Rhino - Deity Asoka - No Tech Trades

My first Deity game. I expect to lose. But hopefully I'll put on a good show doing it.

Settings (same as most my games):

• Fractal, all defaults, marathon
• No barbs, huts or events
• No diplo victory
• No tech trades
• Aggressive AI

Expect a lot of wars.

Detailed settings:


I pick Asoka. If you followed my last thread, I was choosing between Org, Phil and Char to go with Spiritual (which I always take). Phil is great if you go for Great Wall, but not a huge deal otherwise -- you can work around it by growing cities for a while, then swapping to Pacifism for 10 turns and starving cities to run specialists, like you do in a golden age. And I didn't want to paper over holes in my play by picking Charismatic for the early happiness boost. So I went with Organized, which should let me tech faster to get whatever I need, based on the map.

The starting position:


Here's the save. (Note: You'll need MacBuffy mod to open it. Works on Mac and Windows).

nice.
Have to say I don't like SIP... but other positions are not much better too.

The decision imo will be somewhere between 1W and 1NW.
since no barbs BW is not priority...I could imagine going pottery after AH.

Subscribed!

Can't see anything worth burning a turn for, but I really hate settling on grass riverside hills, such a waste. (Edit: moving west looks to lose some floodplains in return for getting the grass hill back. Toughie - I think I'd SIP. Can't play along, no BUFFY.)

Looks like a nice capital anyway and is that coast all round the north? With any luck you can block off some land.

1 ne?

Two Quick Cities (Turns 1-126, Years 4000-2240 BC)

I'd played this last night, and hadn't realized the riverside grass hill was such a great tile, so I just settled in place. You can see another floodplains on the South side (the rightmost tile in the fog). So 1W loses 2 floodplains, 1NW loses 1, and 1NE loses 1 FP and a turn. SIP turned out well:


Not an amazing city, but nowhere I wish I'd moved after seeing all the land. (Well, South for the gold, but we had no way of knowing they were there). With all the FPs and the silk, I considered making this a commerce capital, but it won't have quite enough food. Four mine-able hills will make it a good production city.

What to tech? Normally, I like to develop my capital before grabbing a second city and incurring maintenance. But every game I play with gold in the capital goes well, so I want a second city to grab the gold ASAP, especially since there's floodplains. (Center tile plus a farmed FP supports both golds).

There's an article talking about the fastest way to get a second city. I recall it saying worker, chop worker #2, chop settler. And it had a bunch of math, which totally makes me believe it. So, I tech Bronze Working and build a worker.

Turn 10, I meet Isabella. Must be close. I'll have to adopt her religion. I also share the continent with Joao, Stalin, Napoleon, Mansa Munsa and Wang Kon.

Worker finishes on turn 30, and BW still has 17 turns. What to do? Mine the pigs! Makes a 5-value tile while I make the other worker and settler.


BW completes. Here's the surrounding land:


No copper anywhere. But holy cow, 4 gold in easy range. Here's the dotmap:


Next techs are Agriculture for the floodplains, then Animal Husbandry for the pigs, cow, and hopefully horses.

2920 BC: Settler finishes. Next is another worker, then another settler.


I grab the Eastern of the 2 early dots. It doesn't get gold yet, but it does get plenty of floodplains, so it will come online quickly. But the real reason is the river, which gives me an instant trade route, turning a +2 GPT profit right away.


A few more chops, and Gold-W is founded in 2545 BC, at breakeven GPT. I'm down to 2 forests in Delhi, but I think it was a good investment.


Notice how Gold-E needs a border pop for gold, and Gold-W needs a border pop for food, but together they get everything they need? That's why I had to do the second settler right away.

The 2 workers mine the gold. It's ready for Gold-E to work in 2460 BC.


Gold-E is unhealthy already, so it will stay this size for a bit and slow-build workers. Sucks that I don't have any granary health resources anywhere. Maybe I'll prioritize the Eastern wheat + marble city.

Next turn, AH completes. I'll go for Wheel, to hook up Gold-W, then Pottery, so I can whip Delhi.


