Nobles' Club XCVI: Brennus of the Celts

dalamb

dalamb

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The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Brennus of Celtia, whom we last played in NC VI; we last played the Celts under Boudica in NC LIX. The Celts start with Hunting and Mysticism.
Brennus.jpg
  • Traits: Brennus is Charismatic and Spiritual. CHA means +1 :) (+1 more with a monument), which lets your cities expand faster sooner. It also reduces the XP for promotions by 25%, meaning your units improve faster. SPI means faster temples, but its chief benefit is no anarchy when switching civics. This can be a diplomatic trait: it lets you yield to AI demands for civic and religion switches, gaining you improved relations, while allowing you to change back easily five turns later.
  • The UB: The Dun, a Wall that gives a free Guerilla I promotion to units built in the city; if you can build most of your cities on hills, archers will be especially good defenders. Unfortunately this doesn't synthesize with the UU, which also gets Guerilla I.
    CeltiaDun.jpg

  • The UU: The Gallic Warrior, a Swordsman with Guerilla I; with Guerilla II only 2 XP away, this unit has an advantage on hilly maps.
    CeltiaGallicWarrior.jpg
And the start:
start.jpg

This is a small map; you might want to read the spoiler.
Spoiler map details :
Highlands, small, 2 extra AI (total 6), other options defaulted. Highland maps have little water, meaning that there is a lot higher chance that some AI will have so much land into which to expand unopposed that they run away with the game at higher difficulties. With a small map and 1-2 extra AI, there is about as much land per civilization as on normal maps.
Spoiler edits :
Moved us 1S to the river and made sure iron (for the UU) was reasonably nearby.
Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:
There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do suggest that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards. You can post as often as you like; here's one suggestion:
  • 4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
  • 1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
  • 500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
  • 1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other
  • continent if applicable, etc)
  • 1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
  • End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)
This is just a guideline. If you're trying to improve your game, then posting more frequent updates, in as much detail as you can manage, is the best way to get suggestions from other players. If you come to what seems like a major decision and you want some advice, post an update, regardless of what game-year it is.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps in the early days of the series, and all of you for playing.
Click to expand...
The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 96 Brennus Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Noble. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

  1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
  2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
  3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
  4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
  5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
  6. Exit the worldbuilder.
  7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
Spoiler huts and events :
Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.
 

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Don't forget, again, that a real advantage of Gallic Warriors is that they can be built with copper. Probably won't matter on this map if we've got iron nearby, but on a non-Highlands map that's probably their biggest advantage.

I like Brennus's traits a lot, so I'll probably give this one a go.
 
Seeing as I just finished my current game and I suggested the map, I think I'll give this one a shot. But I just won my first game on noble, so any advice, suggestions, etc., would be greatly appreciated. Here are my thoughts on the information so far:

It looks like we're on the far western edge of the map, can't tell if it's north or south. I'm guessing it's the southwest corner. So I'm thinking some rapid expansion and/or Gallic warrior rushing will be necessary to keep from getting boxed in. Two deer isn't much food, but settling in place usually isn't a bad idea. The other possibility would be 1 NE. It would make use of the otherwise useless ice tile and save a forest. On the other hand it picks up at least 1 (probably 2) peaks and would lose two grass tiles. The ice could also hide a resource seems its unusual to have ice in the BFC of the capital. I'll move the scout 1 NE before deciding but am leaning toward settling in place.

Tech wise the good thing with two deer and starting with hunting is I won't need to research any worker techs before going mining and bronzeworking to find the copper and see if we can get those gallic warriors online (along with chopping and whipping). After that wheel, pottery, masonry, and archery are all possibilities depending on how the situation has unfolded.

For my builds I'll probably start with a worker then a warrior or two. After that maybe chop a settler if the scout has turned up a good location. Otherwise a granary or barracks might be in order.
 
Haven't done a BTS game in the while (Civ V being my major preoccupation), but when I saw that there was a new NC conviently up today I decided I could use the coaching. I'm mainly worrying about accidentally transferring Civ V attitudes and gambits to BTS when they probably will fail miserably. I'm confident I could pull off a noble's game though!

---Beginning - Turn 50 (1000 BC) ---

Starting tech path I decided there was one of two options: Religion/REXing, and Gallic Rush. I chose the latter since the former seemed too hard to run properly getting back into the swing of things.

