Setting up whipping cycles

I've read this a couple of times and I have no clue what it means. My whipping extends to if I want a building/unit now, I 2-pop whip it. I don't think of it in terms of cycles.

Is it a concept where in the early game, I should be whipping every 10 turns? Say whipping a worker every 10 turns and overflowing into whatever I need at the time? Is it simply to whip everytime I can 2-pop whip regardless of stacking unhappies.

Am I over-thinking this? I understand how I can use the whip and whip overflow - I just don't understand whipping "cycles".

On IMM level, how much more important is whipping? I'm moving up from EMP and although I have pre-chopping down pretty good, I still question whether I use the whip ok.

Let's take HA whipping as example
50h in a city with 2 good food ressources and some mines (ideal case).

2 pop whip at size 4 (or more if you did grow before getting to HAs) to always work the food.
Use overflow and mines to build the next HA slower.
Whip again at size 4, and so on.

Once you stack up too much unhapiness you can remove a food tile and work more mines to let the city recover, or completely whip it down if the need for units is urgent.

knowing when to whip is absolutely critical at highest levels. The same is for knowing when not to whip.

It's your best production in most cities for very long time.

As for the whip cycle. you don't want to stack too much unhapiness too soon and since the penalty lasts 10 turns, you're trying to follow this 10 turns whip cycle at least in the beginning phase of game.

There is valid calculation of natural production of tiles worked and regrowth times and overall production gained with whip or not whipping.

I think it would be actually best if you provide your cities and we try to look at them and judge if they are worth whipping regularly or not. Since this has to be judged on city-by-city basis.

This whip cycles work best when your happy cap is low, but that typically is your first 90 turns of game.

Your target should be (if you have good capital) to have him around 1 AD around 10 size, the rest of cities could still be regularly whipped if the need arises.

Then are times for whip bursts, most known is after getting education, but could be other (like for example right after getting MC for forges or some other good building like factories+coal plants).
Then of course whip bursts in military production phase.

So you can't "overthink" whipping ;-).

edit:
I knew someone will beat me if I type so long post ;-)

As far as I have understod it, stacking unhappiness is something you only do in very rare circumstances.
Perhaps when setting up a new town and you want a fishingboat and a granary out very early, if the happy-cap is 15+, the extra +2 unhappy won't be much of a problem.
Or if you need a army _fast_ then stacking unhappiness might also be ok.

Aim for more than a 1 pop-whip every time you whip, is a good idea.

You should whip every 10 turns (or every 30 turns in maraton), but there are some conditions.

You need enough food, so that your city grows fast enough.
You need enough population left to work important tiles, whiping away population that works a goldmine is probably a huge mistake.
You need a granary.
Your city should be small enough. (Makes little sense to whip in a 12+ pop city)

The reason you should whip untill your arm hurts, is because it's effective.
I don't know the exact numbers, but it's something like this:
to grow from population 3 to pop 4 with a granary, you need 20 food.
If you are at pop 4, and you whip, you get 40 hammers.
You have gained 40 hammers, for just 20 food. Quite a bargain!

Just whip like a demon till u get caste system and stay in that, its better

Mylene said:

Let's take HA whipping as example
50h in a city with 2 good food ressources and some mines (ideal case).

2 pop whip at size 4 (or more if you did grow before getting to HAs) to always work the food.
Use overflow and mines to build the next HA slower.
Whip again at size 4, and so on.

Once you stack up too much unhapiness you can remove a food tile and work more mines to let the city recover, or completely whip it down if the need for units is urgent.

Click to expand...

Thank Mylene. Did I read correctly: 50 hammers in a 4 pop city? I assume there's overflow from the previous build?

What do you mean with whipping cycles? Does that mean that you are considering a situation where you know that you will, during 100 turns, produce the same type of units and you want to maximize the production during those 100 turns? Knowing that nothing will disrupt your plan, no random events, no backstabbing, no need for another building / unit or "those extra 5 BPT" that would give you research x 1 turn earlier.

In that case I wonder what type of game you are playing? When I play civilization I try to find an edge that I can utilize in order to get more land / remove an opponent and secure his land.

In order to do this I tend to end up with a situation similar to "once I get access to horse archers in 2 turns, I would need to spam these units like there's no tomorrow and attack within the 13 turn window of opportunity before AI has counter for unit".

That's when I utilize the whip in the following manner, once you get your research, set all cities to produce the troop you need, end turn, whip & end turn, end turn, whip & end turn. And then do that until you have the troops you need or have stacked enough whipping anger. I usually aim at trying to get 5 whips during 10 turns and then immediately attack opponent.

That's my "whipping cycle", it's quite easy to remember and even a novice can utilize it to it's full potential. Combine it with monarchy and you can pretty much whip ad infinitum. Combine it with knowing mechanics for whip overflow and auto-upgrades etc for pure epicness.

The problem with whip cycles is not avoiding anger (that's easy enough to manage with BUG), it's finding the right one.

Consider this:
Ignore happiness for now.
You are size 1 and want to enter a 2->1 cycle. Your choice is between a 3F tile or a 1F5H tile.

