C2C Balance Thread

I can right away state that it would help balance Deity Difficulty quite a bit by having a property like this while spacing the religion founding techs further apart would not, at least not for the Human Player/Players.
Deity usually means that a human player is far behind in the tech race by the Classical Era (whereby most religions have been founded, even if spacing them further apart). It's not unusual to see an AI found Christianity while I'm still struggling to get Monarchy, or even Writing. I might be able to catch up and get first to Andeanism (a decently late Religion) if I have a very good starting location. If not it's more likely that it's as far as Steam Power before I've caught up. Which I do unless being hammered to the ground (though that's never been a problem with Surround and Destroy and/or Barb Generals and Field Commanders active).
Basically no religions founded by human players. I can get something spread to me and utilize that, or via Conquest, but that's it.

Having a Spiritual Property which progressively makes it harder to found new religions at Deity Difficulty then means that Human Players can get their grubby little hands on one or more Holy Cities without the need for conquest. It's always possible via Conquest, of course, but balancing means for me that even if not kicking AIs behinds across the world everyone should have a chance at getting a Religion or two.

Looking further down the line I see that in games where the difficulty rather means that the Human Players are the ones founding all religions due to bouncing ahead in research it gives the AIs a chance to gain a Holy City or two.

Spacing the religions further apart doesn't do much when the amount of techs being ahead/behind surpasses 30 technologies. Still means all religions are gone by the time the up-and-comer gets to their founding technologies.

Speaking of which, have a post to make in another thread.

Cheers

BlueGenie said:

Wait, what?
As far as I know ls612 changed the underlying modifiers for the game speed but did not tinker with the handicap parts of it.

Old line in speed info:
<iTrainPercent>275</iTrainPercent>
New line in speed info:
<iTrainPercent>475</iTrainPercent>
This makes it take longer to build units, for everyone, including the AI.

Click to expand...

Increase of 57% in resources required for unit.

Old Handicap player and AI modifiers for units:
Player: <iUnitCostPercent>110</iUnitCostPercent>
AI: <iAITrainPercent>90</iAITrainPercent>
New Handicap player and AI modifiers for units:
Player: <iUnitCostPercent>110</iUnitCostPercent>
AI: <iAITrainPercent>90</iAITrainPercent>
No change for the difficulty you're at. In fact no changes to the difficulty settings for building or training at all.

Click to expand...

195 at +10% =214 makes the human player spend 63% more beakers in V22 than in V 21 to produce a clubman.

BlueGenie said:

Wait, what?
As far as I know ls612 changed the underlying modifiers for the game speed but did not tinker with the handicap parts of it.

Old line in speed info:
<iTrainPercent>275</iTrainPercent>
New line in speed info:
<iTrainPercent>475</iTrainPercent>
This makes it take longer to build units, for everyone, including the AI.

Old Handicap player and AI modifiers for units:
Player: <iUnitCostPercent>110</iUnitCostPercent>
AI: <iAITrainPercent>90</iAITrainPercent>
New Handicap player and AI modifiers for units:
Player: <iUnitCostPercent>110</iUnitCostPercent>
AI: <iAITrainPercent>90</iAITrainPercent>
No change for the difficulty you're at. In fact no changes to the difficulty settings for building or training at all.

Cheers

Click to expand...

The difference between AI build and Human build is what you were talking about first Hanny. The increase of 57% you mention is the same for Humans and AIs.

The Handicap file governs the difference between Human and AI while the Game Speed file changes costs for everyone.

Since the Handicap was not modified from v21 to v22 the difference in percent between AI build and Human build of units remains the same.
A unit that in v21 and below cost:
303 (275 *1.1) hammers for Human
248 (275*0.9) hammers for AI
which was 22.2% higher cost for Human vs. AI to build
will in v22 cost:
523 (475*1.1) hammers for Human
428 (475*0.9) hammers for AI
which is 22.2% higher cost for Human than AI to build.

