C3C - SID - Rise of Carthage - as guided by Spoonwood

After first only playing for conquest and domination victories, I have started taking an unusual liking to one special victory condition, the 20k. This is the VC I've struggled the most to win, still it is a VC doable for most people on Demigod and sometimes even Deity. It takes planning and patience, but if you play your cards right, you can sit back and watch the wonders come in as your neighbours struggle to keep up in tech and are busy fighting eachother.

I've read a lot of Spoonwood posts on 20k and I was very happy when he agreed to help me, and maybe you, reach the next level of this VC.

The settings will be:

World: Archipalego, 80% water, Standard.
Climate: Wet, warm, 3 millions.
Barbarians wanted: No.
Opponents: Japan, the Zulus the Mongols and the Aztecs.
Difficulty level: SID.

Our goal is to build a cultural empire that will stand the test of time.

I guess it's good if you've won at least demigod or emperor to play this. I've won 20k myself 3 times on deity and two on demigod.

Hopefully, Spoonwood will be playing and giving advice on suicide galleys, how to pre-build, reconnect-disconnect, short wars for the HE, trading and all there is to learn.

I plan to start MapFinder on Sunday and will come up with some maps to cycle through.

Anyone up for a challenge?

Our start:



Roster:
Spoonwood
creamcheese
AnthonyIII
Elephantium

Lurking:
Aabraxan
Sparthage
del62
Railuven

I'll give it a go.

Was the civ random or what? I'd think someone else would be better for 20k. At Sid it is nice to choose a good civ.

I also suggest swapping Aztecs (agricultural) and Japan (religious) for like the Hittites or someone. This way you get no half price culture buildings for the AI, and no quick(er) expansion. We may need all the help we can get.

Great, creamcheese! Looking forward to it! Spoonwood suggested Carthage here:

Post 114 in this thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11125089#post11125089

I think, because it's Sid, he wants to play Carthage since they're industrial, maybe? Correct me if I'm wrong Spoonwood. I've generally played as The Byzantines, for the scientific trait. But I don't mind Carthage at all, if they win it for us. Because we play archipalego, I think the agricultural trait doesn't matter that much, at least on deity they never become any trouble. However, if they start on an island very near, or on the same landmass, we have to find another map. Even at least agressive, Monty is always coming for me... Hmm. Japan I think is selected because they research slightly different then the rest at the early stage, and therefore makes for better dealing with other AI's. Again, I could be wrong and I'm sure Spoonwood is open for suggestions. You do make a good point.
When I've played 20k at deity I've had the Mongols, the Zulus, the Aztecs and the Germans or the Japanese.

To me it's either Carthage, Spain or the Byzantines. Early curraghs are vital in my opinion! Have you other suggestions, creamcheese? Who do you use to play as for 20k?

I'm dreaming of a lone island, with a river, a cow, some ivory and a lux. And hills!

EDIT: I must also say that this is my first SG ever, so please fill me in as we go if I screw up on how to organize my posts or if I should add some information.

The reasons for Carthage run as follows:

1. You have an 80% archipelago map, so Seafaring helps with getting contacts, and your boats not sinking. This isn't necessarily such a big deal with the right map. However, in a research-oriented game, the extra commerce from Seafaring can help. Basically we'll want to do a min, 50-turn run on Writing, followed by max run on Philosophy. You probably won't like seeing how many turns it'll take us to research Philosophy and other techs even with the Seafaring trait, but it'll work out better than with someone else in the early game (later on Commercial might help more than Seafaring).

2. Carthage starts with the right techs. We basically need, or at least really want, to start with Alphabet if we want to get to Philosophy first. Also, we might nab the Pyramids or Oracle early since we start with the industrious trait. This isn't guaranteed by any means, and when I don't get the Pyramids or Oracle in this sort of game, I just start another one.

