. I'll get Caste System soon, so I'm prioritizing cities that don't need a border pop.

Costs 4 GPT, but gets me 4 more trade routes, so again it's cash-positive.

Once that settler builds, I decide to go for Pyramids in earnest. (That's why there's no one to improve the pigs yet). It's risky, but it will solve my happiness problems, and make a Specialist Economy work well, which is great with all the pigs and seafood.

I wish I'd done it earlier (like after the first settler), but I have stone, 5 chops, and a good production capital. Also, my entire military is 2 warriors, so I should have more spare hammers than the AIs. Worth a shot.

Pyramids are 1500 hammers on marathon. That's 40 turns, probably 25 with the chops. 10 turns in, I hear the "someone built a wonder" bell. Phew, just the Temple of Artemis. Another 5 turns, and another bell. Just The Mahabodi. I was so ready to feel so dumb each of those times for not starting this sooner.

But I luck out, and in 1320 BC, I whip to finish The Pyramids.


That's probably all the wonders I'll do for a long time. The Great Library? Sure, if I can snag it. But these are probably the only important ones this game.

During all this excitement, NE Pig built a workboat and warrior.

Next: Granaries while cities grow into worthwhile tiles, then more workers and settlers.

Event log at the end of this turnset:


Goals for next turnset:

• Settle everywhere.
• Writing, Iron Working, and work toward Code of Laws.
• Save a Great Scientist to bulb Philosophy and get a religion.

- Spiritual is great if you are keen on civic swapping. If you're a player who sticks to one set of Civics throughout the game like I do though, its a wasted trait.

- Organized is a top tier trait and is going to help you run your science rate at 100% the most with the half cost civics, and 60 courthouses.

- Fast Worker will be a great help to building up your economy - move onto a forest tile and start chopping, or onto a hill tile and start improving on the same turn.

Spiritual is just sooo good. Especially when you need to change more than one civic at a time.

With Pyramids and spiritual, I'd skip iron working and beeline CoL.

I find these games without starting saves posted kinda meh. That is to say: Post saves when you post a game.

worth the watch

if you beelined masonry and tw, you should have made some stonehenge fail gold since it is boosted by stone (I hope I remember it right!)

the land looks mediocre at best, but has some food and Mids should be the right answer here.

Always feel that no barbs is cheating by human player, since AI doesn't understand this option.

edit:

ah one other thing... usually we describe Great lighthouse as GLH and Great library as TGL. Otherwise it gets confusing what you do (you did confuse me there up for few secs).

Without tech trading, settling rep specialists might be a lot better.

bhavv said:

- Fast Worker will be a great help to building up your economy - move onto a forest tile and start chopping, or onto a hill tile and start improving on the same turn.

Click to expand...

Fast workers are better the faster the game is. When it's 1 turn to road (I think that's what it is on fast), being able to move and road the same turn is huge. When it's 6 turns to road, 9 to chop and longer to farm, fast workers wind up saving about 10% time. Nice, but not really a big deal.

But with an isolated start, the only better UU is the Carrack (carry settlers at Optics).

@Fleme: Added the autosave. I play with MacBuffy, so not sure if you can open it. Let me know.

@vranasm Yeah, no barbs does make the game a bit easier. I just don't enjoy the micro that barbs require, particularly on Marathon. Really, the Aggressive AI setting will have the biggest effect. When you're on the same landmass, it makes the game harder, but when you're isolated, it winds up slowing down their tech rate.

I delayed wheel to grab Sailing and Bronze Working, so no early stone failgold. Will still help Moai Statues, and then Notre Dame. My real concern is no marble, which means not a lot of options for failgold. We'll see.

Thanks for the note about TGL vs GLH, I've updated the post.

Failgold is an interesting idea. I have used it of course but more as an afterthought for a city that hasn't something useful to do then as an actual whip strat to fuel finances. I wonder if you don't run out of wonders too soon on deity.

It might actually be even stronger in an AW game where commerce is scarce, even more trouble finding a good wonder of course but there's always the likes of moai to fool around with.