As I said, the difference between Human and AI costs to build units has not changed.
Which is what you first stated that it had:

Hanny said:

Eternity speed Monarch Difficulty, clubman in V21 took 17 turns to produce, in v22 with same resources, its 24 turns, difference is a 40% increase to Human unit costs, while AI unit cost stayed the same.

Click to expand...

Hanny said:

Increase of 57% in resources required for unit.

195 at +10% =214 makes the human player spend 63% more beakers in V22 than in V 21 to produce a clubman.

Click to expand...

This is off by a few percent as 303 to 523 is 72% higher. Then again for an AI from 248 to 428 it's also 72% higher.
Like I've been saying all along: The Human Player didn't get an increase in costs while the AI player stayed at the same. Both got the same increase.

Cheers

The difference between AI build and Human build is what you were talking about first Hanny. The increase of 57% you mention is the same for Humans and AIs.

Click to expand...

I pointed out that Human player pays 40% more for the same unit.

I was pointing out the error of your post, 275 changed to 475,is not the amount of beakers to produce a unit, but the modification to the base unit cost of 71 beakers and is a 57% increase in that change. 275/475*100=57% increase from V21 to V22. Which is connected to the human player paying 40% more beakers than the AI for the same unit. AI plays at Noble, which is 40% less cost in beakers for the same unit.

The Handicap file governs the difference between Human and AI while the Game Speed file changes costs for everyone.

Since the Handicap was not modified from v21 to v22 the difference in percent between AI build and Human build of units remains the same.

Click to expand...

This is off by a few percent as 303 to 523 is 72% higher. Then again for an AI from 248 to 428 it's also 72% higher.

Click to expand...

No thats mathamaticly wrong, 248/428*100=57% higher.So is your other example.

Ill ignore the inacurate maths explantion you gave*, as the AI uses Noble, not monarch, and have explained why the Human player pays 40% more than the AI, as well as why 57% is the increase, not 72%. The player pays a units cost taken from the Unit file, the difficulty setting adds to the base cost, the speed of the game adds further turn times to that giving a full number of turns to produce.

*

Since the Handicap was not modified from v21 to v22 the difference in percent between AI build and Human build of units remains the same.
A unit that in v21 and below cost:
303 (275 *1.1) hammers for Human
248 (275*0.9) hammers for AI
which was 22.2% higher cost for Human vs. AI to build
will in v22 cost:
523 (475*1.1) hammers for Human
428 (475*0.9) hammers for AI
which is 22.2% higher cost for Human than AI to build.

Click to expand...

In this odd example, a unit in V21 costing 303, ( because every unit in the game cost 275!) at a city with 5 beakers takes 60 turns to produce, while in V22, takes 104 turns. Intrestingly thats a 57% increase in cost btw. Since the first unit aaialable in game does not cost 303, or take 60 turns to build, we know that this explantion is flawed.

Since the Handicap was not modified from v21 to v22 the difference in percent between AI build and Human build of units remains the same.

Click to expand...

Since you have bolded some words you must be drawing further attention to your many misunderstandings.

@Hanny: The ratio of AIcost to Playercost should still be the same, I did not touch it. The actual hammer difference in numbers will be different, as both numbers went up by the same percentage. If it is not that way, post a savegame here to look at as that would be a bug.

ls612 said:

@Hanny: The ratio of AIcost to Playercost should still be the same, I did not touch it.

Click to expand...

You changed the speed from 275 to 475, thats what changes the turn build times between x in V21 and y in V22.( it also changes the ratio btw as the difference between Noble default AI unit cost and human player cost at diferent levels is a varaiable, not a constant, although the ratio of all of them to the default is the same ratio, the difference between Human =Diety and default is a different ratio of unit cost than is Monarch to default) I wanted to understand/quantify what that change was, as it change/s the unit density in game for the Human player.

So nota bug, just the consequences of that change.

Edit, you dont need a save game, only to swap out the files to see that a 3 hammer city used to take :"Eternity speed Monarch Difficulty, clubman in V21 took 17 turns to produce, in v22 with same resources, its 24 turns." this 40% change, is the change you achieved. Taken with the change from 800 to 1800 for science advance, did you intend the ratio of units to tech advance to be thus?

