Praets At Deity at Normal Speed

MarigoldRan

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They're one of the ultimate zerg rush units, and they're probably the only unit that can easily take out an established Ragnar or Monty in the medieval ages pre-Engineering.

Take your large stack and place it on a forest next to their main army. Then laugh as they suicide their units attacking your forested praets. The AI never gets enough catapults, and praets are one of the best units at soaking siege damage.

However, at Standard Deity there are certain sacrifices with using them:

1. You can forget about getting liberalism.
2. You will fall badly behind in tech.
3. Feudalism, not Civil Service, becomes your tech of choice, for vassaling targets and the +2 experience bonus.
4. Unlike Marathon/Huge, you cannot pick your targets as easily. If you're on a Peninsula and Ragnar is your only close neighbor, then Ragnar it will be.

5. It's pretty difficult to 2-pop rush a praet at normal speeds. There will be happiness issues.

6. Your tech target of choice becomes steel for cannons. If you can get them before the AI gets rifling, you win. This is one of your options. The other is espionage.

7. In the late-medieval era you need a covering unit. Like an elephant. A couple of elephants with a massive stack of praets and catas make a pretty killer combo.

8. Once your targets get castles, switch to an espionage economy. Use spies and city revolts. Thankfully as the Romans, this is not too hard to do as you're Org. Actually, once you get CoL and Construction, one options is to switch to espionage completely. Research? What's that? Who needs it? You've got praets, catapults, and spies! Even castles will fall before your devilish might.

9. The AP becomes a pain in the butt. It might not be a good idea to spread religion to all your cities if you think that will become the AP religion. The reason is because the world WILL consider you a villain. Which kind of makes sense, if you think about it.

The game basically boils down to if you can vassal a tech-er like Hannibal or Mansa Musa before they run away.

Praets also work better if you START next to Hannibal or Mansa Musa.

However, even at Standard speeds, they're one of the best medieval fighting units in the game. The praets are game-changing in the sense that they allow you to wage medieval war in situations where you otherwise cannot wage medieval war. In this sense they're like Cho-Ko-Nus, but more cost-effective.

EDIT: In terms of playstyle, praets are most similar to Cataphracts. Except your starting techs are better, and ORG is better than SPI, and you can start the wars much, much earlier.

The way to leverage them is all-out, non-stop war and war planning for the next 1000 or so years. Since it takes the AI such a long time to get rifling, you've got a nice window there.
 
The style of play and tech choices becomes very different.

It basically boils down to war, war, and more war. It's kind of like leveraging Tokugawa, except you can begin earlier and you have a very strong econ trait to help.

At Marathon/Huge of course praets are probably the best UU in the game, bar one: and that's the Quechua.
 
They are 1 move units, which is bad on normal speed.
Also you need IW which is hurtful to self-tech usually. If you don't have major war success, it's pretty much game over.
 
Marigold, I would love to see a run at a heavy Praet deity playthrough to showcase their strength as you say. I don't mean this in a snarky "I don't think you can do this" way--I actually would like to see you and others show this strategy off in a reasonable, fair setup so that we could really see the efficacy of the first post based on some actual deity (or lower) game results
 
^ Yes I opened this thread looking forward to a walkthrough too!

Praetorians are talked about a lot but people's experiences with them seem to vary widely. I don't think I can remember seeing a posted game showing how to leverage them properly.

The OP's points do sound reasonable, so let's see them in action.....
 
Praetorians are talked about a lot but people's experiences with them seem to vary widely. I don't think I can remember seeing a posted game showing how to leverage them properly.

Cos they are a free ride up to Immortal, like many things, and a bad strat on Deity/normal ;)
On Deity the AI will fortify it's cities while you move around your slow Praets, you can take some cities probably no doubt about it. But you can do that with HAs too, doesn't mean the game looks good afterwards. The AIs will always keep up in cities with you, and your economy will be a mess.
 
I <3 the bold assertion followed with no demonstration or evidence. Typical.
 
I never tried it (too cheesy). If you beeline them on deity, get some early commerce, and find iron they're probably devastating though. Seems to me that extra strength, CR, lower cost, no need for stables and earlier rush date compared to HA's should more than make up for their slow movement but this needs to be tested.
 
This strategy has more potential than most of you seem to assume. On my first Immortal game with Rome I did 'lose' (horribly behind in tech) but not before taking out two AIs and halving the land of another one.
Most of the posters here are Deity players. So why would it be impossible for you? It's a unit which has some strong counters (such as the maceman) but will do good overall (as the AI will not have the intelligence to build lots of maces usually) and catapults rock.
Is there really noone willing to try this out?
 
Ok.

Won't work on standard settings with vassalage unless with excellent diplo. It actually works against you. The theory is that you vassal one enemy at a time. The problem is that your target can end up peace-vassaling to someone else. In which case: crap.

I'm turning off tech trades and vassal states and see how it goes.

Tech goals: Machinery for stack protection. Construction, and Engineering. Code of Laws and Currency.

On Immortal it works fine.
 
I never tried it (too cheesy). If you beeline them on deity, get some early commerce, and find iron they're probably devastating though. Seems to me that extra strength, CR, lower cost, no need for stables and earlier rush date compared to HA's should more than make up for their slow movement but this needs to be tested.

On those settings, it doesn't work well and the span life is quite short 1-2 rivals killed at max.

Although some does not want a silly HoF to back an assertion up, there was a old gauntlet called G-Major 90 (deity, normal speed) which tested such situations and only one player succeeded with Julius. But how many amongst others failed at the same time. I tried and I failed. So I slightly know what I am talking about. Praets and normal deity doesn't mesh well unless the stars are aligned...and I don't need to be a deity player to feel when a failing strat. is a failing one.
 