Dirk1302 said:

Failgold is an interesting idea. I have used it of course but more as an afterthought for a city that hasn't something useful to do then as an actual whip strat to fuel finances. I wonder if you don't run out of wonders too soon on deity.

Click to expand...

You might want to check out my last game, focused on failgold (Brennus / Immortal).

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=438558

I don't play Deity, but failgold works well on Immortal as long as you get the multiplier resources. The real problem is, if you fall behind techs, you wind up building wealth instead at a much worse conversion rate. So the key is to have some cities continuously building failgold throughout the game, so you don't fall behind.

This game, I'll probably have to milk Moai failgold out of most of my cities.

Bulbing for Religion (Turns 220-350, Years 1300 BC - 1 AD)

I start the turnset by moving Commerce to also be coastal, to take advantage of the Great Lighthouse, and moving a few other cities around to pick up the tiles it leaves.


Making a 4th worker in NE Pig, and turn on the 1-hammer specialist (who's actually decent with Representation).


Then chop out a settler (for the 4th city).


When writing is 1 turn from done, I whip the settler, overflow into a library, and found Commerce.


Commerce costs 4 GPT, and brings in a ridiculous 6 trade routes (3 for itself, and 3 for my other cities) for a new increase of 9 GPT. I think I should have expanded even harder. (I kind of wonder what would happen if I skip the Pyramids and just expand all out. But with the slower tech pace due to no trades, I think Rep will pay off long-term).

Tech plan: Research Math, bulb Currency with the Great Merchant that will come out soon, then research Code of Laws for Caste System. I'll take jihe's advice and leave Iron Working until later.

Also, for now, production matters more than research. So I'm running 0% research, banking gold until libraries come in, and putting production into infrastructure. Failgold will have to wait.

1020 BC: Christianity is founded in a distant land.


With an isolated start, there's not much to do. I whip some libraries (overflow into Statues), make some scientists, and start on another settler.

820 BC: Confucism founded in a distant land.


It seems the AIs are teching pretty damn fast. Hopefully I'll get Taoism, otherwise I'm religion-less.

(Also, in general, the AIs probably haven't skipped the ton of techs I did, like Iron Working and Construction, meaning they're killing me. Actually, that's how I recall No Tech Trades going: Normally, the human player doubles or triples his research rate with smart tech trades, and when you take that away, it's incredibly hard to keep up with a high-difficulty AI).

660 BC, I discover Math, bulb Currency, and on to Code of Laws.


640 BC: Hanging Gardens in a distant land. This is the only way to get an idea how I'm doing relative to everyone else.


620 BC: I found NW Pig, with 2 squares of overlap with Commerce. Costs 7 GPT, brings in 5 between trade routes and the center square. Close enough to break-even for me.


550 BC: Colossus in a distant land.


480 BC: Code of Laws comes in. Next: Civil Service.

Also, I turn on a bunch of scientists in MidWest Pig so I can bulb Philosophy.


Are courthouses worth it? Not yet, even at half-price. Total city maintenance is 15 GPT.


Now that I have Caste System, I can pop borders easily. So it's time to grab the rest of the cities. First up, Copper, in the middle of the continent to the East.


Only cost 6 GPT maintenance + civics, so a total of 1 GPT cost.

A Great General pops up in a distant land. Good to know the AIs are fighting.


280 BC: I'm getting close to the Great Scientist, so I grab Meditation and go for Alphabet. Also, the Mosoleum is built in a distant land.


For 10 GPT I grab SW seafood, with clams and crabs. That's all 3 seafoods, so Harbors will be worthwhile.


The workers are pre-chopping, so I can pop a granary and lighthouse super quick.

More Great Generals in a distant land. That's good news for me, unless one AI kills all the others.


190 BC: Statue of Zeus in a distant land. Aesthetics is known, so I won't try for the Great Library.


150 BC: I discover Alphabet, get the Great Scientist and immediately bulb Philosophy. Taoism in SW Seafood.


Swap to Slavery (to 4-pop-whip a settler, plus some libraries) and Pacifism. MidWest Pigs can regrow for a while.

The overflow from whipping the settler.


