C2C- Resources Discussion and Ideas

Azurian · May 5, 2012

Civ 4 Resource Guide
http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Resource_(Civ4)
There are three main subtypes of resources: strategic resources, luxury resources, and food resources.

FAQ

1. Doesn't Caveman2Cosmos Have A Resource Limit?
Because of coding accomplishments by Koshing and AIAndy the Resource Limit has been identified and eliminated.

Hydromancerx said:
The main problem with adding new map resources is that there may not be room for the other resources if we gt too many. That is why we have been more conservative in which resources get to show up on the map. Building made resources on the other hand we have no problem with adding a ton of those since they are not limited by the map.

2. Whats the relationship between Resources and Buildings?
Certain buildings require a specific resource to be built. Sometimes a resource can speed up completion of a building or Wonder by a certain percent.

Example:
Gold mine - requires Gold in City vicinity

El Dorado (Wonder) - Double Production speed with Gold

3. Whats the relationship between Resources and Techs?
Most Resources require a TECH to "discover" them.

Example:
Eggs - Poultry Domestication

4. What is the relationship between Resources and Guilds/Corporations?
Corporations consume specific resources when they are created or appear [Realistic Corporations option].

Example: Adventure Tours
Consumes: Elephants, Whales, Clams, Horses , Ancient Relics
Cities Recieve +1 :happy

List of Resources in C2C
- [v23 beta 5/4/2012 (Big Pic)]
-Ignore Culture Resources ex; American" and "Babylonian"

Spoiler :

Inspiration

Alphabetical List of Goods (HUGE!-166 pages)
http://www.wipo.int/classifications/nice/en/pdf/7_alphabetical_list.pdf

Classes of Goods
http://www.bouma.eu/list_of_goods_and_services.php3

List of Fruits
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_culinary_fruits

List of Vegetables
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegetables

List of domesticated Meat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domesticated_meat_animals

List of culinary Herbs and Spices
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_culinary_herbs_and_spices

List of Food Orgins
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_food_origins

TEMPLATE
Resource Name:
Technology that reveals resource:
Terrain Resource appears in:
Building enabled by resource (if applicable)
Bonuses Resource will give a Wonder (If appicable)
Civilopedia:

Azurian · May 5, 2012

................

hotrodlincoln said:
Well, that's certainly good news! Here are the resources I plan to work on. For the most part this is a splitting of the "Dye" and "Spices" resources into multiple resources to make the Dye and Spice trade more interesting. I will work on Coca and the Spice resources first, as I feel the Spice Trade is too important to world history to be simplified into a single resource, much like Gems became multiple resources in C2C.

Allspice
Brazilwood (Timber used primarily for making bows of string instruments, and Brazilin Dye)
Cinnamon
Cinnabar (Produces Vermilion and Mercury)
Cardamom (Maybe)
Cloves
Coca
Cochineal
Cutch (Dye)
Dye-Murex (Produces Tyrian Purple Dye)
Fustic (Used primarily for Khaki Dye)
Ginger
Henna
Indigo
Liquorice
Logwood (Dye)
Madder (Dye)
Nutmeg
Peppercorn
Saffron (Spice and a Dye)
Sassafras (Maybe)
Sesame
Sunflower
Tamarind (Maybe)
Turmeric (Maybe)
Vanilla
Category for obsoleted European Dyes (Kermes, Woad. This is a working idea. It may be better to just represent these as buildings that provide some sort of primitive dye resource. I'm not sure if it's possible to have a building obsolete when access to another resource is gained. This would be to represent things like Woad going obsolete when Europe gained access to Indigo, and Kermes [Crimson] going obsolete when access to Cochineal was gained. This may be more trouble than it's worth, ultimately. This is definitely the lowest priority.)

Edit: Also, thanks to Koshling and AIAndy for making this possible in the first place. When it comes to Civ4 mods, C2C is definitely running at 100% research with some talented science specialists to boot.