Thank you ls612 for pointing out what I've been trying to say. *sighs*

Hanny, I just took any hammer cost to illustrate the point I was trying to make. Using the base cost increase number seemed to be the easiest as I didn't have to recalculate whatever number I took to the correct number.

My math being off? I don't know how you can say that when, to the best of my knowledge, your 248/428*100=57% calculation shows the percent 248 is of 428, when 428 is 100%.
The real math to see how much more something costs is
Cost Change Value/Old Cost Value.
Since the cost to count from is 248, adding 180 to that gives your new cost of 428, so the percent increase is then: 180/248*100=72.58.
My other example is also correct in it's math, despite what you are saying. You say it's 40% higher cost in hammers for you to build a unit compared to the AIs cost. I maintain that it's 22.2% (or more exact 22.19%) higher, by the same math:
AI cost of 428 is base, or 100%. The change to what the Human needs is 523 hammers minus AI's 428 hammers, or 95 hammer more.
95/428*100=22.19.
Costing 95 hammers more is an increase of 22%.

As for the AI always playing as Noble, well, that's a truth with modification. True enough the AI uses base values as Noble but it is also the difficulty you set for yourself that defines if the AI gets more bonuses or penalties. In this case it's a bonus of 10% less cost from base for the AI, and 10% more cost for you.

So far I've ignored your use of "beakers" but now I feel I should point out that units cost hammers, not beakers.

Please if you mean to rain down on what someone is saying get your facts and numbers right. This is just taking the piss out of me and I hate that.

Frown

BlueGenie said:

Please if you mean to rain down on what someone is saying get your facts and numbers right. This is just taking the piss out of me and I hate that.

Frown

Click to expand...

Learn what, and how, to count and it wont occur so often.

BlueGenie said:

This is off by a few percent as 303 to 523 is 72% higher. Then again for an AI from 248 to 428 it's also 72% higher.

Click to expand...

Since the cost to count from is 248, adding 180 to that gives your new cost of 428, so the percent increase is then: 180/248*100=72.58

Click to expand...

By adding a number you inveneted you mean. Rather than the actual numbers which showed you got the % wrong.

As for the AI always playing as Noble, well, that's a truth with modification. True enough the AI uses base values as Noble but it is also the difficulty you set for yourself that defines if the AI gets more bonuses or penalties. In this case it's a bonus of 10% less cost from base for the AI, and 10% more cost for you

Click to expand...

Which is a 20% change, which when added to the 22% already established, gives you 42% more cost for the human player, whic is the 40% i refered to and you disagreed yet now give the maths that comes to that 40%. You english comprehension is equal to your math btw.

Placing you on ignore, as your just too dumb. ( Unable to find a %, unable to add 22% from Difficulty change to 20% from speed change and arrive at 40%, and so deny my first post, and everyones eyes that in V21 a clubman cost of 17 turns at 3 hammers changed to 24 in V22, by Dumb i mean inumerate and unable to comprehend the written words of others, particulary when you disagree with what is written and then show math to agree with them and disagree with yourself.)
Moderator Action: Such flaming is not allowed here, as well as the troll sentence before.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Where and how do I get the attention of a moderator to tell him (Hanny) not to call people names?

Hanny, the + and - 10% are already factored into all the numbers I've stated. All. Which means the factual higher cost is still 22%. No matter what you say.

Grumbles

BlueGenie said:

Where and how do I get the attention of a moderator to tell him (Hanny) not to call people names?

Hanny, the + and - 10% are already factored into all the numbers I've stated. All. Which means the factual higher cost is still 22%. No matter what you say.

Grumbles

Click to expand...

I believe you send a PM to one of the moderators.

Can I ask a favour of someone with a comprehension of the game and the math involved in it?
It's just checking both mine and Hanny's calculations and let us both know if either or both of us are right or if the numbers work in a way none of us have written about.

Cheers

Dancing Hoskuld said:

I believe you send a PM to one of the moderators.

Click to expand...

