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Old Apr 04, 2012, 09:29 AM   #1
NQ KatManDude
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Shift-Click-End of Turn Moves

I have just recently learned of this move, although I have found out that it isnt new to long time players.

I learned of this, in one particular game when 5 rifles "jumped" on my city after the turn ended and I could do nothing to counter the move. At the beginning of the next turn I killed 2 of the rifles before my city fell, but it seems to me at this point it is "just whoever can click fastest" with really no skill involved.

I guess one could argue that the skill came into play on the "setting up" of the rifles "jumping" on my city.

I see this like 2 boxers stepping into the ring, and as the officials head is turned and one boxer is stepping through the ropes, the other boxer punches him in the back of the head 5 or 6 times before the official gets turned back around...... Not very sportsman like, but still effective.

We have discussed this in NQ (No Quitters Group) with our members, with the larger consensus by far, feeling this is a cheap tactic. We have decided that in NQ Games we will not use this move.

I am just curious, on what others in the civ community, think about this move. Whether you are for or against it, I would like to hear your thoughts and opinions.
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Old Apr 04, 2012, 11:51 AM   #2
Tabarnak
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Best way to counter this is to place units in front of where they should land but it's not always easy. But i agree that it should not exist i don't know why they coded this move. You can wait until 10 sec of end of turn and fast click units in ennemy's territory but at least you can't have time to move all your 10 units(maybe 3-4 max) and let the other players to do some damage.

Maybe they should bring a 8 sec of waiting like in civ4?

If you ban this i will follow rules. Rules are what they serve for. You like or you don't like. You don't like rule, don't play that's all. Do what u want buddy.
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Old Apr 04, 2012, 11:53 AM   #3
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I can see how you would see the move as cheap, since you did not know it was possible and thus could not anticipate it!

A further explanatory note on shift-queuing. To queue a move for the end of turn: hold down the shift key while issuing a legal move (including attacks) and it will occur at the end of the turn if the move is still legal. This means that other moves (by you or others and including other shift moves) may disrupt and cancel your shift move(s), so don't rely on them if the movement is absolutely critical.

I have four primary objections to NQ’s ban on shift-moves.

1) The shift move is a part of the game. I would rather a group like NQ teach its members how to use it so that everyone can get better at this aspect of the game (both in attacks and how to defend against such moves).

2) The shift moves can save time. There are often tactical situations where you want to wait to do a move at the end of turn. If you don't use shift-queue, you waste everyone’s time waiting for the timer to timeout.

3) The shift move does not require fast clicking. For better or worse, fast clicking is critical in combat. If you have a slow connection or PC, you will lose critical battles. Everyone however can shift-queue and if used properly shift-queuing can offset some of the disadvantages of always losing out on “click-fests”.

4) The no shift move rule is difficult to enforce in a fair manner. The supreme rule in NQ is no quitting. If someone breaks this rule it is easy to verify as all players see the person disconnect. Whereas, if someone uses a shift-queue, usually only 1 player sees anything. This results in a single person accuses another (correctly or incorrectly) of shift-moving.

The solution I propose is that at the start of every NQ game, someone explains what and how shift-moves work. Then all players can make a gentleman’s agreement (non-gender specific of course) as to whether or not all players will abstain from using shift-queuing. This will raises awareness of what is apparently a little known feature of the game. And will clarify for everyone from that start what the rules are.

We all love civ5, let’s play it to the fullest!

Education is the key to a long-term game.

CIV on NQ
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Old Apr 04, 2012, 12:53 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimEval View Post
3) The shift move does not require fast clicking. For better or worse, fast clicking is critical in combat. If you have a slow connection or PC, you will lose critical battles. Everyone however can shift-queue and if used properly shift-queuing can offset some of the disadvantages of always losing out on “click-fests”.
This!
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Old Apr 04, 2012, 12:57 PM   #5
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Good post Prim. I agree with you.

My post was mean to be ''passive'' but your ''active'' post shows how it's possible to include this special move without hurting everyone by simply put this knowledge by any sort of medias.