As I said in another thread "We might want to move the 1st settler a bit (and might not also), but basically my strategy has come as to plant the capital and immediately have it spit out a settler. The cultural expansion of the capital gives us some clues as to where to plant the next settler, and some scouting with the initial worker after irrigating the grassland cow roading it (even if we use the disconnect-reconnect, we can't use it on this type of a map until we have Map Making and a harbor connected to our capital up), and maybe developing a square or two more. The 2nd city immediately gets started on the Pyramids (possible pre-build for the Oracle, though this comes as tricky) upon its founding, and I've made sure that it gets an irrigated grassland cow straight away, often tile swapping from the capital. There doesn't seem to exist enough time to do full scouting if you want the Pyramids or Oracle (I could be wrong here), so I've basically often founded the 20k site half-blind."

If we didn't have industrious, we would need to research Masonry ourselves if going for the Pyramids or Oracle. I've done this, and still gotten to Philosophy first on some small Sid maps, but it ends up a very close call, and I haven't done it (or tried it really) on a standard or larger sized map. You really don't have enough shields to pre-build the Pyramids with a granary, in my opinion, except on a small map. So, we need the industrious trait for the Pyramids or Oracle. It also comes in handy immediately after that to pre-build the Museum of Mausollos. The speed of the workers also comes as very nice.

With respect to agricultural Sid tribes, remember... Sid tribes only need 8 food without a granary to grow from size 1-6, and 16 food to grow from size 7-12. Though agricultural does provide some help to the AIs no doubt, because of overrun, I think it comes as less powerful for the AIs than on lower levels. We do NOT want anyone like the Hittites, since they start with Alphabet. We also don't want anyone scientific, because of the free techs. Even with very weak research opponents, the AIs can easily research a little too much in comparison to your tribe on this level... see here.

This makes sense. I know that when I've played as the Byzantines, I've started off with the Collosus, then crossed my fingers for trading away writing the turn the Collosus is finished. I've then been able to build either The Oracle or the Pyramids. That was Deity, though... And also depends on wether your suicide galleys has found the other tribes by ca 2200BC.

What wonder triggers the Carthaginian GA? We should maybe try not to get a GA in Despotism, but maybe in the MA to help get the MA wonders. This is the period I lose the most wonders in Deity, because of all the cascades from Sun Tzu's, Leo's, Sistine etc. However, when we we're able to use the palace pre-build, this should perhaps work out better this time...

What do we want from the second city? The ideal would be that MapFinder found us a settler-pump-like start and then nearby a site with a river, a cow or two and some hills. I know you've said river and cow before Spoonwood, but is that good enough for Sid?

EDIT: Also, how big an island do we want? I'm often comfortable with getting 12-14 cities on standard map island - that way the island will be filled up before any AI will get a city or two on my landmass. I don't like it if we get a huge island and the AI settle 3-4 cities there before I'm finished expanding, as this often means earlier wars.

Well my first instinct would have been for the Byzantines, simply because the awesome UU keeps us very safe on an archipelago map, seafaring is must and gets us alphabet.

I see now why you chose Carthage Spoonwood, having prebuilds must be critical. Is there a reason you make a city that is not your capital your 20k city? I would think spitting out a settler and then turning the capital into the 20k city would be faster (less corruption, although not much). You can use the second city for MPs and scouts and to pop out settlers, then the capital builds almost nothing but wonders from the initial settler onward.

As to a map, I think a cow and river would be nice, two bonus food might be better since we are not agri. Other than that, some hills for shields, and maybe iron, furs, w/e for shields.

AnthonyIII: You might want to post the roster in the first post, and a picture of the start when you roll it up. So, so far it is me, you, and spoonwood.

lurker's comment: Good luck!

lurker's comment: Signing up for lurkage.

Good luck!

lurker's comment: Is your plan that if you share your Island with another civ you restart

creamcheese said:

Is there a reason you make a city that is not your capital your 20k city?

Click to expand...

For pre-building.

del62 said:

Is your plan that if you share your Island with another civ you restart

Click to expand...

Yes.

AnthonyIII:

Mapfinder won't tell us enough about the island or the nearby territory. We basically just have to play out a map with a river and a cow start and hope we find a decent spot for the second city. Sometimes, in my games, this has meant the second city steals the cow of the capital and the capital doesn't have any food bonuses. Hopefully we find something with a good amount of food and shields for both cities.