Time to get this failgold economy moving. I whip a courthouse in MidWest Pig, overflow into Chitchen Itza. Soon, it will just slow-build wonders instead of running specialists.


90 BC: I found SE pig. It also has a fish. 3 workers are chopping.


My missionary spreads Taoism to NE Pig, the only city running specialists at the moment. It will pick up a third when I swap back to Caste System, but really it needs Civil Service to spread irrigation before it becomes good. (That's why CS is my next tech).


Also, 90 BC: Hagia Sophia in a distant land.


State of my cities at the end of the turnset. I notice that Copper is at 0 happiness and move a warrior there. I'll build some more warriors soon.


On the whole, I have no idea how I'm doing. I so rarely play no tech trades or isolated starts that I don't have a default plan. After Civil Service, I'll go back and grab Iron Working and Calendar, then go for Optics and Banking (for Merchantalism). I may be able to get Liberalism first, but the only thing I really want is Astronomy, so not much point in beelining it. Besides, with Optics, I can turn on an Espionage Economy, which will probably pay off nicely with all those old techs I've skipped.

I still have only 4 workers, because most cities don't have good tiles to grow into. With Representation, I'd rather run a scientist than work a cottage, especially since soon I'll farm everything anyway, so I mostly develop resources and 1-2 hills, then move on to the next city. But with CS and Iron Working soon, I'll need another 6 or so workers next turnset.

Goals for next turnset:

• Develop all my cities to health / happiness cap.
• Get a 2nd city slowbuilding failgold.
• Meet the AIs. Hopefully I'm not dreadfully behind.

Dirk1302 said:

Failgold is an interesting idea. I have used it of course but more as an afterthought for a city that hasn't something useful to do then as an actual whip strat to fuel finances. I wonder if you don't run out of wonders too soon on deity.

It might actually be even stronger in an AW game where commerce is scarce, even more trouble finding a good wonder of course but there's always the likes of moai to fool around with.

Click to expand...

I doubt you can compare it
It's a no barbs marathon, there is a lot more time to play around with stuffs like fail gold.
It shows these settings are easy going, in a normal/barbs game even on IMM most of the time the cities need to build other things.

Hey rhino. Again, since the premise of this game is to run at 100% science (or espionage) for as much of the game as possible, maybe you want to keep track and keep us up to date on what percentage of the turns you are achieving this and how. Obviously, being isolated in this case has most probably hindered that goal. (No cash from trading, begging or capturing cities)

OneLeggedRhino said:

90 BC: I found SE pig. It also has a fish. 3 workers are chopping.

Click to expand...

Just a thought, you have room for one more city down south, fueled by the pigs. SE pig dont need the pigs all the time.

Therefore if you place the city on the desert, 1w of the deserthill, you get a nice city via irrigation.

bobbyboy29 said:

Hey rhino. Again, since the premise of this game is to run at 100% science (or espionage) for as much of the game as possible, maybe you want to keep track and keep us up to date on what percentage of the turns you are achieving this and how. Obviously, being isolated in this case has most probably hindered that goal. (No cash from trading, begging or capturing cities)

Click to expand...

So far I've been doing terribly. Probably running 0% research about 40% of the time. Sure, there are some scientists on even then, but it's not what I had imagined. I seriously had not planned to do an isolated game with this, but it seemed kind of interesting with NTT turned on. Though maybe the problem is NTT, which forces me to tech really hard to keep up with the AIs (meaning I run scientists instead of hills). But I'll try to put something in about how much I'm running gold vs research. Thanks for the feedback.

@Archredbeard Thanks, that's a good spot, I'll add it to the dotmap.

Meeting the Neighbors (Turns 350-436, Years 1-680 AD)

I start the turnset dicovering...


I'm the least advanced civ in the world. Not all that surprising, since everyone else has huge bumps to research, but come on, hasn't anyone over-expanded and killed their economy?

Delhi made several workboats for all the new cities I've been founding. Now, with Civil Service and Iron Working on the way, it's time to crank out some workers. I wind up with about 10, I think.


110 AD: Civil Service, and a swap to Bureaucracy 2 turns later (civics were in cooldown from a slavery swap). Next: Iron Working.

