Wish list for the patch that will never come

With the making of Civ5 all hope for another Civ4 patch was lost. There are a number of "easy" changes that could have been made to Civ4 to improve game play if they could just have done one more patch. I'm not talking about changing the AI or making the automation smarter (so improved tiles are always preferred over non-improved tiles - Work grassland instead of grassland hill mine when building wealth?!, automated workers smarter, etc...) Just simpler things that would improve the game a lot.

Here are some of my top "easy" fixes (complaints) I have. Most of these are mentioned in pretty much every IU or NC thread...

1. Peace vassal while human is at war with AI - The sometimes pleased AI that is taking your target as vassal declares on you - how about asking "AI A is vowing protection of AI B would you like to stop the war or continue vs both?" Or at least give an option to give gold or tech to AI A right away to stop the war. If AI A is plotting on you already then it can function how it currently does.

2. Apostolic Palace - Get rid of that VC or make it so it the diplo victory won't work if it isn't built in the majority religion.

3. 1 move unit war on normal speed - Either make Commando promotion available as 2nd promotion or just allow use of enemy roads all the time and get rid of Commando. Either that or all units on normal/quick speed have +1 movement. Maybe compensate for this by only allowing units to attack a city if they started the turn in an adjacent tile.

4. The Musketman - Or the lack of a 1 movement useful unit between Maces and Rifles. Not sure how I would change this but one idea is make Musketman at least 10 strength or have Guilds open up knights and a 10 strength 1 move unit that can get city raider.

5. Late game war (see #3) - Also make units slightly stronger across the board and cost more hammers. Might lower unit counts and make modern war less horrible to play.

6. Galleon comes earlier - or even just replaces the Caravel.


...and just so this fits in this forum - here are my strategies and tips for dealing with these unfortunate features of civ4....

1. Beg gold if AI A is at pleased and is a leader that can declare at pleased. Or bribe them on AI B, which gets cheaper since you're at war already with AI B - do more damage and take capitulation first.

2. Don't build this - capture AI city that does if there's a chance they can win with it and then make sure you don't win with it.

3. Don't use 1 move units on normal speed. Horse Archer rush then Lib Military Tradition.

4. Don't ever build Musketmen. Horse Archer rush then Lib Military Tradition.

5. Use nukes. Alternative is tanks/bombers or make sure you can end the game with infantry/artillery. 2nd alternative is just tell yourself the game is won and start a new one. Or just Horse Archer rush then Lib Military Tradition.

6. Play Pangaea and Horse Archer rush then Lib Military Tradition.

I play Immortal difficulty btw - and win 90% of the time I Horse Archer rush and Lib Military Tradition.

Automated recon mode for air units. The recons done before the players turn starts.

Rally point should apply to drafted units.

(CTRL click a city to select all cities, then shift right click to set rally point)

Which makes me think of another...

Should be able to set a city as a rally point for all cities without having to shift click it first.

Control, alt, shift click actually work every time.

The game does not "think" you are pressing alt when you are not doing so.

AI makes an attempt at winning the game outside of culture

Extra naval unit of some viability between galley and galleon

Fix noobiphants (nerfed)

Spawn balance: stop giving 1 civ 50% to 100% more average land w/o war on 90% of scripts. You might say this isn't realistic, but neither is 7-18 civs developing out of nothing concurrently. If you are doing that, balance where they appear!

UN resolutions: AI does something other than pick one at random. Same for AP.

AP: Remove this or completely overhaul it.

Vassal States: Make the usage of them more rational. IE having a vassal is never a detriment to getting capitulation compared to having nothing, "islandtarget" is not a HUGE factor in cap with civs that aren't even doing damage, war success factored more heavily.

UN resolutions: AI does something other than pick one at random. Same for AP.

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Also, why are they ALWAYS voting for Environmentalism... This is so stupid. I would seriously know how this "choice" is codded...


BTW, since Civ4 SDK is quite open, wouldn't it be possible to do this final patch? :s

If it isn't official though people's patches will always vie with each other.

Change the Trireme so it can carry 2 troops, and has a 10% chance to sink if on ocean - similar to galley in civ3. Would still have to wait till Astronomy for intercontinental war if ~10 or more ocean tiles between continents. Lower hammer cost too.

Barb galleys - annoying and don't add anything to the game. Either nerf the spawn rate or never have them pillage seafood. Maybe just camp on it so you can't work it until they have something to chase. At least that would save having to build another work boat.

Barbs spawn in general could be fixed. Balanced out somewhat between maps - like on Immortal/Deity when some maps they can be ignored and others it's like an AW game until 500 BC.

I just love it how Failaxis always thought that both SERFDOM and ENVIRONMENTALISM were so over-powered.

Hahahahahaha!

I think it would be reasonable to make a new map generator script, and just popularize it, just like how normal/no huts/no events has been popularized (actually I think that's overly strict compared to better map generation).