Two horses near me. One is already in the planned Western dot (which is still terrible before the border pop).


2360: The second gold mine comes online. Now my economy is really going.


One worker mines the third gold, while the other pastures Delhi's pig. It's my only health resource so far.

The Northern part of the continent. Not much backfill, but decent enough with the seafood.


2350: Wheel completes. Next: Pottery. With 1 turn to make a gold surplus, it takes 10 total. That's blazing fast for marathon.


2320: Stonehenge built in a far away land. If such an early wonder is just built now, I probably have a shot at Great Wall.


2240: Pottery completes. Delhi and Gold-W start on granaries (Gold-E is halfway done with a worker).

I'm unsure if I want Masonry next to shoot for Great Wall, or just skip it and go straight for Writing, delaying espionage until Code of Laws. Thoughts? Do I really have a chance at Great Wall this late on Deity?


Shot of my empire. Masonry is just a placeholder.


I'm working 2 of the 3 gold. May swap Gold-W to work 2 floodplains until it grows to size 3.

Goals for next turnset:

• Get Delhi online. (The other cities will stay small, working the gold).
• Grab cities to seal off my backfill. I'll probably split that one dot into 2-3 that don't need a border pop.
• Libraries in the gold cities. Great Wall in Delhi?

By the way, does anyone know a mod that works for Mac that gives the UI and better AI improvements of Buffy, but doesn't require folks to download the mod to shadow the game?

Maybe post a WB save - would that work if it was output from BUFFY?

Nice job with the two gold cities! I'd be amazed if you got the great wall now though. Looks like archery - you can afford it

Would Stalin be the most likely to build TGW since he's most prone to heavy espionage?

the article about worker,worker,settler being the fastest opening was written when chops were 30hammers at all times. Probably isn't the fastest opening anymore.

How is philosophical outside of a great wall combo 'not a huge deal?'

Correct me if I'm wrong but on deity bulbing and tech trading is a surefire way to stay in the game, without tech trading would bulbing not be even more important to compete with the AI bonus?

ben-jammin said:

How is philosophical outside of a great wall combo 'not a huge deal?'

Correct me if I'm wrong but on deity bulbing and tech trading is a surefire way to stay in the game, without tech trading would bulbing not be even more important to compete with the AI bonus?

Click to expand...

I'm not saying Phil is bad or anything. But it's particularly good when you're getting a GSpy at 2GPP/turn. That's because you get him 75 turns earlier for a ton of extra EPs (assuming you settle him), and because you'll probably get a 2nd GSpy before your scientists start coming out, giving you a 50%-100% bump to EPs. Compare that with getting your first GS 25 turns earlier (probably zero impact, since I often save them for more expensive bulbs later), and getting 2-3 more of them by the time you're getting Liberalism. Again, not bad, but not the same sort of impact as with TGW.

Why marathon?

jihe said:

Why marathon?

Click to expand...

It's the speed I normally play. I like the more relaxed pace, and how everything is slower relative to military actions (invasions and such).

Keilah said:

the article about worker,worker,settler being the fastest opening was written when chops were 30hammers at all times. Probably isn't the fastest opening anymore.

Click to expand...

Depends on the starting area too of course. Some all-forest starts I would argue very strongly for 3 workers before settler. Many just 1, or even 0 if really fishy.

Did you end up going worker -> settler -> worker?

Or did I misintrepet your writings, and you did worker -> worker -> settler?

Personally, I am a big fan of workers, working unimproved tiles makes my soul cry.


*edit* nvm, I saw two workers in the settler screenshot.
I can see clearly that there is a lack of barbarians in your game, I would probably not be able to build a worker after the settler, must get defense up!
Do you have something to say about your preferense to play w/o barbarians?

Most likely because marathon + barbs is a huge p.i.t.a.