Spoiler :

Mining > BW > Ag > Wheel > Pottery > IW > Writing > Alphabet (currently researching)
I'll be targeting Charles for the rush. Debating on getting AH for the sheep at Vienne, but I'll probably just trade for it later using Alpha.


Hindsight sure is a worthless thing. I was still indecisive about choosing a rexing strategy or rush, so decided to split it down the middle! I apparently just had to have granaries, even though it set back my rush a good ten turns probably. I set up Vienne to the south one turn after my neighbor had his second city up, and focused on getting the techs and chopping some Gallics.

I currently have 4 Gallics made, and another coming next turn. My capital's producing a lot of hammers, churning out one every couple turns (it helps that I'm playing on quick). I feel that I'm a little late for this rush to be effective... He has three cities up already, and I'm really going to need to get into gear before he founds more guarded by PRO-archers. So any thoughts? Other than getting this rush started late, what should I have done/do next? Your input is greatly appreciated.

Bibracte:
Spoiler :

Bibracte_Turn50.jpg


Vienne:
Spoiler :

Vienne_Turn50.jpg

 
Looks like a tough map. My tendency is to build henge.
 
Marathon/Normal Speed/No Huts or Events/To 375 BC/Way too much creative writing because I'm bored:

Spoiler :
The history of the war-chief Brennus's subjugation of the Highlands begins very simply, in the snowy reaches of the borderlands. The earliest settlement of Clan Bibracte dates back to 4000 B.C., and the immortal Brennus--All-Father of the Clan--sought to lead his people from obscurity to greatness.

Early exploration of the hilly country was harsh. Brennus's scouts were harried by beasts and barbaric warriors who owed allegiance to no chief, and the mountainous lands proved labyrinthine to Celtic explorers. It was from these explorations that Brennus learned of the neighboring tribes, the French and the Holy Romans. The Holy Romans were prelates of a strange Buddhist faith, and their vainglorious leader Charlemagne dwelt in a fabulous tent adorned with riches and fine stone.

Clan Vienne laid down roots to the south of Bibracte, seeking to draw in the herds of sheep to the west. Though the growing Celtic family all owed allegiance to the charismatic Brennus, the chief knew in his heart that only a show of splendor to match that of Charlemagne could unite his people behind him. The construction of the Sacred Circle in the city of Bibracte--Stonehenge--united all of the Celtic people under his banner and propelled the new families of Clan Tolosa to the east under Brennus's banner.

The earliest war against the Holy Roman Tribe was a mere skirmish. Neglecting the development of food, Brennus had instead insisted that his people seek metallurgical knowledge, mastering bronze and iron before turning their attentions to cart-making, herding, and farming. While Charlemagne's archers were a potent force, Brennus's Gallic Warriors mastered the hilly terrain, descending on and capturing the settlement at Prague. A quick cessation of arms allowed Brennus's forces to regroup and grow their number.

A wise woman of the Sacred Circle--one Sojourner Truth--rose to prominence in this period. She had studied the Buddhist ways of the south and made a grim bargain with Brennus. She could bring the faith under his control if she would be allowed to march to war alongside his armies.

NCBrennus_01.png


Brennus agreed to her gambit, and the war of annihilation against the Holy Romans began in earnest.

Charlemagne's longhouse at Aachen was soon captured, sacked, and raided. Sojourner Truth herself entered the city and healed the wounds of a Gallic Warrior, much to the awe of the Holy Roman clans. She was set as a prophet of the Buddhist faith, and Aachen's Mahabodhi--where the Buddha was said to be born reincarnate in the body of a woman--was built in her honor.

In 375 BC, the Gallic Warriors of Celtia had descended on and captured Vienna and Nuremberg. Charlemagne's settlements were few and far between, but it would be no time at all before they were captured and the Holy Roman tribes were assimilated under Brennus's banner.
 
Just getting started back with Civ 4 after taking a long hiatus from the game. I've been practicing rush strategies, but I tend to find the game a little too easy on Prince and a little too difficult on Monarch, so I keep either quitting mid-game because it's in the boring inevitable phase or quitting mid-game because it gets to the point where I need to micro-manage every aspect to keep my head above water.

Eh, I want to just have fun and try for a Conquest win. Gonna play at Prince. :D

Opening thoughts: Settle in place, worker first, then gear up for war. Hoping to pick off another capital early.
 
I played to 725 BC.

