Should we write down/formalize the modding netiquette?

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The_J

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Due to recent events I've decided to ask the community this question: Should we write down/formalize the modding netiquette?

We had some troubles because we had people here who didn't follow the netiquette or didn't know it, and also sometimes user ask what is community wise required if you want to make a mod here.
Is there a need to formalize the simple things like
- everything uploaded is free
- give credit if you use something
- if you see a missing credit, politely notify the modder
- if someone notifies you about missing credits, then politely add them
?

Should we write that down, so that nobody can miss it?
Or is it rather not needed, because most people will follow these points, even without knowing?

Does anyone have opinions about that?
 
I think writing rules for our modding netiquette per se isn't a very good idea, since people already mostly behave well and there can be special cases which won't fit in.

But, writing down guidelines for modding netiquette I think would be great. It would provide a clear reference for people to have in regards to how to behave, without restricting them to abide to it in a rigid manner.

As for the items that such a guideline would encompass, you mentioned:

- everything uploaded is free
- give credit if you use something
- if you see a missing credit, politely notify the modder
- if someone notifies you about missing credits, then politely add them

I agree with all of those; I would only change the wording of the first one to be "don't ask for money for your uploads", as the original wording could imply that we are saying the Firaxis content which we often modify (like the vanilla leaderheads) is free as well.
 
I meant it more in the way "No permission required", than regarding money (don't think there are many problems with that, but can be added as well).
If it's written down, we'd probably also lose some more words than these few, but I think most current modders will know what I mean with it (besides this one ambiguity here, sorry :blush:)

And yes, meant it rather as guidelines, not as strict rules.
Just want to have something where I can point someone to and say "dude, you're doing it wrong", so that nobody can say that he/she missed it/didn't know it/didn't see it anywhere mentioned.
 
I meant it more in the way "No permission required", than regarding money (don't think there are many problems with that, but can be added as well).
If it's written down, we'd probably also lose some more words than these few, but I think most current modders will know what I mean with it (besides this one ambiguity here, sorry :blush:)

And yes, meant it rather as guidelines, not as strict rules.
Just want to have something where I can point someone to and say "dude, you're doing it wrong", so that nobody can say that he/she missed it/didn't know it/didn't see it anywhere mentioned.

:)

I think indeed talking about asking for money is unnecessary, since obviously no one does that anyway. So:

- No permission is required to use other modders' content in your own mod
- Give credit if you use something
- If you see a missing credit, politely notify the modder
- If someone notifies you about missing credits, then politely add them

Your four items sound good to me; I changed the first a bit to make it more clear that it is talking about permission, what do you think?
 
I've never been a fan of secret rules because I often fail to learn them, although I did know all the ones you stated, so I think that they should be written down or formalized.
 
That you know them is rather a point for saying "rather not needed" ;).

I think indeed talking about asking for money is unnecessary, since obviously no one does that anyway.

You shouldn't be too fast here ;).
Maniac said once that he was asked if he would allow that Planetfall is distributed via a to a gaming mag related pay site. He said no due to modding and legal reasons (the thread about that is rather old).
-> While this doesn't really occure often, you shouldn't say that there's no possibility.

Your four items sound good to me; I changed the first a bit to make it more clear that it is talking about permission, what do you think?

Clearer now :).
 
I think most of these are pretty much common sense and are followed by the modding community anyway. But having some guidelines can't hurt either, I guess.
 
I think this is a great idea.

Also, The_J, I know that it is strictly forbidden to offer/accept money for modding and I fully understand the reasoning behind this. However, I'd like to throw an idea out strictly for comment. Would it be acceptable to offer/accept an offer of modding for a donation to a non-profit organization/charity? For example, someone has a mod request and says "I'll make a $20 donation to a charity/non-profit of the persons choice to whoever fills this request." The person who is fulfilling the request is not making a profit per the guidelines, and the money is going to a good place to benefit someone in need.

I'd be interested on hearing people's thoughts on this. I don't want to threadjack, so if you'd like I can start a new thread.
 
I'm no lawyer, but I don't think its illegal to accept money for modding. It's just important that it would be handled as a donation, and not a requirement to access the mod.
 
If we write it down, then it will also be stickied :).

I think most of these are pretty much common sense and are followed by the modding community anyway. But having some guidelines can't hurt either, I guess.

You're right, but wanted to hear the opinions nevertheless.
It's triggered by some recent events, that's why I ask.

I think this is a great idea.

[...] However, I'd like to throw an idea out strictly for comment. Would it be acceptable to offer/accept an offer of modding for a donation to a non-profit organization/charity? For example, someone has a mod request and says "I'll make a $20 donation to a charity/non-profit of the persons choice to whoever fills this request." The person who is fulfilling the request is not making a profit per the guidelines, and the money is going to a good place to benefit someone in need.

I'd be interested on hearing people's thoughts on this. I don't want to threadjack, so if you'd like I can start a new thread.

:think: uh...what a question.
Has this ever happened here?

-------
Donations per se are okay.
So i'd say that also this case is not a problem and is allowed.
(the admins have the last word here, but that's currently soooo hypothetical that I don't really want to ask them).