OT: I'd have placed Gold-E -> 1W and Gold-W -> 1W. Gold-W could stagnate while working a gold mine and build some units, later on grow a bit on 2 grassland farms + cow, and Gold-E had some really decent production tiles. Especially the way you settled them, that'd have made alot more sense to me.
You don't need to farm your cap up further (eventually you'll swap that floodplain from your new cities back to your cap, so that's 3 farmed FPs which is more than you actually need), it has enough food to grow. Rather get some mines/roads going, and cottage the city.

ahcos said:

Most likely because marathon + barbs is a huge p.i.t.a.

Click to expand...

Yup.

I went worker, worker, settler, worker, settler. 2nd and 3rd cities went warrior first.

Peaceful Expansion (Turns 126-177, Years 2240-1730 BC)

Somehow, this game is unlike most I play, and the next move isn't obvious. I need to write a plan.

I have tons of commerce. What I lack are resources, particularly for health. (Happiness I can work around with Monarchy).

Commerce supports expansion, which should fix resource problems. Organized also favors expansion.

My other problem is no copper. I don't know where the iron is, but with only 2 strategic resources nearby, I'm sure to have some around somewhere. Even before getting IW, I can just grab some land and assume iron is somewhere in there.

So, I'll plan to expand hard (mostly from Delhi). This means I'll need Code of Laws soon (also goes well with Organized), and Iron Working to bust all that jungle to the South. Everyone is far away, so roads will take a long time to make trade routes. That means Sailing and a coastal city somewhere. And I'll need Iron Working for all the jungle to the South.

So, here's the plan:

• Writing (libraries in the gold cities)
• Sailing (trade routes), settle along the West coast
• Iron Working (military plus jungle cities)
• Code of Laws (via Priesthood, probably)

If I don't have a religion by the time I'm ready for CoL, I'll also grab Monarchy. And if I get lucky and found Confucianism, I can swap to it for expensive spy missions.

Now to execute it.

First thing I research if Meditation --> Priesthood. Why? Well, I'll need them for CoL, they'll give me a further 20% boost on Writing, and I'm building granaries right now, so I don't need libraries yet anyway.


I also juggle the Western cities around some, to get 2 good cities that don't require border pops. The one by the gold and cow will work the grass tiles, since my capital has all those floodplains for food.


Once I get a 2nd farm for Gold-W to work, I grow it to size 3. Comes in as I'm halfway done with Priesthood. Now I'm working all 3 golds.


A few turns later, Wang Kon will trade corn!


I'm seriously health-starved, with more floodplains than resources. My neighbors, Izzy and Joao, are Buddhists. The rest of the world, including WK, is Hindu. But he's not on anyone's worst enemy list. So I road another gold and take the corn. Now Gold-E can finally grow.

Joao got writing, and I'd opened borders with him. Here's his lands to the SE:



I notice that the Oracle is still available. I consider grabbing it:


But with all that gold, I don't need more techs. What I desperately need are cities. So Oracle will have to wait. Delhi starts a settler.

By the way, that's the reason I farmed Delhi instead of going for cottages and mines: It's making settlers. If you slow-build them, an FP farm = a mined hill. If you whip them, FP farm > hill. I figure 3 golds plus Organized can carry my economy for now.

1930: Joao completes the Great Wall. So I would have had 32 turns to do it -- 10 to research, 22 to build. With only 2 chops left, it would have taken 3-4 whips (you can overflow about 100 hammers by putting 1 turn into a worker, then 2-pop whipping it). So I could maybe have gotten it, but only by trashing Delhi for 90+ turns, which is a bad trade.

You can also see my research dates:


I open borders with Izzy, but no one else. With both neighbors Buddhist, that's the religion I want.

Wang Kon and Napoleon have been in "preparing for war" mode for a few turns, but neither of my neighbors are in a fighting mood, so I'm not too worried about defenses yet.

Next on the plan: Fishing --> Sailing, for trade routes. I'm not sure if this is necessary, but I'll need Fishing soon anyway, so it's not a huge investment to see about opening trade.


1900: Napoleon declares on Joao. Here's the map:


Joao doesn't quite block Nap off from me, and with only warriors, even a random exploring axe could conquer me, so I don't declare. But I'll probably join if Joao asks me to.

