Nobles' Club LXXXIV: Tokugawa of Japan

dalamb

dalamb

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May 9, 2006
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Kingston, Ontario
The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Tokugawa of Japan, whom we last played in NC XVII. The Japanese start with Fishing and The Wheel.
Tokugawa.jpg
  • Traits: Tokugawa is AGGressive and PROtective, an entirely military set of traits. AGG gives Combat I to all melee and gunpowder units, and doubles production of two XP-granting buildings, barracks and drydocks. PRO gives Drill I and City Garrison I to all archery and gunpowder units, and doubles production of two defensive buildings, walls and castles.
  • The UU: The Samurai, a Maceman with two first strikes and Drill I. It would synthesize better with Tokugawa's traits if PRO gave the next promotion in the Drill line instead of just Drill I, but them's the breaks.
    Samurai.jpg

  • The UB: The Shale Plant, a Coal Plant that gives +10%:hammers: (on top of the +50% Power gives to factories). It's a late-game UB, which to many people makes it weak, but it is valuable in any late-game victory condition.
    ShalePlant.jpg
And the start:
start.jpg

Spoiler map details :
Islands, few tiny islands, low sea level. Even with low sea level, this only gives you about half the land one expects from other map types, and almost certainly gives you (and all the AIs) an isolated start (and thus no chance for an early rush). These two factors mean you tech slower than you might expect, and have fewer resource types to use, until after Optics. Consider reading r_rolo1's advice on such starts. For those who play with huts, bear in mind that none of the AI is going to steal them from you, so you can delay popping them to give the possibility of a better technology.
Spoiler edits :
Regenerated several times to get an idea of what to say about map characteristics, threw out the ones where the AIs could contact each other pre-Astronomy, and picked the one that looked best of the remaining. Added a river. Verified that we have iron for our UU and coal for our UB.
Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:
There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do suggest that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards. You can post as often as you like; here's one suggestion:
  • 4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
  • 1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
  • 500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
  • 1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other
  • continent if applicable, etc)
  • 1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
  • End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)
This is just a guideline. If you're trying to improve your game, then posting more frequent updates, in as much detail as you can manage, is the best way to get suggestions from other players. If you come to what seems like a major decision and you want some advice, post an update, regardless of what game-year it is.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps in the early days of the series, and all of you for playing.
Click to expand...
The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 84 Tokugawa Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels)You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Noble. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

  1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
  2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
  3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
  4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
  5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
  6. Exit the worldbuilder.
  7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
Spoiler huts and events :
Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.
 

Attachments

Ewww... Toku. :p

But capital is really nice. Plains hill and lots of food.

Will probably attempt some kind of draft gunpowder unit bum rush.
 
Hmm. When I asked which leader would fit best with this round's map script plans, at least one person thought Toku would be good. If you get Samurai you have machinery, which means (start building samurai) > compass > optics > (start scouting targets) > astronomy > (invade). Not as sure a thing as a march across Pangaea, but you still might be able to use them. Plus their Drill I persists when you upgrade them.

Those who want to know nothing about the map in advance should comment on whether it bothers them that we're talking about isolation out in the open (unspoilered). I did mention what I was planning in the bullpen thread.
 
I really do plan to finish the Peter game, but figured I'd kick off a dotmap discussion:
Spoiler :
Having just chopped and whipped my first settler (possibly rather later than I should have), and having explored all my territory (some of it with a workboat), I took a stab at a dotmap:
1825BCdotmap.jpg

Here's my thoughts on the various locations:
  • It might be good to get the marble online soon for the Oracle; if so the three choices seem to be black (where the warrior is), white (2S), or on top of the marble. Long-term, white is good because of the cottageable grassland, but there's no good production to make a monument to expand onto the marble. Black was my first thought; it can get a monument quickly by working the forested plains hill, but has no food. On top of the marble gets the marble online immediately with Masonry. I think on-marble is therefore best, but it could wait for the 2nd settler.
  • Light green is good for gems, post-IW, and can get fish and horses soon. The PH would give some initial production, and settling would pop the hut giving just as good (or better?) odds than a scout.
  • The island cities would get a little "intercontinental" trade. and Darker Blue (far SW) might get stone online fast enough to make the Pyramids worth a short, at least for failgold.
  • Red and Maroon (to the west) and light blue (southeast) aren't that great and should wait a while.
I think light green is the best place for the first settler, with on-the-marble for the 2nd and some of the islands after that. Opinions?