Azurian · May 5, 2012

Coconuts
+1 :happy
Tech: Sailing
Terrain: Coast
Building: Coconut Merchant

Found across much of the tropic and subtropic area, the coconut is known for its great versatility as seen in the many domestic, commercial, and industrial uses of its different parts. Coconuts are part of the daily diet of many people. When young, the entire fruits are used as melons. When mature, only the seeds are used as nuts.

CIVPlayer8 · May 5, 2012

Hold up... When we add happiness to a resource, I feel it should really deserve that happiness. An example would be gold. Maybe the cocoanut should have some other benefit besides a happy?

Azurian · May 5, 2012

CIVPlayer8 said:
Hold up... When we add happiness to a resource, I feel it should really deserve that happiness. An example would be gold. Maybe the cocoanut should have some other benefit besides a happy?

What do you recommend it have, i am unsure the benefit it should provide but coconuts were an important resource for pacific cultures.

Dancing Hoskuld · May 5, 2012

In general it is better to think through

and

on a resource and place it on a buildings or two that use that resource. That was the general idea from RoM days anyway. We have not always done it though. I am the usual guilty party since I am the one who usually adds the map resources.

Coconuts and others are currently a feature that we need to move back into a resource. It is a hold over from when there were limits on resources. Dates and Prickly Pear are two others. The only problem with converting them back is that they will probably break save games.

hotrodlincoln · May 5, 2012

Here's an idea I had. I'm not sure exactly how feasible it is, but watching the very awesome Tsukiji Fish Market wonder in action tells me that, to some extent, it is.

Now then. Take a look at the Giant Earth map. What do you see, resource wise? Apples in England, Wine in France, Horses in America, Bananas in Africa. Those of you who know your history may know that these regions, despite being the most quality producers of the ingredient, are not the native lands for these resources. Apples are native to Central Asia, Grapes are native to the Middle East, Horses are native to the Eurasian Steppe, and Bananas are native to Southeast Asia. Through trade, these resources ended up in the regions where they are most productive.

This could be a very interesting mechanic to employ in game, that would turn resource trades into a vital part of the game. But how do we replicate this?

My working idea is that we use a mechanic similiar to Tsukiji Fish Market, which randomly spawns fish, clams, crab resources for you. When trading for food and animal resources, you could then have access to a new building, say, a grape farm. When you build this, it will cause you to lose access to the resource, so you can not build more grape farms until you gain access to more grapes. It will randomly spawn one of the given resource, in this case, grapes, in your city vicinity. These buildings would be limited to certain terrain types. For instance, apples would require forests and grassland or lush in city vicinity. Grapes would require grassland, lush, or plains, etc etc.

In conjunction with this idea, resources on most maps would have a lower spawn rate. The resources on the Giant Earth Map would have all the food and animal resources moved to their native locations. So, for instance, the only animals pre-colombian Americans can domesticate are llamas, and bears, deer, or mammoths with megafauna domestication.

This also would give you more control of culture wonders, as you can always trade for the resource you need and have it pop up in your land, hopefully where you need it to be. In this way, the restrictions for, say, English culture, requiring forests, coastline, and apples becomes much less of a crapshoot, and instead becomes something you actually have control over.

hotrodlincoln · May 5, 2012

Dancing Hoskuld said:
In general it is better to think through and on a resource and place it on a buildings or two that use that resource. That was the general idea from RoM days anyway. We have not always done it though. I am the usual guilty party since I am the one who usually adds the map resources.

Coconuts and others are currently a feature that we need to move back into a resource. It is a hold over from when there were limits on resources. Dates and Prickly Pear are two others. The only problem with converting them back is that they will probably break save games.

Broken save games are the price we pay for progress. Right now, there are so many different ways to play C2C that I constantly restart my games to try new strategies, so I personally don't consider it a huge loss. People who are that attached to one save game can always rename their C2C folder to something else when installing a new version.

As to happiness and health, isn't that tied to, say, a plantation or farm or what have you in pretty much all cases? I really can't think of any examples that are different off the top of my head.

