Nobles' Club LXXXIX: Victoria of England

dalamb

dalamb

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The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Victoria of England, whom we last played in NC XXXVII. We last played England under Elizabeth in NC LVIII. The English start with Fishing and Mining.
Victoria.jpg
  • Traits: Victoria is Financial and Imperialistic. FIN gives +1:commerce: on tiles that already have at least 2:commerce:; IMP gives faster great generals and settlers. The IMP settler production, combined with FIN commerce, might make REXing more viable than usual.
  • The UB: The Stock Exchange, a Bank with +65%:gold: instead of the usual +50%; it synergizes well with FIN in cities turning commerce into gold.
    StockExchange.jpg

  • The UU: The Redcoat, a Rifleman with +25% versus gunpowder units.
    Redcoat.jpg
And the start:
start.jpg

Spoiler map details :
Hemispheres, Medium Sea Level, Normal Continents, Islands, 2 Continents
Spoiler edits :
I regenerated many, many maps trying to get one that actually had 2 continents instead of 3 or 4, and didn't have one AI with huge territory into which it could expand unopposed -- finally giving up on achieving both.
Spoiler the result :
3 continents but a pair are close enough to reach each other via galley.
I then swapped us with an AI that had a seafood start (because of Fishing). I extended a tiny river to reach the rice and added a seafood to an island with some useful resources but no food.
Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:
There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do suggest that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards. You can post as often as you like; here's one suggestion:
  • 4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
  • 1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
  • 500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
  • 1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other
  • continent if applicable, etc)
  • 1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
  • End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)
This is just a guideline. If you're trying to improve your game, then posting more frequent updates, in as much detail as you can manage, is the best way to get suggestions from other players. If you come to what seems like a major decision and you want some advice, post an update, regardless of what game-year it is.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps in the early days of the series, and all of you for playing.
Click to expand...
The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 89 Victoria Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels)You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Noble. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

  1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
  2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
  3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
  4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
  5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
  6. Exit the worldbuilder.
  7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
Spoiler huts and events :
Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.
 

Attachments

Reserved.

Here are a few things people reported while (or after) playing the game, all of which spoil significant details about the map:
Spoiler :
The map turned out to be more watery than intended (with 3 continents and lots of islands, instead of 2 continents). This means a Trade Route Economy (TRE) with the Great Lighthouse and Colossus might be the best way to go at lower levels where you're reasonably likely to get them.
Spoiler our continent :
We are alone with Pacal on one continent. He tends to go for multiple religions -- Hinduism and Judaism, at least -- which means that whichever continent gets Buddhism turns into a one-religion lovefest, and if the third continent gets a later religion it may turn out the same way.
Spoiler other AIs :
There are three heavy techers (Mansa, Darius, and Washington) on the hard-to-reach (post-Astronomy) continent. At higher levels this means they'll likely get far ahead of you on technology.
 
SIP gives us plains cow and clam. I don't find that exciting so I'd like to move 1 NW for the plain hills and get a workboat out faster, and grab the irrigated rice. It also gives more green hills (+2 Green hills and -2 plains hill with us deriving a bonus hammer per turn from the lost plains hill, I don't mind that at all!) and less poopy water tiles. That also enables us to settle a city on the plains hill 1N2E to share cows and clam if needed. We can have 2 very nice production sites off the bat with no need to build monuments.

Judging by the land south I think a GLH may be useful.
 
Water tiles are not poopy at all when you are FIN. This being said, I agree with 1NW for the extra hammer and the grass hills.
 
Monarch/Normal/No huts or events

Spoiler to 0AD :

Agri---> AH--->BW---> Mysti---> Sailing---> Masonry; pretty straight forward stuff
Well, as I expected the Great Lighthouse looked like a good option with the offshore stuff. It'd be a good idea to use a workboat to check out the stone site down there.

I placed York 4e1s of the capital, a bit further down than originally planned due to the discovery of cows.

Wonders were going really slow this game, so I decided to use York to build the Great Wall. It worked!

Civ4ScreenShot0035-2.jpg


I was only gonna bother with coastal spots, but with 2 different luxuries here, that's too hard to pass up.

Civ4ScreenShot0036-2.jpg


Wow Oracle went really late didn't it? And I still just grabbed Metal Casting to grab the Collosus.