At this point I think the GLH may be out of reach, but it's very tempting to try given that all my proposed locations are coastal.
Spoiler my game history :
Pottery first to start a granary ASAP, then agriculture > mining > BW (slavery) > hunting > AH > Sailing; soon will start the Oracle route: myst > masonry (for the marble) > med > priest. built workboat > granary > workboat > warriors until happy cap > worker > warrior and workboats while chop/whip a 2nd worker and a settler
 
dalamb said:
I really do plan to finish the Peter game, but figured I'd kick off a dotmap discussion:
Spoiler :
Having just chopped and whipped my first settler (possibly rather later than I should have), and having explored all my territory (some of it with a workboat), I took a stab at a dotmap:
1825BCdotmap.jpg

Here's my thoughts on the various locations:
  • It might be good to get the marble online soon for the Oracle; if so the three choices seem to be black (where the warrior is), white (2S), or on top of the marble. Long-term, white is good because of the cottageable grassland, but there's no good production to make a monument to expand onto the marble. Black was my first thought; it can get a monument quickly by working the forested plains hill, but has no food. On top of the marble gets the marble online immediately with Masonry. I think on-marble is therefore best, but it could wait for the 2nd settler.
  • Light green is good for gems, post-IW, and can get fish and horses soon. The PH would give some initial production, and settling would pop the hut giving just as good (or better?) odds than a scout.
  • The island cities would get a little "intercontinental" trade. and Darker Blue (far SW) might get stone online fast enough to make the Pyramids worth a short, at least for failgold.
  • Red and Maroon (to the west) and light blue (southeast) aren't that great and should wait a while.
I think light green is the best place for the first settler, with on-the-marble for the 2nd and some of the islands after that. Opinions?

At this point I think the GLH may be out of reach, but it's very tempting to try given that all my proposed locations are coastal.
Spoiler my game history :
Pottery first to start a granary ASAP, then agriculture > mining > BW (slavery) > hunting > AH > Sailing; soon will start the Oracle route: myst > masonry (for the marble) > med > priest. built workboat > granary > workboat > warriors until happy cap > worker > warrior and workboats while chop/whip a 2nd worker and a settler
Click to expand...

Spoiler :
The first city should share that rice, the capital has tons of food as it is. 2W of the rice will still get the marble in time for oracle. Whip the monument asap here.

GLighthouse could be strong here. There is room for four offshore cities. That means, with currency, all four trade routes in all cities will get the oversea bonus.
 
dalamb said:
Those who want to know nothing about the map in advance should comment on whether it bothers them that we're talking about isolation out in the open (unspoilered). I did mention what I was planning in the bullpen thread.
Click to expand...

I would rather have no extra details of the map, honestly, because it makes things much easier. It won't affect things too much, but I would probably have them in mind already.
 
I agree about no map details, but as I've said before, I don't understand at all why the "map type" is not clearly identified. Nobles Club is more of an instructional series for newer players. Sure, folks like me play for fun as well, but it is mainly for those guys. Indicating the map type leads to instructional pre-game discussion. "Isolation" could be inherent to the map type and such a possibility is something experience players could point out in such organic discussions. (The map maker need not make any announcement one way or the other)

This is the only series - official or unofficial - that I'm aware of that does not mention the map type, outside of an occasional SGOTM or GOTM. To point, Noble's Club seems the most nonsensical of places to actually hide the map type. The series should cater to and help the less experienced as opposed to catering to the whims of experienced players.