I've started thinking about this more, and I think the disconnect-reconnect can prove useful, but we can't use it until Map Making anyways, and even then we'd have to have the right conditions to use it before Astronomy or Map Making. So, we'll definitely want to build roads "as normal"... that is as a general rule if a worker moves to a square to irrigate, mine, or chop or a forest, it finishes a road also before it moves on.

The GA often gets very tricky. Pyramids+MoM triggers a GA for Carthage. If we can trade for Mysticism, and don't have an SGL for the Pyramids, we might manage a Republic (or possibly Monarchy) GA via the Hanging Gardens along with MoM if I remember correctly. Numidian Mercenaries might also do this. We might have an opportunity to trade away for Code of Laws (the Mongols seem to research it) or Polytheism (Japan might research it) the turn we learn Philosophy using "what's the big Picture" and get Monarchy/Republic as our free tech (we just do NOT change our palace pre-build to the MoM until 1 turn before the revolution completes). We might not also. A despotic GA isn't ideal, but, in my opinion it's better than missing the Museum of Mausollos and possible other wonders. I think in this game, I had a despotic GA and didn't pick up all that much from it, but still won handily enough.

When you run MapFinder, make sure you have SGLs on, the standard victory conditions enabled, cultural flips on (HoF settings basically), AND you have the AIs at "least aggressive".

We'll play by the HoF rulebook, and before making any trades where we trade away our techs, let's discuss it.

Thanks creamcheese, first post updated! I hope to post 4-5 starts so we can discuss which one to go for. Good to see you del62, Aabraxan and Sparthage! I started playing for 20k after I read your story about the Ottomans, Aabraxan. Sure any of you don't want to join? We (I) could use your expertise! Spoonwood and creamcheese, how many people do we need for this? Is 5-6 normal? Will remember all those settings on MapFinder Spoonwood and otherwise agree on what you and creamcheese has said so far. So, I set MapFinder on a river and a cow then, that's it? Or should I go two cows? This is gonna be good fun.

3 is fine. When you first approached me, I thought it would just be us two AnthonyIII. That's what Pacioli and I did. Just a river and a cow. Two cows doesn't necessarily translate into a better site for the 20k site. Remember... least aggressive.

Edit: I've found I have a bunch of saves for this lying around actually. But, I don't know if I've played any of them before.

AnthonyIII said:

We need more people!

Click to expand...

Fresh out of those; how about an Elephant?

My bad Spoonwood. I misunderstood you, I'm sorry. 3 it is then! Elephantium, sorry for misleading you, but it seems like this roster is full. Hope it's OK! Spoonwood, it's nice that you have some saves lying around, could you fire some up and see if you remember them? If not, we could easily go for one of yours. Just let me know by sunday as I will start to run MapFinder that day. Would yopu prefer something else over an extra cow, by the way? Is more hills better than the extra cow? For the record, I'm ready to start anytime, but I suggest you take the first turns and get things going.

Hmmph.

No, you're welcome to play as far as I'm concerned Elephantium. The grassland cow works best, imo.

Alright! Elephantium, you're added to the roster! I'm just playing the opening stages on a Sid, arch-map to get a feel of things... And the Pyramids and the Oracle both finished before 2100BC! This will be tough.

I know traditionally, after the 1st set, players play for 10 turns each, but Pacioli and myself played for 5 turns in the other game. Do we want 5 turns each, or 10 after this?

Here's the start:

1-4000 BC Move worker to cow on river. Plant 001 in place and it starts on a settler. Umm... Not quite sure about the 20k spot yet. It's either at the 8-8 spot, or the 9-9 spot. I think the 8-8 spot might work better, but let's wait for the cultural expansion. Research to 10% for Writing in 50 turns.

2-3950 BC Irrigate cow.

3-3900 BC zzzz...

4-3850 BC zzzz...

5-3800 BC road cow.

6-3750 BC zzz...