So far this turnset, I've run 100% research about 12 turns, and 0% about 5, so missing my goal by a big amount. But in 160 AD (turn 367) I get a nice break: 1000 failgold from Chitchen Itza. That will last me 20 turns at 100%.


200 AD: Iron Working. So that's what that hard grey stuff that's been lying around is. (I have 2 sources). Next: Calendar (in 8 turns).

220 AD: Next Great Scientist pops out. I want an academy in Commerce, but is it premature?


20 commerce per turn. Looks good. He makes an academy.

Also, SW Seafood is building Moai Statues (for real, not for failgold), and MidWest Pig is building Angkor Wat (for failgold).

What are the AIs up to?


A Great General and Shwedagon Paya. Good to see they're still fighting.

290 AD: Calendar. Next: Metal Casting, Machinery, Compass and Optics. I've been 100% research all this time.

350 AD: Moai finishes. Another 600 failgold, for another 12 turns at 100%.


380 AD: Metal Casting. Now that my cities are online and the failgold is coming in, this research is going pretty fast. Machinery will take 14 turns.

490 AD (turn 399): I have to run 0% research again for a bit. That was 32 turns at 100% research, making the totals so far this turnset 44 at 100% and 5 at 0%.


Also, you can see all the jungle I need to chop. Between CS, IW and Calendar, I went from needing 4 workers to a whole fleet really quickly.

Early 500s: Great Library and Parthenon built in faraway lands, and Islam founded.


550 AD: Machinery, slowly researched with just scientists. On to Compass. After a couple turns at 0%, I notice some health problems, and run 100% for 5 turns to finish it. So that's another 13 turns at 0% and 5 at 100%.

Commerce starts on the Palace. I want the Bureaucracy bonus to apply to the high-commerce city, rather than high-production Delhi. Why? Because the +50% applies to base commerce, meaning it's multiplied by all the other bonuses, whereas it simply adds to all the other hammer bonuses. It's nice on hammers, but killer on commerce.


570 AD: NE Fish founded. Almost done with my dotmap. (Delhi is producing the settlers).


585 AD: Compass. On to Optics. I run another 7 turns at 100% before running out of cash. Delhi is slow-building Angkor Wat, but that gold isn't in yet.

610 AD: Found WestCoast Inner, immediately South of Commerce. Its job is to work some cottages. Will never be a great city, but it only costs 9 GPT and comes with 4 trade routes.


That finishes out my dotmap for now. I may squeeze in another city in the Southeast once Astronomy comes in.

615 AD (turn 423), I run out of cash again. Totals: 56 turns at 100%, 18 at 0%.


With 90 research per turn from scientists, tech keeps moving decently, but markets would be nice during these gold regrowth phases.

645 AD (turn 429): 100% research again. Should have done it a couple turns earlier to get Optics faster. So that's 24 turns at 0% so far.


655 AD: Optics. I build 2 carvels in 4 turns (Delhi and SW Seafood, my Statues city) and start exploring. Next tech: Astronomy.

My cities at the end of the turnset:


675 AD (turn 435): 0% research. My breakeven right now is about 50%, so if someone would just build Angkor Wat, I'd be able to make good on my rates. As is, I've run 62 turns at 100%, 24 at 0%.

Just off my coast to the Southwest, I find Mansa Munsa.


Tech trades screen:


I turn on spy specialists everywhere I can, for 30 EP/turn. That will go up as more cities build courthouses and come online. And once Astronomy comes in, I'll put commerce toward EP, too. Militarily, my goal is naval supremacy, so it doesn't matter that I have no land force at home. Once I explore more, I'll think about invasions.

That's the end of the turnset. I ran 100% research for 62 out of 87 turns, or 72% of the time. Far from the 90% goal, but enough that I feel pretty good about not building markets. Let's do a little math to see if my gut is right:


Goals for next turnset:

• More spies! I have so many techs to steal.
• Get Astronomy, open some borders, and hopefully get the circumnavigation bonus.
• Steal or research Monotheism, swap to Organized Religion, spread Taoism to Munsa for the spy bonus.

