OCC whipping

Colonel Mustard · Nov 7, 2011

I play OCC exclusively and would really like opinions on the pros and cons of slavery.

I whip a granary and library but not much else as I'm only whipping away specialists. I consider it to be counter-productive - no great people points and no research benefits if I've got the Pyramids (which I've normally gone all out for.) I don't build cottages.

Depending on how close my neighbours are and/or which civs are on the map I sometimes whip out a few early units.

Is this optimal play?

--------
EDIT: I recently moved up to Monarch.

Coffee Mug · Nov 7, 2011

If you're not spiritual, I imagine the anarchy cost of switching into and out of slavery, and possibly of dealing with a slave revolt in your only city, would outweigh the benefit of whipping once or twice.

Ungeziefer · Nov 7, 2011

I also play quite a lot of OCCs and I hardly ever whipped
The main reasons why are that most of the time your city will have pretty decent production and the unhappiness is just annoying b/c it often prevents you from running 1 more specialist (+ I prefer to avoid slavery b/c of the revolt event and no use wasting a turn of anarchy if you aren't SPI)
If I really need production I'll chop forests outsidr the BFC

Ataxerxes · Nov 7, 2011

Ungeziefer said:
I also play quite a lot of OCCs and I hardly ever whipped
The main reasons why are that most of the time your city will have pretty decent production and the unhappiness is just annoying b/c it often prevents you from running 1 more specialist (+ I prefer to avoid slavery b/c of the revolt event and no use wasting a turn of anarchy if you aren't SPI)
If I really need production I'll chop forests outsidr the BFC

Same here. I seldom whip past the very early game. You're almost always bumping up against the happy cap until you get Globe built. Very early game it can be valuable in a high food start to whip a Granary and Library. If I have enough food I might even chop a BFC hill tile.

Colonel Mustard · Nov 8, 2011

It's good to know I'm not missing out.

Ataxerxes said:
<snip> If I have enough food I might even chop a BFC hill tile.

Do you not normally chop your BFC hills? Mine (grassland ones especially) are normally one of my first chops, primarily for production (and hammers towards the Great Wall), secondly to give the RNG more turns to pop a resource. Although I must admit to re-rolling if I don't get a forested start.

Coffee Mug · Nov 8, 2011

Colonel Mustard said:
Do you not normally chop your BFC hills?

It depends on the map, but if it's possible to save them I will. Each forest unchopped is a specialist when the national park comes online.

Ataxerxes · Nov 8, 2011

Colonel Mustard said:
It's good to know I'm not missing out.

Do you not normally chop your BFC hills? Mine (grassland ones especially) are normally one of my first chops, primarily for production (and hammers towards the Great Wall), secondly to give the RNG more turns to pop a resource. Although I must admit to re-rolling if I don't get a forested start.

My reasoning is the same as Coffee Mug. In OCC I usually go for Environmentalism early (don't use it much outside OCC but always in OCC) so those Forests can get really valuable. It depends on the early value of 20-30 hammers plus a mine to work versus a later specialist plus the output from a hill forest preserve under Environmentalism.

It's close because the hill, if no resource turns up, still gets a Windmill after Environmentalism. So it's actually half a specialist which is still valuable. For me, it depends upon how many other tiles I can use while gunning for Biology. If I only have a few forests, I don't chop in the BFC at all. If you start with, say 14 forests, you might as well do a little chopping in the BFC. Also, you can always chop outside the BFC - fewer hammers but they're useless tiles.

vanatteveldt · Nov 8, 2011

I think in OCC there are two routes. One is to maximize the # of forests and go for NP. Second is to chop most forests and use farms/mines/workshops/watermills/windmills. You can avoid NP for the 50% coal ironworks bonus, and instead use environmentalism and accept some pollution until recycling. Which strategy works best really depends on the # of trees in the opening.

Colonel Mustard · Nov 9, 2011

I've never built a windmill. I try to maximise the forests for the NP, if possible I leave between six and ten. I don't worry about losing the 50% Ironworks coal bonus due to not getting coal in over 50% of my games.

(Oil doesn't show up in 95% of my games either so I have to beeline Plastics and keep a Scientist hanging around for Standard Ethanol :gripe:

)

Ungeziefer · Nov 9, 2011

In my games I always chop forested hills to get the Pyramids, NE and Oxford in a reasonable time (I engineer-rush the Great Library with the GE from Pyra) with the chop-hammers and the mines. These are also useful for spaceship building (I also often run the max number of engineer specialists when I am building/researching my spaceship to sync production and research) + more chance for a resource to pop up during the game if you build them early
If I get a low-forested start I'll just farm everything and leave the forests (maybe sub-optimal but it's the easiest way to go

)
Playing with balanced resources most of the time gives you alu + coal/oil (why do you need oil for anyway :crazyeye:

?)

vanatteveldt · Nov 9, 2011

balanced resources might be a good idea to make high level occ a bit easier, didn't think of that.