Spoiler :
tl;dr version: Had an early worker steal and pillage war with Toku. Been trying to escort the worker home with a scout, but I doubt the two of them will survive. I have 3 cities now, and building up an army of Gallic Warriors to take Paris. Just got open borders with them to check them out. They have a hill and a wall, but only an archer and warrior defending them. And no second city. Bad luck with barbs early? They don't have any wonders or religions either. Weird.

Spoiler :
attachment.php



Spoiler :
Settled in place in my glorious capital of Turtles, henceforth named Bibracte for some reason. Bah! I sent Turtlescout north and found a tribal village. They taught my people how to recognize horses when we see them - a useful skill!

BC 3750 - discovered a pass through the Storm Peaks.

BC 3650 - After defeating a lion, and pausing to heal, Turtlescout meets Louis the Poofyhair. We hope to be able to war with him someday!

BC 3425 - I have met Suleiman and discovered Paris. I realize that Turtlescout seems to be going directly southeast across the map, which is not exactly the best scouting strategy, but he claims he's forced that way by the many peaks and the desiree to always stop in the woods. Bah!

BC 3325 - Southeast of Paris, Turtlescout finds another village. They give him a map which tells him of a land known as Japan. We have heard stories of these Japanese - that they are unfriendly and rarely open their borders. I instruct Turtlescout not to go out of his way to seek a meeting with them.

BC 3225 - Turtlescout flees from a bear, forced to retrace some of his route. We have discovered Bronze Working, copper, and Slavery. Huzzah for lack of freedom!

BC 2825 - We have discovered the Ottoman lands, and our researchers have made a technological breakthrough on Masonry!

BC 2675 - A tribal village southwest of Paris gave us a warrior. Surely this is a sign that paris must be ours. We have also discovered Charlemagne's lands, but he may be difficult to fight before we have learned more.

BC 2125 - My warriors encountered a worker in Japanese lands. Surely this is a sign we must go to war! (Worker steal and pillaging. The warrior has Woodsman 2 so this lets him run amok! It's also a good way to see the inside of Toku's lands, since he never opens his borders.

BC 725 - Finally got writing and opened borders with Louis. He still only has one city, no wnders, and hardly any soldiers. I have no idea what he's been doing. Going to stop here and plan my war to take Paris tomorrow.

 

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Monarch/No huts or Events/Normal Speed

Tried something with the UU and failed miserably. Forget it exists and try again...

1946 conquest
Spoiler :

I didn't really feel like settling many spots as most of the surrounding land sucks and I couldn't beat Charlemegne to the south. , and I see bronze and a lot of production, so whatever. Used them to build henge, GW, Oracle (Metal casting), and mids. Of course the game constantly gives me spies anyways because it hates me. I only have 2 cities at 400 BC but it's fine. With forges in both of them, I spit out a bunch of units, headed to construction and tossed a bunch of crap at Burger King. Meanwhile Monty was attacking Mansa all game so the tech pace blew.

I traded for feudalism for Mansa, and capped Charle. Louis is now massively ahead of me in tech but has crap for army and no feudalism for some reason. Bribed Memhed on it too. He did manage to eventually pull out a crossbow or two but catapults crapped on it all the same, and I had LBs to stop the x-bows. He caps but is still ahead of me in tech. I pick up Philio and Machinery from him so I can beat everyone (slowly to lib)

Monty makes a most interesting civics change during a war...
Civ4ScreenShot0068-2.jpg


I spend most of the game broke, so I plastered cottages and windmills everywhere. For some reason the governor thinks that stagnating cities to run spies is a cool thing so I had him executed.

Memhed attacks me for some reason just as I get rifles, but Louis is a fine shield and loses cities. It's ok though as he actually passed the breakaway threshold so that helped keep him down. I decide to eat away at Memhed's peacevassal, Tokugawa, before taking peace. I take peace, and regroup with more cannons to take him out as well. With some settled GGs in the capital, combat 4 guys out of the gate were pretty damned cool.

Meanwhile, the only people left are Monty and Mansa. Monty is defeated with infantry, and apparently Mansa turned his slider off a while back to go culture. Smart... sadly, a few dozen turns before he goes legendary...

Civ4ScreenShot0070-3.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0073-2.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0074-2.jpg


I also used a GE to rush Chicken Pizza. I don't know why. :S
 

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cain3456 said:
Do I have to do anything special in WB for Prince level?
Click to expand...

No, just pick the noble save. The AI doesn't get archers until monarch.
 
