5 Most Fun & Addictive Leaders - 2012 Edition

Thalassicus · Feb 15, 2012, 08:52 PM

Vote for 4 to 6 leaders you find most fun and addictive to play in the Vanilla Enhanced Mod!

It is not necessarily about buffs/nerfs or overpowered/underpowered. Fun and favorites are a more complex. If a leader simply had +50% production and nothing else, that'd be powerful, but probably not as fun as some cool bonus that changes gameplay in a more interesting way. I like characteristics that let us play differently instead of just better.

Zaldron · Feb 16, 2012, 11:43 AM

I'm playing my first England game in quite some time and Longbowmen are both powerful and fun. I'm still not sure if they're overpowered or not, but range 4 indirect fire longbows are terrific fun to play with.

Sneaks · Feb 17, 2012, 05:47 PM

Sejong is still brutally good. It is hard to lose with him.
Siam is still a BEAST at culture games, and again easymode.

I still find the Ottomans boring.

Thalassicus · Feb 17, 2012, 06:14 PM

I was thinking about the Ottomans the other day and realized why they're boring.

The trait fits historically, is powerful, unique, and so on... but is on the far left on the fun meter. The best option is to fill any Ottoman specialist slot in all circumstances, so there's no decision-making involved. It's basically a boring passive +yields to cities based on development.

What if we split the German barb effect into land/sea versions, buff both, and put the sea version on Suleiman?

Sneaks · Feb 17, 2012, 07:18 PM

I say we get rid of the Artist and Merchant slots from EVERY Ottoman building and replace them all with Minister specialists that are 2

2

and produce a GP that can both culture bomb and do the merchant mission. The Improvement could use the Merchant graphic and be some manner of Ministry.

On top of that rather wishy washy ability, we add the unique Ottoman events which occur every time a Great Minister is born which allow us to choose some manner of policy for the city they come from.

Thalassicus · Feb 17, 2012, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sneaks

get rid of the Artist and Merchant slots from EVERY Ottoman building

How would this even be accomplished?

Sneaks · Feb 17, 2012, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalassicus

How would this even be accomplished?

Easy. UBs for each Ottoman building with these slots. Identical name and art, just rewriting SPECIALIST_MINISTER where it says SPECIALIST_MERCHANT, etc.

Thalassicus · Feb 17, 2012, 08:12 PM

Would that run into any database caps? There's a restriction on the number of promotions we can add, for example... about 60.

Sneaks · Feb 17, 2012, 08:22 PM

Nope. The only aesthetic issue would be in the Civ selection screen where it might choose the wrong two uniques to appear. Given that mods like CCTP have close to quadruple vanilla buildings, I am quite positive if there is a cap on buildings, we are nowhere near it.

black213 · Feb 18, 2012, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalassicus

What if we split the German barb effect into land/sea versions, buff both, and put the sea version on Suleiman?

I think having one leader UA focused on barbarians is enough.

albie_123 · Feb 18, 2012, 04:45 AM

I think having an entirely new GP and Specialist as a UA for one civ is a bit much. Maybe something more along the lines of a UU replacement for one GP, ala Genghis, would be more appropriate? Or maybe every Specialist building increases the chance of a Great Person more than usual?

I do agree with black213 that having Suleiman related to Barbs would take a lot of the unique-ness away from Bismarck.

More on topic, Arabia is still my favourite Civ to play, as it has been from the beginning. Great fun trying to grab resources, his desert start always makes for interesting city development, and the extra gold is always good fun to play with.

Lizzie and Askia still have boring UA's in my opinion, Lizzies mainly being due to the ineptitude of the AI to use its navy well. Sejong is still easymode for science, and in my opinion, Monty's UA still completely lacks direction: The early culture gain, even when fully invested in honour, does not really aid that much with a conquest victory, which is what Monty should be geared towards.

Thalassicus · Feb 18, 2012, 05:21 AM

Denmark is more oriented towards conquest culture, since the Jelling Stones give a large

boost from each city captured. Monty's bonus focuses on the units.

black213 · Feb 18, 2012, 07:13 AM

I find it weird that Persia has only 0 votes. It's odd considering the somewhat recent big change to it's Satrap's Court and them getting a lot of votes previously.

