Arabia: Someone's idea of a sick joke?

One wave of Seljuks, fine. Another wave on top of that in your back line? Ridiculous. No wonder Arabia collapses every game, with about 50 + middle age units spawned in your back line ready to go at your stuff. Definitely needs a tune here.

I've been playing a few Arabia games my self lately and have noticed the same thing. It seems the deck is stacked quite against the Arabs with the massive Seljuk armies, potential Egyptian independence, constant small barbarian attacks in north Africa, the Mongols, and then the Ottomans. I'd be interested to know if anyone has completed an Arabian UHV with these additions? I can't come close.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11276749&postcount=151

Here's the actual specific post, but it's doable.

Overcoming the Seljuks and Egypt is the challenge behind the 3rd goal, so it should not be trivial. I'll see if I can finetune them a little.

I didn't have a lot of trouble with the Seljuks, but I knew they were coming and what was coming. As I mentioned in that thread, Camel Archers with C1 (you start with Theocracy, so definitely possible) get 80% odds against all the Seljuk units.
Chopping those forests in Syria and Israel also helps, otherwise the Heavy footmen will be 12 strength. Not conquering Persia before the Seljuks and Turkey before the Turks also helps.

I spoke too soon, managed to accomplish the first two UHV goals shortly after I made that post. I just wasn't playing near militarily enough. Now if only I can spread Islam 10% more...

one thing I dont like about this rhyes mod-mod is how contrived the game you are supposed to play is. [to a lesser extent, the ryes mod shared the same problem]. and of course, the UHVs are probably the most interesting and fun way to win.

to me, waiting until the seljuks come and blow away independent persia seems very contrived.

there should be something else you can do to stop the seljuks, besides having a force of 20 camel archers ready to go when the invisible enemy pops up. I really dont know what that something should be, but it shouldnt be a contrived solution like, "I know the future and seljuks will come at 950AD".

and 4 total stacks of armies, plus a forced capture of Sur, was a pretty huge blow. that was before the egyptians respawned [i was in process of beating them down, when this happened]. I was willing to fight the 2 stacks they had, but when the next 2 stacks spawned, I really lost heart. and then to top it off, mongol stacks spawned all over north africa next to my cities. after those stacks, mountains of byzantines, and then ottomans, for whatever reasons ignoring each other, being the best of friends, both came after me and I lost. just my experience, on Monarch mode!

Sovietof17 said:

one thing I dont like about this rhyes mod-mod is how contrived the game you are supposed to play is. [to a lesser extent, the ryes mod shared the same problem]. and of course, the UHVs are probably the most interesting and fun way to win.

to me, waiting until the seljuks come and blow away independent persia seems very contrived.

there should be something else you can do to stop the seljuks, besides having a force of 20 camel archers ready to go when the invisible enemy pops up. I really dont know what that something should be, but it shouldnt be a contrived solution like, "I know the future and seljuks will come at 950AD".

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Not trying to be antagonistic here;
I just have to pose the question.

What is your mental approach towards this game?

Are you playing mostly for role-playing?

Because a metagame awareness of scripted events is the norm in RFC & DoC.
The complaint you had about knowing the future about Seljuks can be related to Rome, China or the Meso-American civilizations then, who face similar challenges. The point of Rhye's and Fall of Civilization (for most civs) is to take your chosen civilization, and make sure they overcome the challenges and obstacles that historically were thrown their way, and help them to persevere.

"I know the future and the Seljuks will come at 950AD" has ALWAYS been part of RFC and always been part of the underlying game doctrine.

I must concur. The Seljuks are not really different from the Spanish, French and English spawning on Roman territory, for example.

RFC and DoC attempt to follow history a lot closer than most other mods, and sometimes that makes scripted events necessary. The Seljuks are there for this purpose, because the situation in the medieval middle east was hardly historical before their addition. If that feels contrived to you maybe the concept of RFC isn't right for you.

You're not limited to a certain strategy, by the way. As already said, you can for example try to prepare and crush their invading stacks or yield the Middle East and recover it later when the Seljuks wasted their strength on Byzantium.

cool ideas, thanks. I tried playing as the iranians next and got steamrolled by ottomans. not even sure how to approach winning as that civilization! i went persia->arabia->iranians->[kicked out to mali]

This goes along with my suggestion to merge the Seljuks with the Turks and have the Turks spawn at that time, as a Mongol like start. I feel like that would work a lot smoother.