Some thoughts : These moves are somewhat rare. It's almost only useful when you initially enter ennemy's territory. Good only for offense mode and probably only once. It can, however, be a large issue of a current game(difference between a win or loss). If everyone is awared of this move, it will, for sure, reduce potential rapes
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Old Apr 04, 2012, 09:10 PM   #6
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Very good post by Prim, if we would be voting I would vote to allow the shift moves.

Tabarnak: there's a lot more application for it. For example, in early game when you escort a settler with a warrior, you can move with warrior first, and shift-move the settler onto the warrior. The benefit from this is that if you run into someone, they will typicly see the warrior, not the settler (until next turn). So they will behave differently and are less likely to block you from a good city spot.

Another example: sometimes I shift-click units within my borders, so that if nothing unusual happens, they will move at the end of the turn. If the situation changes, say, enemy units move near my borders during the turn, I can cancel the shift-move and react. If I had moved the units at the beginning of the turn I would be at a disadvantage since I wouldn't have any movement points left.
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Old Apr 05, 2012, 04:52 AM   #7
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I see that we might have been a bit quick to ban the move.

I suggest to change to rule to: 12) Whether to allow double moves must be agreed by a vote before each game.

But default settings should still be not to allow it, I think. In no turn based strategy game on earth should a player be allowed to make 2 consecutive moves.

Also in case of a 3 vs 3, or 4 vs 4 vote (deadlock) I think that it should not be allowed.

I also agree with CIV that it might be hard to enforce.

But before changing it, I really want to hear what the rest of the NQ community thinks. Please join in on this conversation!!!!
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Old Apr 05, 2012, 09:07 AM   #8
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We at NQ will teach

We at NQ have started educating people about SHIFT MOVE..so this rule is kinda new..We at NQ will be teaching it to many members as we can and then the rule will maybe change..I hope the league community will also bring some discussions about this move.

My exp is: i known of the move a long time now,and i never use it. I think it s kinda unfair to use .. But if everybody knows of it will se how it would be..

So my quisteion is do all leaguers use it? Do you guys to ganna educate people about it??

CAUNCK?

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Old Apr 05, 2012, 10:11 AM   #9
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Im curious what exactly is this move? Does it

a) let you queue unit moves into the 'end of turn' phase that will then be executed in the 'end of turn'-step of the same turn, allowing you to get a free 'move in' or

b) allow you to queue up moves for units that already have acted that will then be executed right at the start of the next turn or

c) a combination of both allowing you to move at end of turn and automatically act at the start of next turn.
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Old Apr 05, 2012, 10:19 AM   #10
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TheHanzou, holding shift when issuing a normal order, delays that order untill the end of turn. There is no free move. You CANNOT queue moves to happen automatically at the start of the next turn.
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Old Apr 05, 2012, 02:49 PM   #11
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I dont like its existence a lot - automoving armies feel like "ai".
Its not as op as people make it to be - still it pretty dumb, espacially as it can even involve fights.

Primeval got some good points.

Well I allways feel like getting outmoved is only thing what might make me loose games sometimes - so well maybe its ok
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Old Apr 05, 2012, 07:58 PM   #12
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wow tommynt

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommynt View Post
I dont like its existence a lot - automoving armies feel like "ai".
Its not as op as people make it to be - still it pretty dumb, espacially as it can even involve fights.

Primeval got some good points.

Well I allways feel like getting outmoved is only thing what might make me loose games sometimes - so well maybe its ok
SO COOL TO AGREE with you tommynt..i always felt like AI does the play if you use shift---...only time iam using it is when settler and warrior need to move at end turn..
NICE TOMMYt

WE at NQ still want to know what players at league means about shift move..and of course NQs

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Old Apr 05, 2012, 08:44 PM   #13
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I only heard about this 'move' recently, and never really knew it existed till reading this thread, and I've played Civ 5 MP since day one. I'm pretty sure, Tab, you used this on me in our last game? I seem to remember a whole bunch of infantry invading me all at once. I was pretty surprised--and there was nothing I could do about it.
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Old Apr 06, 2012, 01:30 AM   #14
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That's right Onan. Everything is recorded.
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Old Apr 06, 2012, 03:33 AM   #15
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The biggest problem here is not the surprise, that a player should be prepared for. The problem is how an artillery based defensive position is stripped of every possibility to bombard the first turn of attack. I will say this is an exploit indeed, reducing the use of artillery alot in defence.
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Old Apr 06, 2012, 05:01 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanzou View Post
Im curious what exactly is this move? Does it

a) let you queue unit moves into the 'end of turn' phase that will then be executed in the 'end of turn'-step of the same turn, allowing you to get a free 'move in' or

b) allow you to queue up moves for units that already have acted that will then be executed right at the start of the next turn or

c) a combination of both allowing you to move at end of turn and automatically act at the start of next turn.
a) The queued unit moves after everybody else has moved, as long as it has not moved that turn already.