You want to maximize production. What do you do?

It's not as clear as it looks...

AFAIK, a whip cycle mostly refers to the time required for whip anger to fade (10 turns on normal).
This means that if you whip a city every 10 turns, then it will never suffer more than 1 whip anger, which is convenient if you don't want to examine the intricates of Slavery.
However, it isn't more than a rule of thumb regarding how one can whip.


Mylene gave a strong hint : optimal whipping is related to the tiles a city can work, to whip overflow and to your happy cap.
- Tiles : If whipping a size 4 city means it stops working a corn tile or a gold mine, then it should be whipped at size 5 or higher. If you want to get into it, you can Alt+S your cities with "Whip at size N" reminders, where N is the number of important tiles the city has access to +2, if you're doing 2pop whips.
- Happy cap : related to your available tiles and growth potential. Unless specific circumstances, you don't want to sink your cities into anger (war preparations are the typical "specific circumstances").
- Whip overflow : can be maximized. If you whip an item the turn before the number of citizens to be whipped decreases, then you'll max your hammers. Whip overflow can be maximized by micromanaging the production queue (e.g. take an item off the queue if there are enough hammers invested into it but the city needs to grow before whipping).


And then there's another factor that can supersede the others : timing.
Some things you need asap and, for example, trying to maximize whip overflow becomes a bad idea.
Similarly, if you're planning on running a golden age, avoiding to whip some cities so they can grow and work boosted tiles can make sense.

Overall, a sensible whip cycle should take into account the available tiles, growth potential and happy cap.

A whip cycle is when you figure out the best possible size to whip a city, based on the number of good squares it has. It involves math like in Kossin's post. Unless you enjoy that sort of math or really want to maximize your game, just use this rule of thumb:

First, grow the city so it's working all its resource squares and floodplains.

See how much pop it will grow in 10 turns. If that's less than 1 pop, don't whip the city except for critical infrastructure.

If it's 2 or more pop, then every 10 turns, whip it down to the size where it works only resources / floodplains. Let the city grow past its happy cap, since that will give you more pop to whip.

If it's only 1 pop, then pick something you want to whip and wait until you have the pop to whip it and keep working the good tiles.

Boom, you got a whip cycle that's somewhere near optimal.

If you know you want to heavily whip a city, farm (rather than cottage) the floodplains and any grassland you'll work as the city grows. The food is more valuable, and if you need gold, put the whip overflow into a wonder for failgold.

As your happy cap rises, you'll eventually want to stop whipping so your cities can grow. But that's a whole different article.

I think BUG helps immensely in understanding this. All of the numbers are right there in front of you, no hovering with your mouse over crap.

It's all micro. It works best when two cities are sharing resources - food, hammers, and/or cottages.

Thanks for the responses everyone.

@Kossin: thought 3 minutes about this, but i can't figure out why you chose to compare a 1F/5H tile (Grassland Hill + railroad + levee?! Mined sheep on PH + levee/railroad??!) with a 3F tile like an unirrigated corn or a farm pre-bio. The first is very, very far down the techtree, the latter something you mostly see at the beginning of the game. Given the situation that you really want to whip a 2 pop city when you have researched steampower and railroad, there's simply nothing that you can whip for one pop at that point in the game.

Was good for me to read this, I have no confidence with my whipping skills and avoid it at a cost in all games. I would like to integrate whipping in to my pre-caste game as all the better players stress the efficiency of the whip.

Many thanks to the contributors

ahcos said:

@Kossin: thought 3 minutes about this, but i can't figure out why you chose to compare a 1F/5H tile (Grassland Hill + railroad + levee?! Mined sheep on PH + levee/railroad??!) with a 3F tile like an unirrigated corn or a farm pre-bio. The first is very, very far down the techtree, the latter something you mostly see at the beginning of the game. Given the situation that you really want to whip a 2 pop city when you have researched steampower and railroad, there's simply nothing that you can whip for one pop at that point in the game.

Click to expand...

Grass hill Copper/Iron mine is 1F5H.

well okay, but still it seems pretty ... unrealistic to compare a non-improved tile / a weak tile to a damn strong one...?!

Unrealistic? Why to be unrealistic? The results at the end show that they are pretty close.

Which only comes to show how strong is the whip. It makes a simple grass farm or unimproved floodplain in to

damn strong one

Click to expand...

only using the mighty whip

From this point of view the whole example makes alot more sense

What whipping efficiency calculations don't include thou, especially early in the game, is the lost chance to use..let's say 2 scientists to keep gathering GP points. Or to have any research at all going during a very early rush like HAs, for example towards currency.

The saying "whip till your fingers bleed" isn't always the way to go
The exception ofc is when you have reached tech status where you think you can win and close the game with the unit gained, often that is Cavalry or maybe cannons.

my limited whipping science comes down to:

is whipping going to be a great ROI? (whipping a multiplier, happiness buildings, military)

can i build up my citizens after whipping at a reasonable amount of time?

also i do take into account if whipping can get rid of unhappy citizens, and net an increase in happy faces after finishing whatever i'm working on.