At least here Mansa wouldn't be able to tech whore properly

Unlocking the Mysteries of the Stars (Turns 436-474, Years 680-870 AD)

Since I'm new to Organized, I like to keep tabs on how much it's doing. Right now, it's saving me about 23 GPT in civics, or taking 1/4 off my total costs. That translates to probably 10-15% on the research slider (for breakeven).


My carvels continue exploring. I meet Rangar in the Northeast.

And Pericles and Stalin on Munsa's continent. Stalin (with 10 cities) is at war with Munsa (with 5).


The tech situation:


And the spy situation:


Rangar is the only one that's spent fewer total EP than me (that's the 93% multiplier, vs everyone else's over-100%). Since everyone knows the same batch of ancient techs, I'll go for Rangar first.

Further along on Rangar's continent (to the NE), I meet Saladin. A few turns later, on Munsa's (to the SW), I meet Gilgamesh. Their techs are similar to the other AIs.

I believe that's everyone. Here's how all the AIs feel about one another.


I get another Great Scientist. The next bulbs are Paper and Education (useless for me), so I settle him in Commerce. Adds 15 research per turn.


My production cities build carvels and spies. By the end of the turnset, I have about 6 carvels and 8 spies, with more spies on the way. They all go to Rangar's nearest city, taking 5 turns to make a straight-line round trip. I wouldn't be this obvious against a human, but the AI will just think that my carvels like visiting his nearest city. Tourism, I suppose.

Gilgamesh will sell a map for 145 gold.


I'm the only one with Optics, and I have 2 carvels, but what if one of them gets stuck in ice? It would be silly to lose the circumnavigation bonus over 145 G. So I do it.


Wow, that's a lot of land.

It immediately gets me circumnavigation. Seems you don't actually have to map out a path around the world, just get vision in every vertical column.

Perecles adopts mercantilism. Hopefully he's well ahead in techs. If everyone else goes merch as well, my Astronomy plan is toast.


Top 10 list. I'm the 5th largest. At least I'm puny instead of hopeless.


Munsa makes peace with Stalin. A bit later, he becomes a voluntary vassal of Perecles. And I swap to slavery for 5 turns to whip a granary and some other buildings.

Gilgamesh: "Now that you bought my world map, want to give me your map for free?"


(No. The answer is no).

770 AD (turn 454): I go 100% research on Astronomy. I'll need 1 or 2 more turn at 0% to finish it out. In this 40 turn turnset, I spent about 20 at 0% research, way below my target. But the trade routes wind up being a huge boost, so next turnset should be better.



800 AD: Rangar (with 10 cities) asks me to declare on Saladin (with 5).


Saladin will hate me hard because of religion, and neither of them even has Optics. So I accept, but don't do any actual fighting. Once I steal the techs for an invasion, I'll conquer both of them. (I've been saving the Forbidden Palace for a second continent).

820 AD: Gilgamesh adopts mercantilism too. May need to make peace with Saladin to open some trade routes.


840 AD: A Great Spy! Do I settle him for 6 research / 12 espionage, or build Scotland Yard?


I decide on Scotland (in Commerce), because I'll be running 100% Espionage soon.

State of spying. I'm ready to grab some techs from Rangar.


860 AD: Astronomy comes in, and fixes my economy.


I'd been at 40% breakeven research. (That, plus no one completing Angkor Wat, is why I was about 50% research this turnset). With an extra 77 commerce from international trade routes, it jumps to 70% breakeven. If some failgold comes in soon, I should get a ton of stealing done next turnset.

Next techs: Nationalism and Constitution. I want jails for the EP boost.


Also, I make a ton of resource trades, getting me 12 GPT, 2 happiness and 3 health.


The state of my cities at the end of this turnset. If I had more wonders available, I'd have 2 more cities working them. Hopefully spying turns something up.


Goals for next turnset:

• Steal a bunch of techs from Rangar. I want parity so I can build up for that war.
• Spread Taoism to both continents (for cheaper spying).
• Figure out my next spy target. Munsa is close, but I think Perecles is the tech lead.