Seljuk is different from Turks.
If Turks spawn at 900s or 1000s, it'll create a way-too-early Ottoman Empire.. Which Capital is less likely to be at Constantinople, etc etc.

I think the Seljuks should be playable/ unplayable not-coded AI..
IIRC, the current Seljuks is based purely on Code, right? (Not AI)
If Seljuk is AI, it won't be as strong as it is now; still surprising...

I have to be honest, the Seljuks did surprise me when I first tried Arabia. I didn't even see it coming, or even acknowledged that they were a power. Then I did my history homework, and restarted the game.

Actually, I managed to subdue their second wave in about three turns, losing some catapults and only one camel archer. I still take control of Baghdad, Tabriz (They captured it initially, but I took it back) and Konya, and I just need to regain Persia, since I did lose Merv, Qandahar and Shiraz.

The trick here is to use forced labor to whip up a massive army that stays in Baghdad until the invasion. Before the Seljuks even arrive their first wave, there has to be at least 9 camel archers, 4 catapults, a few levies, crossbowmen and a reserved great general. There's lots of food in Baghdad, and the happy bonuses from dyes, gold in Aswan and incense should allow you to whip a huge stack of doom, while keeping Baghdad happy at 8 population.

During the resistance of the invasion, I also declared war on France, and took Marseilles and Bordeaux from them (Also have Spain). France is actually collapsing, so I won't see much trouble from them. Currently, my three main issues are increasing stability (Might have to gift French cities back to France and Spain to the Moors, who are vassals.), taking back Shiraz and seeing if I could either crush an Egyptian uprising or vassalize it.

(Might have to gift French cities back to France and Spain to the Moors, who are vassals.)

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You don't want to do that. It lowers your stability. Better to raze cities than gift them.

Arabs are too easy for the human player, if anything.
Once you know to prepare for the Selyuks, it's a cakewalk for 600 AD.

Seljuks suck, I just disable them, even though I don't usually play Arabia. They just don't make sense.

Lone Wolf said:

Seljuks suck, I just disable them, even though I don't usually play Arabia. They just don't make sense.

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What exactly is not making sense for you? Their inclusion in DoC as a non-playable civ is far better mechanism than the previous incursion of barbarian Seljuks, because the barbarians have a tendency to raze too much which has gameplay implications.

The DoC Seljuks usually have the intended result of destabilising the AI Byzantines and Arabs, who otherwise would hang around in Turkey and Persia for an ahistorical length of time in the game.

And as the human player, as others have said, you can prepare for them easily enough with sufficient planning.

Disabling them outright is akin to cheating in my view.

The Arab game is one of the best in this mod, requiring a very nuanced approach for victory. My first couple of attempts were frustrating for all the reasons you list but these are the challenges of the scenario and are historical and very balanced game play wise. If your having trouble these are my suggestions:

Your first priorities are building the spiral minaret somewhere and spawning a prophet for a shrine in Mecca. Its the only way to fund your giant empire. Combine this with madrassas in your food rich cities in Egypt and Iraq, and Constantinople if you can capture it and your economy should be running. All cities in Iran, Anatolia and Balkans build nothing but camels all game and push out into Europe, Persia, and Africa. You need to create three or four Great General healers, but you'll get more then enough experience slaying barbs and spreading Islam with your camels. Then when the seljuks spawn you have twenty or thirty camels in Iran and Anatolia, with tons of upgrades and GG healers, they're really no trouble.

Your veteran horde then needs to swoop through Italy, take Rome, humble the French and swoop down upon the Spanish. Squash them and the Portugese and your done your conquest goal. If you hold Baghdad, Cairo, Constantinople, Rome, Greece and Iran, you should have no trouble with the most advanced goal. The only thing left is Islam, I usually spread by missionary to my vassals and through ob and can get 30% no problem. If you get conquerors that helps too. My games end with an all out explosion of cuirassiers expanding in all directions, through Mongolia to China, into Russia, Africa and India. You leave no garrisons behind, as you have no need to hold the land just conversion.


Arab victory is not only possible but represents one of the better experiences in thus mod. Please leave it alone.

What exactly is not making sense for you?

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That they turn the Middle East into de-facto barbarian land. All other similar "take-over" invaders like the Manchu or the Norman Conquest are not included, why the Seljuks should be? Making the Arab civilization sorely about the Caliphate is too narrow.

I've strengthened the Turkish spawn and the Turks usually get rid of Byzantium anyway.