Civ4ScreenShot0037-2.jpg


I didn't expand much except to throw up a city to stop Pacal from coming to the west, it's a pretty crappy island and being semiisolated... ugh -_-

The stone spot turned out to have seafood reasonably close, and that actually got me the mids!

Spoiler to 1625 AD :

Well, slow tech is slow tech. We meet the other people, Boudica and later Khan but it turns out they've been fighting so we trade our crappy techs. I was afraid the other continent had us outteched and once we met them that was certain with Mansa of all people... Well, picking up astronomy really helps.

The capital was really good production so even without marble it was easy to build the Great Lib, though Pacal stole the chapel. >.>

Nobody build the AP by 1000 AD, so I burned a GE on it. It wasn't a really good idea since I only had Buddhism and Pacal was dominant there, but whatever, I hate it when the AP gets built in a religion I have no control over. I'll just capture his votes. Libbed MT around 1100 and did the usual thing, making sure the AP vote cycle passed.

Civ4ScreenShot0041-2.jpg


Civ4ScreenShot0042-2.jpg


Oh man it's already the 1600s >.> I HATE intercontential invasions so let me get SP ready and go crap over Khan/Boudica. They've been fighting each other so much that they don't even have gunpowder... that entire continent is easy pickings. I won't even have to switch to cannons. Though the last continent is gonna be hard to break.

Civ4ScreenShot0043-2.jpg

 

Attachments

Aaw, Victoria with her awe inspiring beauty!

I second most of Archon Wings opinions about the opening.
I'll think moving the warrior SW will give us the most important information we need right now.
 
I'm going 1NW, still have enough hills for good production and the PH bonus is nice, and start off AG-AH for the rice+cow, maybe go WB first, work the other PH when the border pops, then go worker at size 2? I haven't run any calcs, but I think that would be slightly better.
 
@GGracchus

You mean something like

Work Cows for 5 Turns (10:food:/22, 15:hammers:/30)
Work Rice for 4 Turns (22:food:/22, 23:hammers:/30)
Switch to Worker, work Cows + Rice for 5 Turns (0:food:/24, 30:hammers:/60)
Revolt to Slavery, 1 Pop Whip Worker, Overflow in to Workboat
ie Work Rice + whip = (0:food:/22, 65:hammers:/60)
Work Rice = (3:food:/22, 30:hammers:/30)

As Workboat takes 1 Turn to get to Clams you get Current 3:food: + 3:food: (Rice) + 4 turns 4:food: (Clams) to grow to Pop 2 :)
 
I noticed a phenomenom in NC.. 83? Haniball of Carthage.

I was able to revolt to slavery, at the turn when the workboat was finished.
This was nice, because the workboat could get into possition, while there was anarchy.

It could be possible here as well since Victoria is also financial, but I am not sure.
The clams are not in ring 1 if you move NW.
 
Zx Zero Zx said:
Do not like water based maps. :( You have like 0 tech potential.
Click to expand...
Spoiler reference to map specifics :
Hemispheres isn't supposed to be as watery as some, but as the map spoiler says in the OP it was hard to get something with exactly 2 continents AND no AI with too much room. Maybe I should start ignoring that 2nd concern? It's mostly an issue for higher difficulties, which isn't the demographic we're aiming for.
 
WB first, you need to research BW in 11 or 8 Turns to revolt as the Workboat moves

Work Cows for 5 Turns (10/22, 15/30)
Work Rice for 4 Turns (22/22, 23/30)
Cow + Forest Grass Hill (1/24, 28/30)
Rice + Clams (4/24, 30/30)

Above gives you the most :commerce: in the quickest pop2 WB time.

2 Turns Cows (4/22, 6/30)
6 Turns Forest Grass Hill (10/22, 30/30)

Above is most :commerce: in quickest pop1 WB time

If anyone see something I've missed point it out :p
 
Zx Zero Zx said:
Do not like water based maps. :( You have like 0 tech potential.
Click to expand...

Great Lighthouse/Colossus, spam cities with imperialist trait, work food + coast tiles with financial leader.

If you're talking about imm/deity where you can't build the GLight easy...then you might have a point. Otherwise, watery maps have huge tech potential with Great Lighthouse abuse + Colossus.

cas
 
The English would be more popular if they made Victoria and Elizabeth prettier.