Windmills under enviromentalism are actually not so bad, compared to mines it is something like +1F-2H+4C. Assuming 1F~3C, it is -2H+7C, which is a pretty good deal in the tech race parts of the game.

The 50% is important if you are building SS parts or mass building ICBM's, the rest is generally quick enough anyway.

Ungeziefer · Nov 9, 2011

Also don't forget that Ironworks lets you run 2 more Engineer specialists (handy if you are low on production)

Ataxerxes · Nov 9, 2011

vanatteveldt said:
balanced resources might be a good idea to make high level occ a bit easier, didn't think of that.

Windmills under enviromentalism are actually not so bad, compared to mines it is something like +1F-2H+4C. Assuming 1F~3C, it is -2H+7C, which is a pretty good deal in the tech race parts of the game.

The 50% is important if you are building SS parts or mass building ICBM's, the rest is generally quick enough anyway.

I build windmills everywhere that doesn't have a strategic resource. Since I run Caste System with Environmentalism, I lose some production, but I gain about 4 gold + 1/2 a Specialist (NP and Globe means no limit on city growth). I admit to choosing balanced resources.

I like Ironworks. You get the engineer specialists as was noted and get production bonuses for Iron if you have it. Oil is very valuable, however. Sometimes you have to build a few advanced troops in case some AI gets frisky. Oftentimes the war declaration costs you the game, but sometimes not. Also, Oil can replace gold for building Railroads.

Ungeziefer · Nov 10, 2011

Ataxerxes said:
I build windmills everywhere that doesn't have a strategic resource. Since I run Caste System with Environmentalism, I lose some production, but I gain about 4 gold + 1/2 a Specialist (NP and Globe means no limit on city growth).

Are you able to build parts quickly enough? For example how long does it typically take you to build an engine? Your solution might be better than mining everywhere thanks to faster teching, then pre-building mines everywhere to get ready for SS building could be good...

Colonel Mustard · Nov 10, 2011

Ungeziefer said:
Are you able to build parts quickly enough? For example how long does it typically take you to build an engine? Your solution might be better than mining everywhere thanks to faster teching, then pre-building mines everywhere to get ready for SS building could be good...

Without altering my original BFC set-up and I've got Aluminium then I can push out an engine in 5 turns and the others parts in 3. I normally only build one engine, it takes longer to build the other than you save in travel time. I pre-workshop forests ready for the final push.

Ungeziefer · Nov 10, 2011

Colonel Mustard said:
Without altering my original BFC set-up and I've got Aluminium then I can push out an engine in 5 turns and the others parts in 3. I normally only build one engine, it takes longer to build the other than you save in travel time. I pre-workshop forests ready for the final push.

Same for the single engine here, so you go all-out on research first then transition to production?

Colonel Mustard · Nov 10, 2011

^I beeline The Internet which I normally get as the AI doesn't seem to prioritise computers; this normally backfills the Rocketry line. Meanwhile I self tech Superconductors for the Lab, set research to Fusion and on to production. If necessary I'll feed techs to a third civ to get techs from the Internet. Most times I'll pick up Ecology and Genetics.

Ataxerxes · Nov 10, 2011

Ungeziefer said:
Same for the single engine here, so you go all-out on research first then transition to production?

It's strange, but single Engine does get the victory faster.

@Unge - I think you'll find that, especially with the one Engine, research is still the bottleneck generally. I normally leave Genetics for last because that part is easier to build. Even with one you want to get the Engine build before the very end because it's expensive.

Ungeziefer · Nov 10, 2011

Ataxerxes said:
It's strange, but single Engine does get the victory faster.

@Unge - I think you'll find that, especially with the one Engine, research is still the bottleneck generally. I normally leave Genetics for last because that part is easier to build. Even with one you want to get the Engine build before the very end because it's expensive.

Research is not always the bottleneck for me, as during my end-game I'll be building the parts while teching to save time and thus try to sync production and beakers. Getting an optimal research rate and production rate while syncing them is the most difficult part for me.

To keep up with my research rate, I run max engineers and work all the tiles in my BFC without replacing the forest preserves. Since engineers provide half the raw beakers of a scientist under rep, I'm still getting a good deal of research, and the production sometimes allows to squeeze in an extra thruster, which I prefer over building research.

I build the engine while researching Genetics (both usually finish at the same time with some MM) and then build the cockpit or whatever it is while I tech Ecology (and chop all my forests in one turn to get the Ecology part in 1 turn :goodjob:

)

vicawoo · Nov 11, 2011

I think people tend to overwhip libraries. If you don't have the pop (or happiness) to run specialists and your good tiles, then why not just wait for a smaller whip?

Whipping wonders is sometimes necessary.

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