b) a unit that has already completed all its moves cannot be shift-clicked. However, if you move 1 tile, you can use shift-click to move the other tile.

c) it does not allow you to instantly move at the beginning of the next turn, BUT because you are expecting it, often you can move first from the surprise element.

RELOADING SCREEN - from my observation (I can't prove this) it appears that excessive shift-click with lots of units causes the reloading screen - especially if several players shift-click to the same tiles!

OPINION: Shift-clicking for combat doesn't feel like it goes with "the spirit of the game" to me, same with double-moving. I don't believe the developers intended the way it is used now. I think the simple fix would be "you cant move for the 1st 10 seconds of next turn if you moved in the last 10 seconds of this turn." This would take all of the fangs out of the shift click, for if 6 units suddenly appears next you, you would have 10 seconds to get all of your attacks in.

That all being said... I will play games where shift-click is banned or allowed.
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Old Apr 06, 2012, 05:15 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverfuturist View Post
a) The queued unit moves after everybody else has moved, as long as it has not moved that turn already.

b) a unit that has already completed all its moves cannot be shift-clicked. However, if you move 1 tile, you can use shift-click to move the other tile.

c) it does not allow you to instantly move at the beginning of the next turn, BUT because you are expecting it, often you can move first from the surprise element.

RELOADING SCREEN - from my observation (I can't prove this) it appears that excessive shift-click with lots of units causes the reloading screen - especially if several players shift-click to the same tiles!

OPINION: Shift-clicking for combat doesn't feel like it goes with "the spirit of the game" to me, same with double-moving. I don't believe the developers intended the way it is used now. I think the simple fix would be "you cant move for the 1st 10 seconds of next turn if you moved in the last 10 seconds of this turn." This would take all of the fangs out of the shift click, for if 6 units suddenly appears next you, you would have 10 seconds to get all of your attacks in.

That all being said... I will play games where shift-click is banned or allowed.

nice to hear leaguers dony like the shift move
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Old Apr 06, 2012, 05:20 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverfuturist View Post
I think the simple fix would be "you cant move for the 1st 10 seconds of next turn if you moved in the last 10 seconds of this turn."
I think this would be good if applied by the developers. Currently that is the NQ rule pretty much, I quote: "12) Double move with shift is NOT allowed." So as it stands now, a single move with shift is allowed. In a sportsmanship-like game it's obvious what is a double move and what's not... but when the games get competetive you are going to have problems with people accusing each other and disagreeing what constitutes an illegal move.

What if someone moves 8 seconds after the turn? It's just impossible to enforce if it's not coded into the game.
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Old Apr 06, 2012, 05:48 AM   #19
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OK boys and girls.

12) Whether to ALLOW double moves with SHIFT must be AGREED by a VOTE before each game.

This is the new NQ rule.

Hopefully this way we can please all the different NQ players; experts and beginners alike

That being said, I despise the end of turn double move with shift. I would vote against it 100 % of the times.

GG all

P.S. It would be very nice if the most active NQ players here on CFC would help spread the word
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Old Apr 06, 2012, 06:53 AM   #20
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Thanks for all the replies...very interesting to hear others opinions. Im like Silverfuturists, I will play with or without, but I will vote NO everytime.

I think the same as some others....Ranged units for defense just became less effective, and in my original example if i had moved some units to block the rifles, my cannons are ineffective until my "blocking: units are dead and out of the way.

I dont think the developers meant for this move to be used in this manner, I agree with the statement that it seems more like an exploit instead of a legit move.

I will also say if all people are aware of the move it will still be a fair game because all are capable of doing the same thing.

Wars could really turn into a crap shoot if both sides warring are doing this at same time......

Just my opinion, but i still feel it is a cheap move.......
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