Faustmouse · May 5, 2012

I like the idea of more spice ressources, but aren't most maps already crowdes with ressources? If you add more and more, small maps won't be enjoyable anymore as there aren't enough tiles for all ressources. Maybe you should make a game option: "More ressources" to turn on or off by beginning a new game.

I also mentioned a new ressource system in another threat. I was referred to this:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=379853

But I'll post it here again because it fits here and I got almost no feedback

Faustmouse said:
Hi!
I have some ideas for changing the ressource system, because i think its a bit unlogical... and I think disapearing ressources are way to simple

First thing: Once you have one ressource, its avaidable in all of your cities. I'd love to see in how far one dairy in a small city is able to supply 10 big cities with milk... same thing with oil products: you just need one oil refinery no matter if you have 2 tanks or a super army with supersonic-fighters, carriers and stuff...
To solve this problem, I suggest a limited production of ressources. For example, a rubberfactory produces 5 vulcanized rubber ressources. You than can choose which 5 cities get those ressources. If you want to supply more than those 5 cities, you have to import more rubber. If you produce more than you need, you could export it. Same for basic ressources as fish or coal. There could be big, medium and small sources of coal, which provides three, two or one coal ressources when connected. And you might combine the amounts of fish you get with hydro's idea of the water pollution and so on. And I'd like to have techs influence the amount of ressources from one source, too, for example high explosives makes all ores produce an extra ressource. Another factor of the producing and usage of a city should be the size of that city... This way, the game becomes more realistic and gets a very important new strategic factor, as it is in reality.

Second thing: its strange that once you connect a new ressource its immediatly avaidable in all of your cities... even if they are very far away from each other. If your charitos need years to get from city A to city B, how could your merchants be faster?
This might plys a minor role when trading with iron, but not all ressources are as long-living as that. If you produce some food (for example milk) in one city, there is no way in the earlier eras to ship it in a far away city in time.
As you research new techs, your ressources are shipped faster and your food last longer. I think there was the problem of having too much health boni in the early game, which would be decreased this way.
You may combine the transportation-time and the endurance of food, as the transportation-time is mostly shorter than one turn, but in the galactic era this might become a bigger factor than the endurance. This way, the different types of rockets I saw in another thread are not just empty techs.

If you like the ideas, I will think more about specific techs and building that increase the productivity, endurance and reduces the needed time for shipping.

And I also want to know, in how far this would be possible to programm, since I don't know very much about programming

Dancing Hoskuld · May 5, 2012

hotrodlincoln said:
Here's an idea I had. I'm not sure exactly how feasible it is, but watching the very awesome Tsukiji Fish Market wonder in action tells me that, to some extent, it is.

Now then. Take a look at the Giant Earth map. What do you see, resource wise? Apples in England, Wine in France, Horses in America, Bananas in Africa. Those of you who know your history may know that these regions, despite being the most quality producers of the ingredient, are not the native lands for these resources. Apples are native to Central Asia, Grapes are native to the Middle East, Horses are native to the Eurasian Steppe, and Bananas are native to Southeast Asia. Through trade, these resources ended up in the regions where they are most productive.

This could be a very interesting mechanic to employ in game, that would turn resource trades into a vital part of the game. But how do we replicate this?

My working idea is that we use a mechanic similiar to Tsukiji Fish Market, which randomly spawns fish, clams, crab resources for you. When trading for food and animal resources, you could then have access to a new building, say, a grape farm. When you build this, it will cause you to lose access to the resource, so you can not build more grape farms until you gain access to more grapes. It will randomly spawn one of the given resource, in this case, grapes, in your city vicinity. These buildings would be limited to certain terrain types. For instance, apples would require forests and grassland or lush in city vicinity. Grapes would require grassland, lush, or plains, etc etc.

In conjunction with this idea, resources on most maps would have a lower spawn rate. The resources on the Giant Earth Map would have all the food and animal resources moved to their native locations. So, for instance, the only animals pre-colombian Americans can domesticate are llamas, and bears, deer, or mammoths with megafauna domestication.