1850: Izzy sends a missionary. I swap right away. Should have waited until she asked to get the diplo +1.


With the extra happiness, I whip the settler, founding Cow in 1820 BC:


It gets a bunch of grass farms, a gold, and shares a cow. Costs 2 GPT from the start. Not bad.

Delhi grows while building a barracks, then slow-builds another settler. I have 4 workers at this point. Once I get another 1-2 cities, I'll need a couple more workers, but they make great whip fodder, so I'll hold off on that until I either need them or I'm working on Oracle.

1780: I discover Sailing. Delhi has a river that goes to the ocean, which I think counts for trade. It only gets me 1 route, with Izzy, which might even be from a river. Oh well, I'll need it eventually.


Next on the plan is Code of Laws, which takes 30 turns at 100% research. I'll just build up gold for now.

1730: Joao wants me to join the war.


I have no military, no resources, and no techs, but Joao is between me and Napoleon. (Not 100% blocking, but definitely the first target). They're different religions, so they probably won't like each other any time soon (meaning hopefully no open borders). And I have a cracking research rate and enough gold for 15 turns at 100%, which should be enough to get Archery and Iron Working. Also, remember, with the extra turns on marathon, the AIs will ask you to join wars a lot more, so it's probably a -2 or -3 to stay out of it.

What do you think? Should I join and declare on Napoleon, or shun my Buddhist brother and take the diplo hit?

If you accept, there will be a wandering French chariot in your backyard. Let them fight it out.

Not too sure you really need a settler "Pump" like that all farmed up Dehli. I mean, there are only few really good spots left on this map open for competition, that'd be Wheat/Marble and maybe Fish/Horse, although i'm not too sure that this one will be contested soon. Apart from that, it's some space to backfill, and you'd be fine to slow-build settlers and rather start growing cottages soon enough. I barely have experience on Marathon, but from what i know research/commerce is one of the biggest bottlenecks on this speed. So yeah, a city with alot of food which can be whipped like crazy is nice, but there should be a reason to have one. Don't see this reason here tbh.

And as Wheat is contested for sure, i'd have taken that spot next instead of cow/gold (which is an OK city, but doesn't have to be settled right away imo). Wheat alone should be worth the spot that early, but with marble it begins to shine as it allows you to go for the GLib - hardly any spot you can call a GP Farm, so that'd really pay off.

If there's one building i'd have avoided for a long time, it's a granary in Gold-W. Won't grow, won't be whipped, wasted hammers atm. Same for Baracks in Dehli, it's perfectly fine to just build some units without baracks for scouting or cityguard purposes while growing.

Last but not least, clam/rice 1S, saves a forrest and gives the city at least some production. It's not a spot that is crucial for your earlygame, so it's fine to plan it out for more mid/lategame usefulness.

Regarding Diplo, i'd have waited until Isa asks you to convert for sure. She has people she hates more and therefore won't declare that easily, and Joao is occupied somewhere else. If she didn't ask, i wouldn't convert to any Religion AT ALL, at least not out of GAs for Pacifism. Apart from MM, you have some really strict folks on this map, it'll be hard to keep techs going as you please when you piss them off, and Isa/Joao have a rather low WFYBTA threshold iirc, so unless you get them to friendly you'll need the other leaders for trades. On a sidenote, both Isa and Joao are rather bad techers, so unless you have to pick sides i'd avoid that.

I could sort of understand you if you a) had serious happiness problems, b) would already border any of those two or if c) another warmonger would be Buddist, but in this case... don't know if it's too clever to pick sides that early.

Edit:

And about that war, let them fight it out. Don't get dragged in that trouble, you'll get serious diplo hits for declaring on Nappy with at least Stalin, maybe some other folks aswell. Joao won't drop below Cautious, and with HR he'll love you, and atm he's fighting Nappy. Another reason to tech as fast as humanly possible: there are alot of folks you can bribe in on each other, Nappy, MM, Stalin, maybe even WK... good stuff.