Also, The_J, I know that it is strictly forbidden to offer/accept money for modding and I fully understand the reasoning behind this.

I'm no lawyer, but I don't think its illegal to accept money for modding. It's just important that it would be handled as a donation, and not a requirement to access the mod.

I don't know if it is technically illegal (and this could differ per the laws of each country) but I believe it is a CFC policy.

:yup: ripple is right. The admins said that we should keep the money (and probably other types of RL stuff) out of here, because we're not an online market and it would offer the possibility for fraud.
(but overall not really a big issue for this community)
 
So if a member approaches me and says "I'd like to thank you for your work with a donation of x" (I don't think my mod deserves this, so this is more of a hypothetical ;)), I'd be forced to decline because of board policy?
 
We try to keep money out of this.
 
I would also add:
- If you modify the game's source code, you should release it along with your mod.
- If you use another modder's source code and modify it, you should release your modifications.

The first rule is relevant for source code which is based on Firaxis'. When writing an external tool it's up to the modder whether she wishes to publish the source code or not.

Thoughts?
 
One of the problems I have is remembering who created all the units I might install in my mod. So adding credits when a modder notices I have used one is a good idea. However, I believe in giving credit to those designers who you have used the most, e.g. in my Mod it would be Dale, and my next mod it would be Genghis Khan.

However, it gets very difficult to keep track of all the credits if you are using mods on top of mods, e.g. GEM uses RevDCM, BUG, etc.
 
...for the bigger parts it shouldn't be too difficult imho ^^.
If you don't know who exactly worked on a bigger part, then it shouldn't be a problem to credit it as "XY Team (a, b, c and others)" or something similar.



And I notice that quite some time passed since my last post...just to say, I haven't forgotten this, I'll try to draft something in the next week.
 
Man, Gods + Kings really ruined my schedule. Wanted to do that on thursday, but you know...
Okay, here the current draft:
-------------------------------------

Attention: The following is not only my work, it's a C&P from kiwitts further work on my original text from the next page (which is still there in the spoiler, if anyone wonders).

Introduction

This modiquette is the compilation of all the unwritten rules, which the modders here have essentially followed already. They show the essential spirit of this community, to help one another develop and enjoy the Civilization game. If you want to be a good member of this community, then please follow them too.

The Modiquette
  1. When you upload content, you automatically grant permission for it to be used by all members of this community.
  2. Therefore no permission is required to use content that is uploaded.
  3. However, the modder should give credit for any content used in their mod.
  4. If you identify another modder's content being used in a mod, notify the mod's modder.
  5. If someone notifies you about another modder's non-credited content, you should then add the credit.
  6. If you modify the game's source code or another modder's source code, you should release the new source code as part of your mod.
Background on permissions, credits and source code
No permission required
Requiring permission to use something here on the forums is not workable. This forum has existed for more than 10 years. It will probably also exist in 10 years or more. You don't know if you'll be here in 10 years, but what you've uploaded will still be here. If you left the forum, who should be asked? If you see something uploaded in 2002, 2005, 2008, and the modder has left, who should you ask? Working with permissions is therefore not realistic. We therefore consider that you imply with your upload that what you've uploaded is free to use. Else...what would be the point of an upload?

Give credit if you use something
Since no permissions are required, there is the need to honour someone's hard work. This is done with a "credit list", or "credits", which means that you name the persons whose work you used in your mod. A simple list at the end of your mod will do it. If you don't know who did something specific, then credit the mod team with a list of their members (Mod XY (user A, user B and others)), ... and a generic thank you to the all many unknown modders won't go amiss either.

Why is this important?
People do all sorts of things and upload them. Some things were made for fun, some because somebody requested them. People put time, creativity and nerves into these things, and sometimes they don't even use them themselves, but are only done for the other modders around. The only thing which is requested is that you put their name into your mod. Everyone who worked for that mod will then take a look at that list, and will get some satisfaction that their work is useful, and that other people can see it. If no credits are given, it will discourage these people. Why create something for someone else, if you then claim this work for yourself and don't honour the original creators? So please put the names there. It's not a difficult thing, it doesn't require much work, and it will make your fellow modders happy.​

Another point of view
Mods are big. They require lots of work. Different art is needed, different code is needed, different maps are needed. Nobody can do a big mod alone. Nobody can make all the needed units, leaderheads, buildings, maps and code parts. Everyone uses stuff from other people. If you have a long credit list, it shows that you have put much effort into finding the best art and the best code around to create a good mod for the players. Who would trust you if you claimed to have a great mod, but none of the master artists, nobody from the coding people is listed? A credit list is not something to be ashamed of. It shows that you put all possible work into your mod to make it great.​

Missing credits
Most people who have worked longer than a week on a mod will know this situation: You dig through your folders of downloaded stuff, and you find something which you really need at this moment...but you have no clue who made it. Should you not use it? No, that would be a waste of good art, code or maps. But now, if you've uploaded your mod and someone points out that you missed a person on your credit list, then please add them to the list. Like already said, please honour the people who did the work.​