This also would give you more control of culture wonders, as you can always trade for the resource you need and have it pop up in your land, hopefully where you need it to be. In this way, the restrictions for, say, English culture, requiring forests, coastline, and apples becomes much less of a crapshoot, and instead becomes something you actually have control over.

Sounds like you have the germ of a good idea there. The question is can it be expanded into a workable replacement for the Great Farmer as well? It also mans that there would not be any of the well known food resources in Australia as all of those are imports. Spices and incense we have but the grasses barley, oats, wheat, corn and rice are all imports as are rabbits, cattle, horses and chickens.

So are you suggesting that there be a suite of pseudo buildings that place one or more resources in a cities vicinity? Where the availability of the building is based on the terrain and climate of the city region, the resources available and the technology level of the nation.

For example: Apple Planter building requires access to apples (or pears) and a cool temperate climate with forests and orchards tech. When built it provides 1-3 apple or pear resources in the vicinity of the city but not on plots which already have a resource (visible or not) on them.

For Example: Wheat Planter building requires access to wheat and plains or grass or lush and agriculture tech. Provides 1-3 wheat resources ...

For Example: Tea Planter building requires warm temperate climate and hills with access to tea and an industrial era tech.

This looks doable and a good replacement for the Great Farmer mod. It does not even look OP if it is done right.

hotrodlincoln · May 5, 2012

Dancing Hoskuld said:
Sounds like you have the germ of a good idea there. The question is can it be expanded into a workable replacement for the Great Farmer as well? It also mans that there would not be any of the well known food resources in Australia as all of those are imports. Spices and incense we have but the grasses barley, oats, wheat, corn and rice are all imports as are rabbits, cattle, horses and chickens.

So are you suggesting that there be a suite of pseudo buildings that place one or more resources in a cities vicinity? Where the availability of the building is based on the terrain and climate of the city region, the resources available and the technology level of the nation.

For example: Apple Planter building requires access to apples (or pears) and a cool temperate climate with forests and orchards tech. When built it provides 1-3 apple or pear resources in the vicinity of the city but not on plots which already have a resource (visible or not) on them.

For Example: Wheat Planter building requires access to wheat and plains or grass or lush and agriculture tech. Provides 1-3 wheat resources ...

For Example: Tea Planter building requires warm temperate climate and hills with access to tea and an industrial era tech.

This looks doable and a good replacement for the Great Farmer mod. It does not even look OP if it is done right.

I believe this absolutely can eliminate the need for the Great Farmer, and would, in fact, be considerably more balanced. Once you get access to, say, Spices, you can have your Great Farmers give every single city access to those spices, which allows you to build a staggering amount of gold and food producing buildings in every single city.

I would recommend that these buildings only generate 1 resource in your city vicinity, however, Great Wonders could be employed for buildings that let you generate massive amounts of these resources in your city. Say, for instance, you wanted to have access to, I don't know, tons of Coffee. A world wonder functioning similar to the Tsukiji Fish Market could generate a similar amount of Coffee resources. This would be perfect if you plan to use a corporation as part of your game strategy.

Australia on the GEM would, unfortunately, simply have to make do. They have a vast continent all to themselves that they are unlikely to fill with settlements, so they can always employ large amounts of hunters for their food needs. By playing Australia or the Aboriginals on GEM with this modification, you would do so with the understanding that you won't have an easy time of it. Similarly, Europe will start off pretty resource barren as well, but through trade will eventually become the lush farming paradise we know it to be.

I like the idea of more spice ressources, but aren't most maps already crowdes with ressources? If you add more and more, small maps won't be enjoyable anymore as there aren't enough tiles for all ressources. Maybe you should make a game option: "More ressources" to turn on or off by beginning a new game.