Wonder fail gold should be scaled down with bonuses. Of course this won't stop people from trading off resources, but you won't always be able to time it, and you can't get rid of industrious+forges easily.

Great lighthouse: +1 trade route to coastal cities

3. Is terrible. AI in turn based games have enough problems dealing with multiple movement units. I honestly think multiple move units don't belong. In RTS games, units can be twice as fast, but units will have time to react; the equivalent would be faster units appearing out of nowhere and destroying your workers.

4. There's grenadiers. Muskets can work as cleanup, I could see slight buffs making them overpowered.

5.
Cavalry 120 hammers
Riflemen 110 hammers
Cuirassiers 100 hammers
Grenadiers 100 hammers
Knights 90 hammers
So cavalry cost 10 hammers more, are stronger, move faster and have an extra promotion. They should cost at least 20 to 40 hammers more than rifles. And rifles should cost more than 10 more than grenadiers.

6. Galleons shouldn't come earlier.

Less though out changes:

Explorers: can attack barbarians. Some enormous strength buff or defensive bonus vs barbs.

Aggressive: CR1 instead of combat 1 on melee. Although I'll miss getting 8 exp march with boudica

Philosophical: half cost university removed.

Organized: 3/4 cost civics. Half price factories removed

Protective: ?

Creative: half cost libraries removed.

vicawoo said:

Less though out changes:

Explorers: can attack barbarians. Some enormous strength buff or defensive bonus vs barbs.

Aggressive: CR1 instead of combat 1 on melee. Although I'll miss getting 8 exp march with boudica

Philosophical: half cost university removed.

Organized: 3/4 cost civics. Half price factories removed

Protective: ?

Creative: half cost libraries removed.

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Wow, I find that building cost reduction is the niciest part of Traits. Also I would change Financial : + 2 on ressource tiles and cost reduction for Bank.

5.
Cavalry 120 hammers
Riflemen 110 hammers
Cuirassiers 100 hammers
Grenadiers 100 hammers
Knights 90 hammers
So cavalry cost 10 hammers more, are stronger, move faster and have an extra promotion. They should cost at least 20 to 40 hammers more than rifles. And rifles should cost more than 10 more than grenadiers.

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Uh, extra promotion?
Rifles do indeed get 1-2 extra promotions if you are AGG-PRO, but the 'extra' promotion of cavalries (you are probably referring to stables here) isn't as simple as that. I usually enable vassalage and Theo when training units, so it's 9 xp vs 7.
Cavs require an extra tech, or two of them when not drafting.
Rifles require a single pop-point to train. Use drafting.
Rifles can defend.
Rifles have +25% against cavalries.
That's a lot of points against cavalries you did not mention.

Aggressive: CR1 instead of combat 1 on melee. Although I'll miss getting 8 exp march with boudica

Philosophical: half cost university removed.

Organized: 3/4 cost civics. Half price factories removed

Protective: ?

Creative: half cost libraries removed.

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Let's nerf Organized and leave Fin alone? I realize Org is more wanted on higher levels than on lower ones, but that nerf would probably hit it down from the top of the pack to the bottom of the pack.
Philo isn't that overpowered. It's earlier GP, not more. No need to nerf that one, IMHO.
I suggest you give another bonus to Aggressive, such as +10% melee and gunpowder unit production (OP? Perhaps make it siege). I like the versatility of the current C1 and the ability to get crack troops easier.
Yes, removing libs from crea might make it just right.
Pro? What about 10% bonus when fighting in homeland (Again, probably OP.)

3. 1 move unit war on normal speed - Either make Commando promotion available as 2nd promotion or just allow use of enemy roads all the time and get rid of Commando. Either that or all units on normal/quick speed have +1 movement. Maybe compensate for this by only allowing units to attack a city if they started the turn in an adjacent tile.

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Uh, no, I don't want cities to be captured before I even see the stack.

Fix the unit select code later in the game. What does that code do anyway to take one second to, e.g., CTRL-select my units? Check every tile and unit in the game? Same for city building queues late in the game...

The funny part is that they could make a HUGE impact on the gaming experience just with rather small changes. Is it asked too much to either dedicate 1-2 programmers for 1-2 months towards really EASY changes? Or at least make an announcement that the community is free to improve the game, and Firaxis will review patches made by the community and release them as official patches afterwards? Not even talking about the horror that lategame in Civ4 is due to turns that need an eternity to be processed, but the simple things:

a) INTERFACE

Proper unit selection, especially when different types are in one city. As soon as Navy, Air Force and landunits are in the same city it gets hilarious. Can't be too hard to adress something like that. Same with a shortcut for "Select All Healed Units", it's just idiotic that they included "Select All Wounded Units" but not the opposite.
Make Units ONLY move at the end of the turn when they had move orders from the last turn, and if you try to select them they do NOT move by themselves. Also applies for all other orders, like chopping for worker or so.

b) GAME MECHANICS

Most already has been mentioned. What i'd REALLY loved to see being changed is the "Revolt Mechanic" in captured cities. Okay, it's understandable that the inhabitants of a conquered city revolt, but has this to be solved by stacking tons and tons of units in the city? It'd be way more fun if you could also PAY MORE so the city keeps calm, in reality you'd pay militia or police or whatever, but not use your whole freakin' army in there. The more units you keep in the city, the less you have to pay for anti-revolt-taxes. Add a small slider so you can chose to either pay more or have the city revolt more frequently, or you can park units inside the city just like you do it right now.
Strg, Alt etc. work properly

c) BUGS

Overflow mainly... most of this approves for the Interface, though. There are several more small things, but overflow is really annoying.