Thalassicus · Feb 18, 2012, 09:51 AM

In a previous poll a lot of people said Persia was their #6 choice, so it often goes unlisted. I think I might redesign Immortals.

Sneaks · Feb 18, 2012, 10:02 AM

Persia also still falls sadly under the Ottoman umbrella of civs that really don't force decisions upon you as the bonuses are either passive or simply force a style of play.

Thalassicus · Feb 18, 2012, 10:45 AM

Persian workers at 3

do operate very differently than other leaders. That's the part I find most distinct.

mitsho · Feb 19, 2012, 07:22 AM

For the Ottomans, adding the sea part in a lowered form in addition to their governance bonus might be a solution and go back to vanilla. Many think, Bismarck is too strong anyways.

Otherwise, if you want a payoff, you could change the specialist bonus a bit: Every specialist gives +2 to his yield (or one more than atm, i'm not sure what that is), but also costs more food or money (the ottomans were famous for their gold problems, not)?

Ok, what about a combination: The ottoman specialists are better, so you want to fill every slot of them. But that's hard, because they cost gold for the Ottomans. To finance them, they need to wage constant war as their second ability gives them small amounts of money for killing units or they have to use the captured ships to pay for them.

That gives the player the challenge to balance the specialist with waging war. And since the two unique units of the Ottomans are war units, and one even has a pillaging bonus, they'd fit together more. Not sure what to do about Merchants though...

I don't like the Danes atm, I liked them better when their two unique units built upon each other...

albie_123 · Feb 19, 2012, 07:52 AM

I very much like the Danes at the moment, to be honest. Their unique wonder is one of the best alterations to a Civ that has been made in VEM, in my humble opinion.

Txurce · Feb 20, 2012, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalassicus

What if we split the German barb effect into land/sea versions, buff both, and put the sea version on Suleiman?

I'm all in favor of this. I don't think it makes Germany problematically less unique - it's what vanilla has. The problem there was that it didn't deliver much. As is, Germany is very popular in MP. Having played them a lot in VEM, I can attest that the fleets may be even more fun than the army. Playing with a swarm of ships - which is what the Ottomans had with their galleys - could make them a blast to play with, and absolute killers when their UU's came around. If both countries were buffed as per Thal - maybe an automatic promotion? - I would be dying to play with the Ottomans. There would be nothing like it (the Germans can only have so many ships because their army is so huge).

lindanealmck · Feb 20, 2012, 09:59 AM

Americans are alot of fun to play with the sight bonus, then the overpowered Musketmen with the recon promotion. If you have a barracks and an armory, then Musketmen can get the march (heal every turn) promotion immediately without Brandonburg gate.
English are fun with the fast water transport for all units, the Steam Plant, and of course those deadly longbows.
Both of these civs got 8 or 9 votes so far - no surprise there.

View Poll Results: Pick your 5 favorite leaders!
Alexander - Greece	4	12.12%
Askia - Songhai	4	12.12%
Augustus Caesar - Rome	7	21.21%
Bismark - Germany	5	15.15%
Catherine - Russia	9	27.27%
Darius - Persia	4	12.12%
Elizabeth - England	9	27.27%
Gandhi - India	5	15.15%
Genghis Khan - Mongolia	6	18.18%
Harald Bluetooth - Denmark	4	12.12%
Harun al-Rashid - Arabia	7	21.21%
Hiawatha - Iroquois	2	6.06%
Isabella - Spain	5	15.15%
Kamehameha - Polynesia	5	15.15%
Montezuma - Aztecs	5	15.15%
Napoleon - France	6	18.18%
Nebuchadnezzar - Babylon	6	18.18%
Oda Nobunaga - Japan	4	12.12%
Pachacuti - Incas	7	21.21%
Ramesses II - Egypt	11	33.33%
Ramkhamhaeng - Siam	3	9.09%
Sejong - Korea	3	9.09%
Suleiman - Ottomans	1	3.03%
Washington - America	11	33.33%
Wu Zetian - China	3	9.09%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