Again, outside an occasional SGOTM/GOTM setup, I'd say that I know the map type going into a game about 99% of the time. I realize everyone has their preferences, but I'm curious how many others and how regularly they play without knowing the map type. It's pretty basic info.
 
Emperor, no huts or events, normal speed.

I think I might play a little different than some of you do (most I would imagine, since I am certainly not going for a record time)....and I played this differently than I thought I would when I saw the original post with the description of the scenario. Not quite done yet, but in a winning position in 1844 by wonder whoring?!?!?

I put a lot of detail on the start....actually pulled out the pen and paper for the event log when I realized I had what was a pretty good start!

4000 BC - 25AD
Spoiler :
SIP, teched Ag (3680) - AH - Sailing while building 2 WBs, then a settler. Not what I expected to do when I initially settled in place, but as I scouted out the land I decided it was my best bet. Also, Tokugawa has bad starting techs imo....so I needed to get something for a worker to do, otherwise I'd be just building roads before the settler came out after irrigating the rice and pasturing the cows. Normally wouldn't have gone with AH second either, but once I decided to go with the double WB followed by settler start I figured I needed to get that capital growing as fast as possible.

At this point I had scouted the island and I knew I wanted to settle on the stone with a city and eventually on the marble. So settler before worker in this case to me was the best bet to snag some of the early wonders as well (wound up getting a lot of them though). I only had my original warrior out fogbusting in the middle of the map and I needed to give him some help with another city. Here's the order I went:

3680BC - Agriculture
3240BC - Animal Hus
2840BC - Sailing
2640BC - Founded Osaka on the plains hill below the Gems. I think this is where I made a very good decision for the start I was going for - I wanted a city that would be able to grow quickly and I wanted to take all the pressure off my capital to build settlers. This was the only spot on the island with fish in the first ring and an extra hammer in the city. Eventually I was able to use every square but one on the main island and the little islands just off the southern coast. Osaka built a work boat immediately
2600BC - Mining
2280BC - Masonry
2080BC - Mysticism - I went Mysticism here because I knew I would have a settler out shortly from Osaka, there was a Galley that would be ready to take him to the stone immediately, and I thought I might sneak stonehenge in if I did this properly since it hadn't gone yet. I was assuming there might not be any industrious leaders at this point.
1840BC - Tokyo on the stone. I realized when I founded the city that I hadn't actually linked my cities yet because there was one blacked out square on the water at both the NW and SE blocking trade. Luckily I was able to fix this within 2 turns.
1640BC - Stonehenge - this is kind of late - definitely lucky, but it made a pretty big difference in settling the rest of the spots I wanted since I didn't have to build border pops to get the seafood.
1560BC - Bronze Working. Revolt into slavery.
1440BC - Great Wall. Whipped 2 pop points for this. Wasn't necessary to get this wonder on this map, but it was only 6 turns when I started building it so I figured I'd go for the extra great person points and see what happened.
1160BC - Polytheism (need it for Great Library anyway and thought I might sneak in the Oracle because I was just about to found a city on the marble).
1100BC - Satsuma founded on the marble
950BC - Priesthood (hoping i didn't waste time on this...)
825BC - Pottery
800BC - Oracle, took Metal Casting
750BC - Great Prophet (settled)
725BC - Great Lighthouse. I had been chopping this out but diverted to the oracle and timed that to finish right after pottery. Only had another chop or so for the Lighthouse. This was nice to have.
300BC - founded Kagoshima on the eastern shore to get fish in it's 2nd ring and finished the Pyramids. Revolted into representation
250BC - Iron Working comes in - felt I needed it now so I could get the Gems going. Colossus was built somewhere else on this turn as well. Clearly someone is teching reasonably well since I took MC with the oracle. I kind of wanted to build this, but no copper and started when I finished Pyramids.
200BC - Writing
125BC - Another Prophet. Settled. 2 GPs without Philosophical and without running any library scientists is nice before 1AD.
75BC - Gems are both finished being mined on this turn.
50BC - aesthetics
25AD - Literature and Nara founded between Kagoshima and Osaka. My lone warrior is still fog busting in the west along with a galley off the coast. Only 1 Warrior ever popped up over there and he just kept going around in circles.