Most of the posters here are Deity players. So why would it be impossible for you? It's a unit which has some strong counters (such as the maceman) but will do good overall (as the AI will not have the intelligence to build lots of maces usually) and catapults rock.
Is there really noone willing to try this out?

I did, it was a fail :)
There is nothing Praets can do for you, which couldn't be done better by...HAs (slightly), Jumbos + Cats (a lot better), prot. x-bow rush or engineering rushes.

The main reason is: rushing that early doesn't make you a winner on Deity.
Taking 2, 3 or even more cities won't put you ahead of all the other AIs in the game. Speed is a huge factor, you can run into a city with 15 units in it suddenly. That does happen frequently, HAs are so good cos you can usually take 2 cities the day you DoW and work from there.
Praets cannot do fork attacks :)
 
Obviously there is a missunderstanding. Praet rush is ... Praet. Praet + Catapults is a Catapults rush. You can use what ever you want with Catapult. Therefore you can do it with Praet to.

However, with Catapult I a big fan of Drill units for the "I kill you without taking any damage".
 
They're one of the ultimate zerg rush units, and they're probably the only unit that can easily take out an established Ragnar or Monty in the medieval ages pre-Engineering.

.

Hmm, I have been seeing a lot of ideas from you, Marigold. Some maybe good, some maybe bad.

I dare you to show a case on youtube showcasting this, or even just a reported game, showcasting what you have been thinking here, regarding Praets. I for one would love to see it done in practice, because my meager skillz, or rather lack thereoff, dont suffice for Deity ;)

However, i would like to point one thing out regarding neighbors, Ragnar or any agg neighbor for that matter: You will most likely be facing Shockaxes, the bane of Praets.
And on deity, you will be facing a lot! of shockaxes, if your neighbor is Raggy, Monty or the likes of them.

7. In the late-medieval era you need a covering unit. Like an elephant. A couple of elephants with a massive stack of praets and catas make a pretty killer combo.

Hmm, you almost always neeed an/couple axemen as stackprotectors, at least on Immortal and below, to guard your precious Praets from ..Shockaxes.. :)

Praets also work better if you START next to Hannibal or Mansa Musa.

Well, MMs Skirmishers are hard even for Praets, at least in my humble exsperience, unless helped by catas, but i reckon if the neighbor is MM, you would just roll over him using Praets only ?

However, even at Standard speeds, they're one of the best medieval fighting units in the game. The praets are game-changing in the sense that they allow you to wage medieval war in situations where you otherwise cannot wage medieval war. In this sense they're like Cho-Ko-Nus, but more cost-effective.

Hmm, maybe i have used them all wrong, because i dont like them as much as prot. Xbows, or even elephants, so, im eagerly awaiting :)

EDIT: In terms of playstyle, praets are most similar to Cataphracts. Except your starting techs are better, and ORG is better than SPI, and you can start the wars much, much earlier.

On this i simply disaggree. Cataphracts are different in many ways, also better imo. I aggree on the starting techs, but im not so sure about Org. versus Spi.
The last point is not true, you can vage wars early with any leader, provided you have metal, horses or phants.

The way to leverage them is all-out, non-stop war and war planning for the next 1000 or so years. Since it takes the AI such a long time to get rifling, you've got a nice window there.

This i have done, on below emperor level with Boudica as the Dictator of Rome, that was a fun game :lol: However, doing so on higher levels, ..........im eagerly awaiting a youtube or detailed walkthrough, im always looking for ways to improve my meager skillz.

Yours Truly, Archredbeard
 
Is there really noone willing to try this out?

Deity is about high percentage plays so it is very situational. Just start a series of deity threads with praets and see who goes IW first and who doesn't and what their finish times are.
 
I did it in a deity HoF game long ago and took down 2 AI with it en route to winning...but it wasn't a competitive approach in terms of finish date.

If you want some cheese though just take a vassal and use it to win outright :p.
 
Praets also work better if you START next to Hannibal or Mansa Musa.

Oh, well that's just wonderful. Why attack just regular archers, when you can throw your units up against archers with more than an extra 25% BASE STRENGTH. Of course.. that's more logical.

Since it takes the AI such a long time to get rifling, you've got a nice window there.

Don't be silly. Your window stops when the AI gets feudalism. Even an emperor level player starts to understand that one. Needless to say, deity AIs get this one pretty damn early, and your nerfing yourself to only a movement of 1, for a very short term.

You know, there have been quite a few things you've said that have raised some eyebrows since last week. In fact, as others have mentioned some of your claims seem to be contradictory, yet you still claim everyone else doesn't get it (including some of the pros), because they don't understand Huge/Marathon.

Well, as has been also mentioned by others to you as of recently, most top players regress your deity Huge/Marathon down to the mean as simply emperor level. And yet, somehow in one week you have made the jump all the way to Deity. Not Deity-Light, or Deity-Super-Light, but true deity.

I have to say... there is a saying about extraordinary claims.... here goes:

Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence.

You are over-valueing the power of 1-movement UUs on no SC maps. An exception can be made for rifles due to the tremendous advantage in the draft at that time. And a very little notable exception for the Que (yes it's a gambit but they can work), and not to forget the Jag. But it should be kept in mind what makes the Jag so powerful is despite it's an inherent 1-movement unit, all experts will use the promotion advantage to turn it into 2 movements, which puts it into an entirely separate class.

It is interesting, that despite I've come across many noble & settler players tell me how the prats even break deity, (because it's soooooooooooooo OVERPOWERED!), I've still yet to see any one of them demonstrate this. Apparently, the excuse is that it's just too easy, so they don't bother. Haha!

This leads me to another question, if it is really so simple.... then..... why isn't everyone else who's struggling to win deity.... simply not doing it?
 
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