Moderator Action: If someone observes problematic behaviour (like Hanny's flaming and trolling in his last post, which is really not suitable for this forum here), then you should hit the "report post" button (the button to the left of each post) and report the post, so that the moderators can take care of it. Because we'd really like to have a nice atmosphere here, and such uncivil behaviour does not really help to achieve this.

And now back to topic please!

Yesterday I was playing, im in the modern era and my best city, who is grank production + wealth 1 in the world (out of 100+ cities) and who is ranked 1st in the top 5 cities in the world was bribed by arabs. I actually think this is kinda ridiculous considering it only cost him about 10,000 in spy points and if I run 100% spy points I can get like 15k spy points in 1 turn.

The baseline cost for some arab cities to bribe (on immortal) is like 30-40k

Then you can of course get the -50% from preparation. This is simply not balanced since I could theoretically go spy economy for 10 or 20 turns and bribe every single one of his cities...

Keep in mind it is easy to use your hero units as spy specialists in a super spy city + maximum security prison + the um forget its name the +100% building you can build from a spy great person. I have one city that makes over 1500 spy points a turn on 0% spy commerce.

This is fine, however the bribe city + plant nuclear device etc ( with the spy modmod option) defintaley needs to be balanced more or removed.

Sgtslick said:

Yesterday I was playing, im in the modern era and my best city, who is grank production + wealth 1 in the world (out of 100+ cities) and who is ranked 1st in the top 5 cities in the world was bribed by arabs. I actually think this is kinda ridiculous considering it only cost him about 10,000 in spy points and if I run 100% spy points I can get like 15k spy points in 1 turn.

The baseline cost for some arab cities to bribe (on immortal) is like 30-40k

Then you can of course get the -50% from preparation. This is simply not balanced since I could theoretically go spy economy for 10 or 20 turns and bribe every single one of his cities...

Keep in mind it is easy to use your hero units as spy specialists in a super spy city + maximum security prison + the um forget its name the +100% building you can build from a spy great person. I have one city that makes over 1500 spy points a turn on 0% spy commerce.

This is fine, however the bribe city + plant nuclear device etc ( with the spy modmod option) defintaley needs to be balanced more or removed.

Click to expand...

Agreed - do you have a savegame of the turn the AI bribes it in?

i think i kept a copy, i've played on since then but let me see..
damn thought i had it but must have saved over it.. i think the problem is generally anyway.

Sgtslick said:

i think i kept a copy, i've played on since then but let me see..
damn thought i had it but must have saved over it.. i think the problem is generally anyway.

Click to expand...

Probably, but its very hard to see wheer the imbalance lies without an example - next time you see it please post one (I have tons of backlog to clear first anyway, so no rush)

the imbalance lies in the cost ratio.
its way too cheap..
I personally think should be 5x as much since I can bribe a city and burn it (paradrop in or have a transport ready etc) or destroy all its buildings (alt-g or whatever it is), or even gift it that turn to one of that AI's friends

its easy enough to create an example you just have a look at how much it costs to bribe a city for yourself in a game. If it seems cheap thats because it is..

In CIV4EspionageMissionInfo.xml how about just changing this
CityInsertCultureCostFactor | Makes the mission cost a certain amount based on the existing culture already in the city.

The problem is at the moment the cost is only determined by the gamespeed + the difficulty.
With a base cost of 4500

iBuyCityCostFactor A percentage that makes the mission cost different amounts, depending on the gamespeed and base mission cost. If successful, the mission will convert the city to the players team. (This tag is not used in BTS, but is fully functional).

which is 250

This means this value will only change based on how well the player can defend against espionage and how well you can execute it, and that is all.. its like saying all technologies will always cost the same throughout the game despite them becoming more and more powerful as the game progresses, and overlooking that as our civ develops our ability to research improves.. see the problem?


<iCityInsertCultureCostFactor>0</iCityInsertCultureCostFactor> so maybe increasing this is the way to go??

Isn't that just how much each tick of buying culture costs in base?

Cheers

from my understanding its how the cities current culture will affect the espionage mission cost.