I think I was in a really strong position at this point....got a little sloppy though as I tend to do. I really like the shiny buildings.

25AD - Liberalism

Spoiler :
Here's where I think I started to lose focus. I was worried I wasn't going to have a religion and I wasn't sure if I should go for Christianity or not. Decided I was probably in a tech lead and I could go for it. Next 3 techs after Literature were Hunting (dumb decision, but only 1 turn I think. Wanted the extra happy and hammers from the elephant), Monotheism and then started Theology in 125 AD.

175AD - Great Library finishes
225 AD - Theology comes in and founded Christianity. Started Code of Laws now I guess
500 AD - Parthenon
600 AD - Civil Service comes in and I get a great engineer. Debated what to do here. Decided to use the engineer to build the AP and get the hammer bonus, since I was pretty sure I'd build a lot of religious buildings and Sankore. Not sure if I went to Bureau and Org Religion right now or waited a couple of turns.
820 AD - Hagia Sophia. I never build this, losing direction. Extra engineering points I guess.
1000 AD - University of Sankore - I'm obviously teching up the Liberalism line
1070 AD - I finally have the entire island settled the way I want it. Had to build an Axe to get rid of the warrior stuck in the NW corner.
2v1m5c5.jpg

1170 AD - Get Liberalism and meet my first AI, Hannibal. A great scientist also pops on this turn. Cut some kind of deal with Hannibal, get his map. Can see where Russia is as well. Take Nationalism and start building the Taj.


Liberalism to 1800 AD (not done yet though)

Spoiler :
Started meeting the other AIs. Joao was next and I wound up trading for all his techs - he was pretty far behind and I was able to get a good deal with him. Went up the Astro line next. Swapped into Caste for some reason along with Theocracy (started building military) during my Taj GA and wound up swapping out of caste shortly after that. I guess I was looking for the extra hammer out of my handful of workshops, but I never did anything exciting with specialists.

1330 AD - Met Peter and Hammi. Got Constitution from Peter.
1350 AD - Spread Christianity to Joao - he was the only AI who didn't found a religion.
1380 AD - Great Artist popped. Not a disaster, used him for a GA.
1390 AD - got the around the world bonus, met the rest of the AIs by now as well.
1440 AD - First to economics. Saved the Merchant for sushi since I have a pretty low chance of popping a merchant.
1545 AD - Get rifling. I was planning to just cap Joao quickly at this point since he was close, but changed my mind in a bit.
1595 AD - With low odds popped another merchant. Settled this one.
1685 AD - this is the next note I made (not going through the event log at this point). Decided to attack Delhi, sailed over there with a decent stack and a bunch of frigates. Had promoted my military to amphibious so it was kind of a slaughter. His big stack was in the capital but outdated and I took that first. Only one casualty. Delhi was a holy city with 4 settled scientists, settled priest, sistine, spiral, kremlin. Pretty awesome actually. I also knew that he had versailles built in one of his cities as well (didn't know which) but that is why I had changed my mind. Figured it would be the most cost efficient and India had crept up to 2nd in the standings.
2qjadxs.jpg

1755 AD - India is now dead. I'm 2 turns from Bio.
1800 AD - I had decided that Delhi would be my wall street city. At some point another engineer had popped and I had been holding that as well. Founded both Sushi and Mining Inc in Delhi on this turn. Sushi is really powerful on this map.


I have a pretty big lead at this point, although there are a couple that are doing well with techs. I've been spinning my wheels for the last 44 years (in 1844AD now) building up my infrastructure, starting to spread the corporations, etc. I'm going to attack someone shortly, but haven't decided whether to pick on someone weak or someone strong yet. Need to get a SOD all in one place if I'm going to take on someone strong.