Going to give this game a good crack! I posted in a couple of month old thread but no-one seemed to reply (probably because it was an old game) so hopefully if I post in this up to date game there will be some feedback :)

Here's my thoughts pre-game.

4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
UU and UB - Gallic Warrior and Dun. Without even looking at the map it would make sense to build cities on a hill (if it seems suitable) and protect cities with Gallic Warriors as they get hill defense. Also neat if there's no iron nearby but copper I can still build Swordsmen (Gallic Warriors) unlike other civs. Cool! They don't really seem to be the best UU/UB combo but we'll see what happens.

Questions -

If I build the Dun in a city (which gives the Guerilla I promotion for new units built) and then build a Gallic Warrior do I get an instant free or partial upgrade to Guerilla II? Or does nothing happen since the GW starts with Guerilla I promotion?

The civilopedia doesn't seem to indicate that Melee units are able to get Guerilla I promotion Recon, Archery and Gun Powder units can. Yet Guerilla II promotion is available to Melee units (I'm not sure which ones though). I'm a bit confused here. Does that mean Guerilla I is a Gallic Warrior only promotion. How do other Melee units bypass Guerilla I to get to Guerilla II if no melee unit can get Guerilla I?

Highlands map - Having a look at this map guide it seems that there are lots of mountains (the useless tiles, sorry if I get mountains/hills mixed up). Does this mean that there will be a lot of hills in this type of map as well (for mining) or does Highlands map just mean lots of mountains and not necessarily meaning lots of hills as well?
With this style of map fishing and sailing are pretty much useless right? Trade via rivers might be somewhat useful but I could always connect cities by roads so thinking that I won't ever need to get these technologies - am I right in thinking this?

Traits - Charasmatic and Spiritual. Monuments in all cities, even capital for extra happiness and border pops. Will be able to grow cities larger than normal due to 2 additional happiness. Love Spiritual so I can change civics without anarchy as I tend to change my mind/switch often.

The start - It appears that we're right on the edge of the map due to the straight line to the left and so not a global map. Couple of deers around for food. Snowy, tundra, yukky. Thinking we're at the top left of the map given it seems grassy to the south.

I'm wondering why the deer tiles aren't producing any commerce next to a river. Is it because of the forest?
Contemplating moving the settler 1N to get access to the deer earlier but this will be my capital so borders should pop in 5 turns (I think) so will probably just settle in place.

I have no idea where to move my scout. I'm 90% sure I'm going to SIP so moving the scout 1NE on the hill to see more of the land up there seems more benefical to me then moving south. So I'll do that.

Starting Techs - Will go Mining > BW for copper for UU and chopping of the mass forest and slavery. Will see what my scout finds before I decide on techs after that.

Granaries would be good given I can pump cities growth up higher. I get the idea of Granaries but I don't know the math behind and it gets all crazy when you add in slavery. Is there a resource you all know of that explains Granaries/Slavery math for dummies. Would love to really understand it. At the moment I build granaries because I know it will grow faster. That's it.

Let the games begin!

Oh and I'll be playing Noble/Normal/No huts save.
 
To answer a bunch of your questions at once:
-Dun doesn't help Gallic Warrior.
-Gallic Warrior getting the Guerrilla line is unique as a melee unit, and they keep it when upgraded later on to maces and such. It's similar to Samurai and the Drill line.
-Forests prevent riverside commerce (see also riverside forested plains/grass).

Granary whip math confuses me as well, which probably explains why I'm not interested in going past Monarch.

Hope that helps!
 
4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)


Spoilers up to 975BC below
(how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)

Image heavy! I resized them so they shouldn't be as big.

Spoiler :


Tech/Build paths:

Mining > BW as per original plan

Early Build order capital:
worker - warior - warior - settler
Reasoning: small map, close opponenent and they can get settlers 50% quicker so I need my 2nd city ASAP. No barb threats either.

Then tech:
Wheel > Agri > Pottery > AH
Wheel for roads to settle faster and need it for pottery. No point getting AH quicker as I can't pasture the sheep until I have my 2nd city and border popped.

IW > Writing > Maths (haven't got maths yet)
IW for UU, heading towards Maths to really benefit from chopping forests which I haven't done a lot of yet.

AIs met:

Met Louis at 3560BC warrior coming from the SW. He's a culture freak based on his UB and traits, could be dangerous in gaining terrirory. Might need to take him out.

Met Charlemagne at 3360BC. DANGEROUS war mongering sounding civ but also defensive. Has an awesome UU luckily can't be utilised until engineering. Can see his borders to the south. He's now my no1 threat I think.