Feb 15, 2012, 08:52 PM	#1
Thalassicus Deity Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 10,263	5 Most Fun & Addictive Leaders - 2012 Edition Vote for 4 to 6 leaders you find most fun and addictive to play in the Vanilla Enhanced Mod! It is not necessarily about buffs/nerfs or overpowered/underpowered. Fun and favorites are a more complex. If a leader simply had +50% production and nothing else, that'd be powerful, but probably not as fun as some cool bonus that changes gameplay in a more interesting way. I like characteristics that let us play *differently* instead of just better. __________________ We are the Modders. CiV will be assimilated. We will enhance its biological and technological distinctiveness with our own. Resistance is futile. Communitas Expansion Pack Wiki - Discussion - News Forum Icons ~ Starting Civ5 Mods ~ Forum Tables Last edited by Thalassicus; Feb 18, 2012 at 10:21 PM.

Feb 17, 2012, 06:14 PM	#4
Thalassicus Deity Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 10,263	I was thinking about the Ottomans the other day and realized why they're boring. The trait fits historically, is powerful, unique, and so on... but is on the far left on the fun meter. The best option is to fill any Ottoman specialist slot in all circumstances, so there's no decision-making involved. It's basically a boring passive +yields to cities based on development. What if we split the German barb effect into land/sea versions, buff both, and put the sea version on Suleiman? __________________ We are the Modders. CiV will be assimilated. We will enhance its biological and technological distinctiveness with our own. Resistance is futile. Communitas Expansion Pack Wiki - Discussion - News Forum Icons ~ Starting Civ5 Mods ~ Forum Tables Last edited by Thalassicus; Feb 17, 2012 at 08:11 PM.

Feb 17, 2012, 07:18 PM	#5
Sneaks Brooklyn Bum Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: NYC Posts: 1,876	I say we get rid of the Artist and Merchant slots from EVERY Ottoman building and replace them all with Minister specialists that are 22 and produce a GP that can both culture bomb and do the merchant mission. The Improvement could use the Merchant graphic and be some manner of Ministry. On top of that rather wishy washy ability, we add the unique Ottoman events which occur every time a Great Minister is born which allow us to choose some manner of policy for the city they come from.

Feb 17, 2012, 08:12 PM	#8
Thalassicus Deity Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 10,263	Would that run into any database caps? There's a restriction on the number of promotions we can add, for example... about 60. __________________ We are the Modders. CiV will be assimilated. We will enhance its biological and technological distinctiveness with our own. Resistance is futile. Communitas Expansion Pack Wiki - Discussion - News Forum Icons ~ Starting Civ5 Mods ~ Forum Tables

Feb 16, 2012, 11:43 AM	#2
Zaldron King Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 791	I'm playing my first England game in quite some time and Longbowmen are both powerful and fun. I'm still not sure if they're overpowered or not, but range 4 indirect fire longbows are terrific fun to play with.

Feb 17, 2012, 05:47 PM	#3
Sneaks Brooklyn Bum Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: NYC Posts: 1,876	Sejong is still brutally good. It is hard to lose with him. Siam is still a BEAST at culture games, and again easymode. I still find the Ottomans boring.

Feb 17, 2012, 08:22 PM	#9
Sneaks Brooklyn Bum Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: NYC Posts: 1,876	Nope. The only aesthetic issue would be in the Civ selection screen where it might choose the wrong two uniques to appear. Given that mods like CCTP have close to quadruple vanilla buildings, I am quite positive if there is a cap on buildings, we are nowhere near it.

Feb 18, 2012, 04:45 AM	#11
albie_123 King Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 814	I think having an entirely new GP and Specialist as a UA for one civ is a bit much. Maybe something more along the lines of a UU replacement for one GP, ala Genghis, would be more appropriate? Or maybe every Specialist building increases the chance of a Great Person more than usual? I do agree with black213 that having Suleiman related to Barbs would take a lot of the unique-ness away from Bismarck. More on topic, Arabia is still my favourite Civ to play, as it has been from the beginning. Great fun trying to grab resources, his desert start always makes for interesting city development, and the extra gold is always good fun to play with. Lizzie and Askia still have boring UA's in my opinion, Lizzies mainly being due to the ineptitude of the AI to use its navy well. Sejong is still easymode for science, and in my opinion, Monty's UA still completely lacks direction: The early culture gain, even when fully invested in honour, does not really aid that much with a conquest victory, which is what Monty should be geared towards.