The view from the other side:
If you see that someone didn't credit you, but used your work, then there's no need to be outraged. The organization of a big mod can be a mess. You forget stuff. It's like that. There's no malicious intent behind it. What to do? Point it out, but be nice. Especially new modders will be happy to see a "senior" drop by and comment on their mod. And while you leave a note ("nice work here" is something which you should be able to say for other mods), just say that XY is from you and that you'd like to be on the credit list. And like explained above, it should be a non-issue to do that.​

Modified code
The only point in Civ4 modding where you can release things which cannot be reused is the .dll. Some people might think now "great, my exclusive features, nobody can use them". Does this make you smart? Maybe. Does this make you to a prick? Sure. This community here relies on sharing things. Art is shared, maps are shared, code is shared. And if you're here, you've sure also taken things from the community, in form of the mentioned things or as advice. So not releasing your source code is not fair. Give something back to the community, so that everyone can benefit from it. Share your source code (if not in the direct download, then as a separate file), so that nobody will have a problem with redoing the same stuff and that the idea is not lost. Would be a shame if you did something great, but nobody is able to use it. It might even get lost, which would be an even bigger shame.

Obsolete version:
Spoiler :

This netiquette is the compilation of all the unwritten rules, which the modders here have followed in the last years.
They show the spirit of this community. If you want to be a good member of the community, then please follow them too :).

The "rules"
  • No permission is required to use other modders' content in your own mod and nobody should require permission for his uploaded things
  • Give credit if you use something
  • If you see a missing credit, politely notify the modder
  • If someone notifies you about missing credits, then politely add them
  • If you modify the game's source code or another modder's source code, you should release it along with your mod.

No permission required
Requiring permission to use something here on the forums is not a workable.
This forum has existed for more than 10 years. It will probably also exist in 10 years.
You don't know if you'll anymore be here in 10 years, but what you've uploaded will be here.
If you left the forum, who should be asked?
If you see something uploaded in 2002, 2005, 2008, and the modder has left, who should you ask?
Working with permissions is therefore not realistic.
We therefore consider that you imply with your upload that what you've uploaded is free to use.
Else...what would be the point of an upload?

Give credit if you use something

Since no permissions are required, there's the need to honour someones hard work.
This is done with a "credit list", or "credits", which means that you name the persons whose work you used in your mod.
A simple list at the end of your mod will do it. If you don't know who did something specific, then credit the mod team with a list of their members (Mod XY (user A, user B and others)).

Why is this important?
People do all sorts of things and upload them. Some things were made for fun, some because somebody requested them.
People put time, creativity and nerves into these things, and sometimes they don't even use them themselves, but are only done for the other modders around.
The only thing which is requested is that you put their name into your mod. Everyone who worked for that mod will then take a look at that list, and will get some satisfaction that his/her work is useful, and that other people can see it.
If no credits are given, it will discourage these people. Why create something for someone else, if you then claim this work for yourself and don't honour the original creators?
So please put the names there. It's not a difficult thing, it doesn't require much work, and it will make your fellow modders happy.

Another point of view:
Mods are big. They require lots of work. Different art is needed, different code is needed, different maps are needed.
Nobody can do a big mod alone. Nobody can make all the needed units, leaderheads, buildings, maps and code parts. Everyone uses stuff from other people.
If you have a long credit list, it shows that you have put much effort into finding the best art and the best code around to create a good mod for the players.
Who would trust you if you claimed to have a great mod, but none of the master artists, nobody from the coding people is listed?
A credit list is not something to be ashamed of. It shows that you put all possible work into your mod to make it great.

Missing credits
Most people who have worked longer than a week on a mod will know this situation: You dig through your folders of downloaded stuff, and you find something which you really need at this moment...but you have no clue who made it.
Should you not use it? No, that would be a waste of good art/code/maps.
But now, if you've uploaded your mod and someone points out that you missed a person on your credit list, then please add them to the list. Like already said, please honour the people who did the work.

The view from the other side: If you see that someone didn't credit you, but used your work, then there's no need to be outraged. The organization of a big mod can be a mess. You forget stuff. It's like that. There's no malintent behind it.
What to do? Point it out, but be nice. Especially new modders will be happy to see a "senior" drop by and comment on their mod. And while you leave a note ("nice work here" is something which you should be able to say for other mods), just say that XY is from you and that you'd like to be on the credit list. And like explained above, it should be a non-issue to do that.

Modified code
In CivIV modding the dll is the only place where you can release things which cannot be reused.
Some people might think now "great, my exclusive features, nobody can use them". Does this make you smart? Maybe. Does this make you to an prick? Sure.
This community here relies on sharing things. Art is shared, maps are shared, code is shared. And if you're here, you've sure also taken things from the community, in form of the mentioned things or as advice.
So not releasing your source code is not fair. Give something back to the community, so that everyone can benefit from it. Share your source code (if not in the direct download, then as a separate file), so that nobody will have a problem with redoing the same stuff and that the idea is not lost. Would be a shame if you did something great, but nobody is able to use it. It might even get lost, which would be an even bigger shame.



-------------------------------------


Okay, what is missing, where is room for improvement?

And since I'm not a native english speaker: Grammar nazism is welcome (spell check not needed, already done).
 
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