Stopped taking notes of others I met but I've met them all now bar 1 I think.
Lois, Charlemagne, Mansa Munsa, Suleiman and Tokugawa (does he ever want to open borders with you?)

Notes, pictures and more questions!

Buddihsm and Hinduism been early one turn after the other. Not sure what to make of this?

Go straight to slavery due to traits to get it right away

Confused on how the deer is connected to my city when I don't have sailing? Does the trade via river thing only apply to trade with other civs and you can always get recourses by river without the tech?

Build first camp on deer on hill (or should I have used the flatland deer upgrade first for extra food as opposed to extra hammer?)

Start on next deer on flatland then will chop and make mine on the riverside plains hill for the added commerce

1redwhite.jpg


What do you think of city placement ideas? I'm thinking the white one I want to get ASAP for the wine and pigs and block off charlemagne a bit. No huts though = no early gold so it'll cost me in beakers to expand that far away.
Alternatively I could go for the red city for the sheep and then if the romans build in my white city spot I can always attack and capture it. So now I'm thinking the red city spot. I can't make up my mind can I. Little help?? :)

Leaning towards red placement (should i build where I've plotted or on the grass hill 1N?) it's closer to capital so will start production earlier.


3treasury.jpg



What does x gold added to treasury mean with bug mod if I whip?


When does a city get upset about no defense? whenever there's noone there or at a certain population?


How does the amount of hammers you get from a chop work towards a city? closeness?

2redwhiteyellow.jpg


Building new worker in capital which I'll use to connect the 2 cities then might build another settler or is it too early? Thinking I'll build in the yellow plotted position as it's closer and won't cost so much it's also connected via river to capital

4stolemyspot.jpg


Romans borders just expanded so they've obviously build another city so won't be getting that pig city. Perhaps I should have gone for that to begin with?

I fear getting boxed in now, not much else good land around

5northspot.jpg


That could be a possible city location (orange north) commerce city. Thoughts?

6iseefrench.jpg


Can see the french borders, building settler now to get the city to the east

If you start building something then switch how long do the hammers last in the item you swich from? eg build granary for 1 turn then switch to a worker in my new city, how long will the hammers last in that granary?

Change espionage (I don't know a great deal about this, only just swiched from vanilla to BTS) so I target roman and french as I don't know where mansa is so he won't be a threat.

Going IW next for UU.

Now I'm thinking maybe going for Stonehenge would be a good idea to make use of happy trait and save turns later on when capturing cities. Can get it in 11 turns if i stagnate growth in capital. Going to go for it! Do you think this is a good idea?

7horsechangeplans.jpg


Dilemma now that horses have shown up. Thinking of building a city where the computer is suggesting and I can then build another city NE of the sheep. Thoughts?

Rushed worker - good idea? had 5 turns left but borders about to expand and want to pasture that sheep ASAP

Obviously Vienne isn't connected to a river (i thought it might be) need to road it up!

Got Stonehenge! Really happy with that. Getting a granary now then probably barracks then start UU rushing. Good idea?

Going to go writing then mathematics because of all the forest to chop out = more hammers.. good idea?

Can rush granary so I did.

10currentposition975bc.jpg


Am I building too many cities? My commerce is going to take a hit for now but I should be able to bounce back once I get cottages in.

8whysoserious.jpg


9friendsandfoes.jpg


Should i open borders with everyone? Thinking open borders with everyone but mansa munsa as 2 people are unhappy/furious with him.
Does it matter if i open borders with mansa musa given that french are furious?


I'm a bit confused as to where to build farms/cottages on my land. Any ideas here?






P.S.
Thanks for your reply Oz-Man and thanks for the image tips Lymond :)

Saves below!
 

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Joe - Use an image host site like Imageshack or Imgur.
 
I had intended to play in smaller sets and post more with screenshots and such, but I got caught up in the game and ended up playing well into the ADs. Oh well, maybe next one. The lack of commerce and attendant slow tech rate has been killing me. The game certainly isn't lost, but it's not anywhere near where I was hoping to be. Details below:

Spoiler :
I started out as I said I was settled in place went mining followed by bronzeworking. Builds were worker, warrior, warrior, worker. Then I chopped a monument to get the copper earlier and went for a settler. Had met Charlemagne and Louis by this time. Settled near the sheep to the east. Really wanted the double pig spot to the south but Charlemagne had already claimed one of the pigs.