I definitely could be done this game by now...but it's been kind of fun and if I milk this a bit I'll have some very powerful corporations. Try to finish tomorrow!
 
Finished up from the previous spot. 1919 Diplomation :)

Spoiler :
Decided to just start attacking based out of the former Indian Island. Korea was weak on the military side but getting strong in techs (had beaten me to Eiffel and Broadway I think) so I went there first. Took Nampo then Seoul without taking anyone off a boat and he capped. Got me the Eiffel and Broadway, so that was nice.

Went after Carthage next since they were right below India. Took Carthage, then Utica, then Kerk, then Sicca, then Hippo before he would cap. Almost lost one of the cities back on a counter attack but was able to move some guys off a boat and into the city to hold it.

Wasn't sure what I'd do next, then Peter asked me to join him in a war against Babylon. Figured why not. Took a couple of turns to get some guys over there, then took out Babylon, Akkad, Dur before I decided to ask for a diplo victory which was successful.

Top 2 Cities at the end were Delhi, which was a Wall Street / Red Cross / Sushi / Mining Inc. powerhouse, pumping out Marines and pretty much anything I wanted. Capital (Kyoto) was building ICBMs in 2 turns without using Police State, although I never actually fired one off....was saving those for Peter if I went that far.

de7khc.jpg

2iih6qs.jpg

2nqvbt4.jpg

1ih106.jpg


For any noble players out there that are actually looking to improve, you can learn a lot about naval warfare in this game. Japanese are excellent for this I discovered - as someone else mentioned you can very early in the game run theocracy and build a barracks to get Amphibious Samurai. I didn't do that (did build a couple of samurai, but didn't actually attack until I had mostly rifles and some muskets) but someone who wanted to get a very early win could almost certainly by going up the Astro line first after getting Samurai warriors. Libbing Astro would almost certainly be faster, although it wasn't what I chose to do.

At the end of the game I was running civics that most probably wouldn't, but I was having health problems so needed environmentalism even with the crazy cost increase on my corporations. Included a save a couple of turns before the end of the game if anyone who hasn't used Corps much wants to mess around with it. I have Cristo as well, so you can change around the civics to see what happens.

Thanks for hosting!
 

Attachments

@ecuwins and dalamb about the dot map
Spoiler :
ecuwins said:
The first city should share that rice, the capital has tons of food as it is. 2W of the rice will still get the marble in time for oracle. Whip the monument asap here.
Click to expand...
No need for a monument. 1N of the horses is the right spot.

GLighthouse could be strong here. There is room for four offshore cities. That means, with currency, all four trade routes in all cities will get the oversea bonus.
Click to expand...
Pack 'em in. I put 11 cities on this map and it's possible to find space for 12. Alternate between mainland and offshore cities for maximum growth.
 
dalamb said:
@Abegweit: I'd love to see your map if you can take the time to post it.
Click to expand...
I'm about ready to go to bed so not now. I'll try to get a post up about my game tomorrow night. As we speak, it's 1600AD (Immortal Normal) and I have taken down three civs. Three more to go. Re-directing to another. :mischief:

I'll post something which says nothing off-island. Perhaps until 100AD, which is roughly when I had all 11 cities founded.
 
dalamb said:
Hmm. When I asked which leader would fit best with this round's map script plans, at least one person thought Toku would be good. If you get Samurai you have machinery, which means (start building samurai) > compass > optics > (start scouting targets) > astronomy > (invade). Not as sure a thing as a march across Pangaea, but you still might be able to use them. Plus their Drill I persists when you upgrade them.

Those who want to know nothing about the map in advance should comment on whether it bothers them that we're talking about isolation out in the open (unspoilered). I did mention what I was planning in the bullpen thread.
Click to expand...

I was (and still am) looking forward to playing toku, but haven't got the chance. Will try to find time soon. I would rather not have known that we were isolated before playing the map, but I guess the toothpaste is out of the tube.
 
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