7-3700 BC Luxes up 10% as 001 grows. Make sure to check both the capital and the 20k site in these early turns every turn for happiness. I hit "9" with the worker. This, of course, comes as different from developing the other cow, as one would do in a more "regular" game. But, we want to found 002 ASAP, and find a good location and develop it quickly.

8-3650 BC The worker roads.

9-3600 BC zzz...

10-3550 BC Now here's a tricky part. Do I move the worker to the "9" spot from it's current position to develop a cow that 002 will have, or do I move it the "8" spot to scout? The 8-8 spot, at worst, has 2 grassland cows, 3 hills, a mountain and 2 bonus grassland. The 9-9 spot has 8 hills, 3 grassland cows, a mountain, and a bonus grassland. I decide to move the worker to the cow, as the cultural expansion will tell us a little more next turn.

11-3500 BC The cultural expansion reveals 2 more bonus grasslands: Those bonus grasslands would make things easier earlier, but the multiple hill site I find just too tempting to pass up. 001 uses all three cows this turn, and the worker mines.

12-3450 BC 001 settler-curragh, and luxes drop to 0%. The settler moves to the hill spot.

12-3400 BC I found 002, start it on the Pyramids, and give it the irrigated cow. 001 gets the cow which I have the worker mining. Excellent, 002 has another bonus grassland available. We'll want to prioritize getting out another settler to grab this before 002 has any culture completed really.

13-3350 BC zzz..

14-3300 BC The mine completes, and the worker roads. I check some MMing, but it wouldn't have helped us, so I just leave tiles as they are.

15-3250 BC zzz...

16-3200 BC 001 hits size 2, so luxes go up to 10%. 002 will grow next turn, and it has no forests around. So, 001 goes OFF the mined cow to a bonus grassland (the unworked cow comes as the other tile). The worker goes to BG that 002 can use.

17-3150 BC The curragh completes, and 001 gets started on a second worker. The worker mines.

18-3100 BC zzz...

19-3050 BC The curragh spots what looks like another island. I look at 001 and see the worker has 4 shields left. The food in the box matches nicely with 3 food every turn after this, and 2 food on this turn, so 001 swaps from the BG to the forest, and luxes go up to 20%.

20-3000 BC 001 worker-settler. The new worker moves to the undeveloped cow to mine it. After it mines and roads that spot, this worker should move to the irrigated cow and mine it... co-ordinating the completion of the mine with 5 food for 002... that is 002 gets all three cows. This should, I think, time nicely enough though that 001 can spit out another settler without wasting shields. If it does seem like 001 would waste shields... we might want to put out a curragh or warrior from 001 first, and then a settler. The 3rd city should go so that it grabs the cow at the 6-6 spot from 002, so that 002 has access to the other bonus grassland, and such that it's NOT on a hill, but rather one square beyond the hill. Accordingly with developing the other BG as quickly as possible, the worker now mining should finish it's mine, road, and then road up the hill at the "8" spot from 002. Also, in 4 turns, we want 001 off of the grassland cow, so that 002 can use upon growing to size 4. This suggests we might want to go warrior-settler in 001, though I'm not sure at this point. And the warrior we would use for MP in 002. And make sure to keep on checking the luxury slider so no one revolts!

Lurkers: Can one of you download the 3000 save there, then click "ctrl+Q" to "retire" and confirm that we don't have anyone else on our home island? Please don't tell us anything else about this map.

AnthonyIII said:

I'm just playing the opening stages on a Sid, arch-map to get a feel of things... And the Pyramids and the Oracle both finished before 2100BC!

Click to expand...

Yea... it's basically a crap-shoot at the start.

Spoonwood said:

No, you're welcome to play as far as I'm concerned Elephantium. The grassland cow works best, imo.

Click to expand...

AnthonyIII said:

Alright! Elephantium, you're added to the roster! I'm just playing the opening stages on a Sid, arch-map to get a feel of things... And the Pyramids and the Oracle both finished before 2100BC! This will be tough.

Click to expand...

Also: That's a very nice start.