Too bad there's nothing that can be done about Churchill.
 
dalamb said:
Spoiler reference to map specifics :
Hemispheres isn't supposed to be as watery as some, but as the map spoiler says in the OP it was hard to get something with exactly 2 continents AND no AI with too much room. Maybe I should start ignoring that 2nd concern? It's mostly an issue for higher difficulties, which isn't the demographic we're aiming for.
Click to expand...

Spoiler :
I understand it's not the demographic you're aiming for but still. I was playing on Immortal, had the GLH, and around 15 cities but still had no tech potential. Hell Pacal got Lib at like 200 AD I think.... On Immortal not Deity. Plus you have absolutely 0 way to rush him out of the picture, no Horses, and the Copper is 5 million miles away.


@Cas I got the GLH in my game, but trying to get both GLH and Colossus on Immortal is well quite difficult. Plus your neighbor researches like hes on Deity on Immortal, and you have no way to rush him out. If you could the map wouldn't be hard.
 
Habitus said:
WB first, you need to research BW in 11 or 8 Turns to revolt as the Workboat moves

Work Cows for 5 Turns (10/22, 15/30)
Work Rice for 4 Turns (22/22, 23/30)
Cow + Forest Grass Hill (1/24, 28/30)
Rice + Clams (4/24, 30/30)

Above gives you the most :commerce: in the quickest pop2 WB time.
Click to expand...

This is close to the right idea - it doesn't quite work though, as you don't manage to finish Bronze Working in time (on Noble, you are one turn late).

An interesting alternative is to punt the commerce, and work the overflow

Work Cows for 5 Turns (10/22, 15/30)
Work Rice for 4 Turns (22/22, 23/30)
Cow + Forest Grass Hill for 2 Turns (2/24, 33/30)

The boat is done, but it's too soon for anarchy. Overflow into a worker

Cow + Rice (2/24, 9/60)
Clams + Cows for 3 turns (2/24, 30/60)
Anarchy
Whip (2/22, 66/60)

Clams for 5 turns (0/24, 16/?) That might be a warrior; or maybe the worker is chopping you to 36 hammers and a second work boat.

Probably that means worker chops the hill, mines the hill (if agriculture hasn't come in yet), farms the rice, then resumes mining.


There is one potentially evil trick available, on Noble.

Bronze Working comes in one turn late - you can't switch civics while the work boat is on the way to the SW clams. What you can do, is switch civics while the work boat is on the way to the SE (!) clams. The boat gets there at turn "late", but you were in anarchy anyway so it doesn't change any of the subsequent timing.

What it gains you is that the "second" clam is now one turn closer to the city.

Whip the worker, overflow into boat. Worker goes 1N to chop, while you are working the improved clams. The second boat is available when your food bar is at 18/22. You grow to size two while the second boat is traveling to the clams, and you get to improve the clams and work them immediately without any turns working unimproved tiles.



Work Cows for 5 Turns (10/22, 15/30)
Work Rice for 4 Turns (22/22, 23/30)
Cow + Forest Grass Hill for 2 Turns (2/24, 33/30)
Cow + Rice (2/24, 9/60)
Anarchy
Clams + Cows for 3 turns (2/24, 30/60)
Whip (2/22, 66/60)
Clams for 4 turns + chop (18/22, 34/30)
Clams for 1 turn (0/24, 6/?)
2x Clams for 3 turns (18/24, 12/?)
etc.
 
Main advantage from growing with a workboat, teching BW and whipping the worker (+ chopping 2nd boat), is gaining commerce faster. Important on higher diff. for gettings techs towards GLH :)
Here you would certainly want to skip Agri/AH for a while when trying it on Deity, and go for sailing.
 
Yup, wasnt sure of timing on noble so just tried to max the commerce so people could check and see :) The plan I would use is likely the first one that grows to 2, switch to worker whip and use overflow to finish the WB. 14 turns for BW in that plan, 187:science: if my half asleep calcs are right :)
 
so is it better to
grow on workboat -> whip worker -> complete workboat
or
complete workboat ASAP -> grow on 2nd workboat -> whip worker
or
grow to 2 on workboat -> complete workboat ASAP -> whip worker

I assume all of those options are best for commerce, but going worker first and Agri->AH would be better for food/hammers. Yes?

Come to think, it probably depends on the difficulty (time to reach techs)
 
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