Feb 18, 2012, 05:21 AM	#12
Thalassicus Deity Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 10,263	Denmark is more oriented towards conquest culture, since the Jelling Stones give a large boost from each city captured. Monty's bonus focuses on the units. __________________ We are the Modders. CiV will be assimilated. We will enhance its biological and technological distinctiveness with our own. Resistance is futile. Communitas Expansion Pack Wiki - Discussion - News Forum Icons ~ Starting Civ5 Mods ~ Forum Tables

Feb 18, 2012, 07:13 AM	#13
black213 King Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 956	I find it weird that Persia has only 0 votes. It's odd considering the somewhat recent big change to it's Satrap's Court and them getting a lot of votes previously. __________________ Civilization V mods recommended by me: Communitas Expansion Pack by Thalassicus *Civilization NIGHTS by markusbeutel* *PerfectWorld3 by cephalo* (map script)

Feb 18, 2012, 09:51 AM	#14
Thalassicus Deity Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 10,263	In a previous poll a lot of people said Persia was their #6 choice, so it often goes unlisted. I think I might redesign Immortals. __________________ We are the Modders. CiV will be assimilated. We will enhance its biological and technological distinctiveness with our own. Resistance is futile. Communitas Expansion Pack Wiki - Discussion - News Forum Icons ~ Starting Civ5 Mods ~ Forum Tables Last edited by Thalassicus; Feb 18, 2012 at 10:00 AM.

Feb 18, 2012, 10:02 AM	#15
Sneaks Brooklyn Bum Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: NYC Posts: 1,876	Persia also still falls sadly under the Ottoman umbrella of civs that really don't force decisions upon you as the bonuses are either passive or simply force a style of play.

Feb 18, 2012, 10:45 AM	#16
Thalassicus Deity Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 10,263	Persian workers at 3 do operate very differently than other leaders. That's the part I find most distinct. __________________ We are the Modders. CiV will be assimilated. We will enhance its biological and technological distinctiveness with our own. Resistance is futile. Communitas Expansion Pack Wiki - Discussion - News Forum Icons ~ Starting Civ5 Mods ~ Forum Tables

Feb 19, 2012, 07:22 AM	#17
mitsho Deity Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Europe, more or less Posts: 5,414	For the Ottomans, adding the sea part in a lowered form in addition to their governance bonus might be a solution and go back to vanilla. Many think, Bismarck is too strong anyways. Otherwise, if you want a payoff, you could change the specialist bonus a bit: Every specialist gives +2 to his yield (or one more than atm, i'm not sure what that is), but also costs more food or money (the ottomans were famous for their gold problems, not)? Ok, what about a combination: The ottoman specialists are better, so you want to fill every slot of them. But that's hard, because they cost gold for the Ottomans. To finance them, they need to wage constant war as their second ability gives them small amounts of money for killing units or they have to use the captured ships to pay for them. That gives the player the challenge to balance the specialist with waging war. And since the two unique units of the Ottomans are war units, and one even has a pillaging bonus, they'd fit together more. Not sure what to do about Merchants though... I don't like the Danes atm, I liked them better when their two unique units built upon each other...

Feb 19, 2012, 07:52 AM	#18
albie_123 King Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 814	I very much like the Danes at the moment, to be honest. Their unique wonder is one of the best alterations to a Civ that has been made in VEM, in my humble opinion.

Feb 20, 2012, 09:59 AM	#20
lindanealmck Chieftain Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: McKinney, Texas Posts: 63	Americans are alot of fun to play with the sight bonus, then the overpowered Musketmen with the recon promotion. If you have a barracks and an armory, then Musketmen can get the march (heal every turn) promotion immediately without Brandonburg gate. English are fun with the fast water transport for all units, the Steam Plant, and of course those deadly longbows. Both of these civs got 8 or 9 votes so far - no surprise there.

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