After bronzeworking, ironworking would have taken forever (27 turns) so went with animal husbandry for the sheep in the second city then agriculture (mostly as the prerequisite for pottery) and pottery. Then masonry for the dun and archery just in case. About that time realized that even though I didn't need iron for the Gallic I did need ironworking so researched that even though it was still a huge research time even with a few cottages. Built a dun and barracks in the capital, about that time copper got hooked up and I started cranking out axes and the gallic warriors once iron working was in. The second city built a monument, worker, barracks and then a settler.

Settled the third city near the horses and pig. By this time Charlemagne was up to something like 5 cities. At this point research had gone from ironworking to writing, alphabet, currency, and aesthetics for trade bait. I managed to backfill most of the religous techs along with horseback riding and some other small techs. Louis and Mansa were my main trading partners. Louis to keep him happy and from backstabbing me and Mansa as he is the best techer of the group. By this time I had a stack of 15-20 axes/gallics and decided to declare on Charlemagne somewhere around turn 100. That was way later than I wanted but he was expanding like crazy and in the lead and would become unstoppable if I didn't do something. His garrison II drill archers were intimidating, but amazingly I only lost 2 or 3 units per city. I took two of his cities but then he hooked up iron and his capital had a couple axes/swords in addition to the two archers. An attempt to take the mine with some chariots failed, so rather than fight a bloody battle that might leave me exposed I extorted meditation and all the gold he had for peace.

Meanwhile I went for machinery for the catapults. Picked up engineering and code of laws too. Started cottaging whatever grassland I could and building courthouses. Economy is still shaky though. Whipped/chopped a library in my second city and ran two scientists at size 4 to try and bolster my sad tech rate. It still sucks though. Eventually got a great scientist and used it for an academy in Nuremburg near the southern sheep. It had the best grassland so I figured to make it my science city. Later whipped a library and then chopped the great library into that city. Eventually settled a fourth city near the northern deer/iron.

I started building cats as soon as I got machinery alternated cat/melee unit in the capital while the other cities alternated unit/building. Techs during this period including literature and philosophy. I managed to trade for civil service and calendar. Once I had about 10 or so catapults I reopened the war with Charlemagne. I took his capital without much trouble lost a cat and an axe, but the rest was good. He's got cats too now, but as long as he doesn't get landsknechts or longbows, I think I'll be OK. I figure I need to wipe him out and then recover the economy and go for space. Vassaling would be an option if he gets some strong defensive units, but would make the homeland sickness a pain. I think diplomatic is out as the situation has been a mess with constant wars. Louis and Mansa have started to dislike each other and everyone has been fighting with Mansa.
View attachment NC 96 Brennus BC-0375.CivBeyondSwordSave
View attachment NC 96 Brennus AD-1330.CivBeyondSwordSave
 
General note: Trees outside your cities' BFC can easily be chopped after you run out of forests near your cities since they may produce less hammers, but they don't really benefit you. In fact they benefit your enemies more since they can use it for defense.

@joedoe21
Spoiler :

You should start improving the land in your capital with farms so you can take advantage of the happy cap. Also, you should chop a library in either sheep city and run some scientists from it. City placement looks good, and I would probably go for alphabet instead of math unless you plan to do something grand with math like go construction. For here, I recommend Alphabet ---> Currency. Alphabet lets you trade techs and build research so you can get to currency faster-- that will right your economy.

Your land is really food poor, so it needs farms and maybe the odd riverside cottage or two in the capital. You can safely ignore mansa but tech trades tend to be really nice, so use them sparingly. Find a city that's not doing anything and build a scout to run through your neighbor's territory. You want to get a good look at what army they have. Louis can and will attack you even if he's pleased, and Charlemagne won't but he will attack if you can't get him to pleased. But it wouldn't hurt to build some axes and other guys to help defend against barbs and maybe them.


@MrKlew
Spoiler :

For some reason you haven't been able to produce that many hammers. It's needed to chop more and improve your capital's tiles with farms and mines. The horse city should have been 2N so it could at least share some river grassland-- the current position will take forever to be productive.

As for your later save, I would head east and take his cities and see how it goes. Take peace if you reach a stalemate. If you can trade for feudalism after taking one more city or so, that would be nice-- I would just vassalize him asap to save time and look for potential victims up next. Holy Roman Empire cities, are good commerce sites so you should spam them full of windmills, farms, and cottages.
 
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