Everything else could be unchanged. The game then wouldn't be perfect, but at least some nonsense "features" were out... i'm not asking for a complete overhaul, but even very small changes would have a HUGE impact on gameflow and experience.

After all Civ4 is still the game for the hardcore fanbase. I'm shocked that Firaxis ignores this fanbase almost completely. Sure, the "casual" gamers bring in more money (aka Civ5), but that doesn't mean it's clever to scare off the fanbase.... especially when it'd be rather easy to come up with some solutions to care for the hardcore gamers aswell. I can't speak for the whole community, but personally i don't want a nanny, but i'd love to see that Firaxis takes me serious. Bonus points for the one who knows which aspect had a huge impact on the sucess Blizzard has nowadays (hint: franchise care). Firaxis OTOH just seem to not care at all.

In Warlords 2.08 Organized trait doesn't have fast Factories and Creative trait doesn't have fast Libraries. Also it doesn't have AP...Why people don't play it with Black's patch? However it doesn't have mods like BUG and it's less balanced in other things.

Castles now obsolete at Industrialism rather than Economics
-Makes them useful, buffs Protective.

Players can sign "Non-Aggression Pacts" with other players
-Basically a peace treaty, removes this 1-gold-beg nonsense we have to do

Players must be running state religion of Apostolic Palace to be eligible for election or victory
-Ends this AP Cheese nonsense. It's fun and cute to do, but still gamebreaking

ahcos said:

The funny part is that they could make a HUGE impact on the gaming experience just with rather small changes. Is it asked too much to either dedicate 1-2 programmers for 1-2 months towards really EASY changes? Or at least make an announcement that the community is free to improve the game, and Firaxis will review patches made by the community and release them as official patches afterwards?

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I think you are completely off your nut here. Roughly translating - your suggesting that Firaxis spend money to buy... what, precisely? A new revenue stream? More goodwill, so that customers will buy the next release? (oh wait, that already didn't happen)

ahcos said:

Can't be too hard to adress something like that.

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Obligatory



Here's my answer: if nobody in the community cares enough about this to actually do the work (set up a shared project space, define a statement of purpose, actually sign up to both make changes and veto suggestions), then there's no reason Firaxis should do so.

Note that other Civ4 communities have had somebody willing to step in as a project lead to get something closer to the game that they want. It Can Be Done[tm], if anyone really cares.

TL;DR: Put up or shut up.

I'd ask to fix the slow response times, but that's probably a huge project.

Being able to properly shift click units to add them to a selected group (instead of accidentally selecting every single unit). Ok, I want to move half my axes, so let me control click all my axes, then shift click some of them away. Wait, it's selecting one axe or the entire stack.

Long move command + enemy unit runs in the path is an automatic fight.

Remove right click on an occupied square do you want to declare war? At least add an option, since 99% of us will declare on the person first, and I have to answer it every single time.
Remove the first contact declare war chat option.

Specialists are stupid sometimes when I'm trying to add them from tiles/citizens, although apparently I could be doing it wrong.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/archive/index.php/t-157323.html
Sirian's post
The emphasize could work better too, and if they added an espionage button maybe we could get the governor to stop running spies.

Some of the bug mod stuff: chop to 1 turn, how many times have I screwed that up. Nowadays I have to cancel orders every time I chop. Maybe a prompt before I finish building/chopping option anything option.

I really hate suicidal workers. I know there's very special circumstances regarding queueing and the move command. I guess two moving scouts right next to barbs when the first move gives you vision is also annoying, but that's kind of picky and avoidable. Also happens with other non combat units.

Remove player demand peace treaties (perhaps single player only).

Remove flying camera to see fog of war terrain. Should also probably change terrain so you can't predict tiles in fog, although they'd probably have to revamp a lot of graphics.

The game is fine as it is, i don't understand the anger on Fireaxis. We wouldn't be here if it wasn't the best strat. game in years? Some of the best money i ever spent, they owe us *nothing* ~~
The problem was Civ5 is very bad, but where is the relation to 4?

It would be no fun if everything is perfectly balanced, some peoples seem to forget that point.
The discussions would dry up, there'd be no "oooh damn this leader, but why shouldn't i try to win with him".
Even no-love Protective has it's place in the game, as it makes AIs tougher and plays a part in planning when it comes to "who do i attack?"

vicawoo said:

Creative: half cost libraries removed.

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? That's all this trait is good for