Hm, perhaps, but if we employ my idea for resource trades, most map scripts will have their rate of resource spawns (for Animal, Farm and Plantation Resources, anyway) turned way down anyway to keep the map from being completely flooded with resources and to make trade a more vital part of the game. On a small map, as long as 1 of each resources spawn, I think it should still lead to an enjoyable game, as that 1 resource can eventually spread through much of the known world.

As to your idea for having cities require more resources so that one oil well isn't enough to power the world's largest armored division, the easiest way is probably to have certain buildings consume a resource. This would require a great deal of balance work, but could most certainly be made viable, IMO

hotrodlincoln · May 5, 2012

Quick question for you, DH.

I am learning all of this as I go along, and I did just get Paint Shop Pro set up so I can do the resource graphics. What I want to know is, is it acceptable for me to use placeholder graphics for the map graphics? I can get the 2D graphics out at a pretty decent rate, but the 3D ones will take quite a bit more time. I have a day off tomorrow with no plans so i'm going to spend as much time as possible getting buildings and graphics ready for all the resources I mentioned in my list, as well as a couple I forgot to mention (Pears, Pineapples, and Peaches). Once I am done with all of that I will go back through and make 3D map graphics for each resource, but I consider it the lowest priority compared to simply getting a functional mechanic going. It may make knowing what resources you have access to slightly confusing, but you can always use the "Show Resources" toggle so that it will display the little pop up with the 2D graphic so you know what's what. However, if that's not deemed acceptable, I will make sure that everything has 3D graphics ready to go before sending you anything, just know that it will probably take a good deal of time because, as I mentioned, I am learning as I go along.

Hydromancerx · May 5, 2012

Hydromancerx said:
@hotrodlincoln

We have many of those as building who take 2 other resources and if you have them in your city then they unlock more resources. The main problem with adding new map resources is that there may not be room for the other resources if we gt too many. That is why we have been more conservative in which resources get to show up on the map.

Building made resources on the other hand we have no problem with adding a ton of those since they are not limited by the map.

Posting here too.

Dancing Hoskuld · May 5, 2012

hotrodlincoln said:
Quick question for you, DH.

I am learning all of this as I go along, and I did just get Paint Shop Pro set up so I can do the resource graphics. What I want to know is, is it acceptable for me to use placeholder graphics for the map graphics? I can get the 2D graphics out at a pretty decent rate, but the 3D ones will take quite a bit more time. I have a day off tomorrow with no plans so i'm going to spend as much time as possible getting buildings and graphics ready for all the resources I mentioned in my list, as well as a couple I forgot to mention (Pears, Pineapples, and Peaches). Once I am done with all of that I will go back through and make 3D map graphics for each resource, but I consider it the lowest priority compared to simply getting a functional mechanic going. It may make knowing what resources you have access to slightly confusing, but you can always use the "Show Resources" toggle so that it will display the little pop up with the 2D graphic so you know what's what. However, if that's not deemed acceptable, I will make sure that everything has 3D graphics ready to go before sending you anything, just know that it will probably take a good deal of time because, as I mentioned, I am learning as I go along.

As far as I can tell, not having the 3D map resource can break things. I really have no idea about graphics which is why we keep ending up with pink blobs.

I am away for the next two weeks, without internet access.

hotrodlincoln · May 5, 2012

Here are my working plans for the new resources. I'll await final approval before beginning work.

Spoiler :

@Dancing Huskold: I didn't mean not having graphics at all, I meant using a placeholder graphic until I can get a proper graphic in place.

HydromancerX@ I understand the resource bloat concern, although I don't really see it as being a huge issue on the most map sizes, especially if my idea for resource trade is implemented, as that will eliminate the need for every civ to spawn with plenty of food resources in reach. Under that system, a civ could very well have only the barest handful of Food, Animal, and Plantation resources available, but end up with a plentiful amount by the end of the game through trade and building. I really only see it as being a concern on very, very small maps like duel sized.

Koshling · May 5, 2012

hotrodlincoln said:
Here are my working plans for the new resources. I'll await final approval before beginning work.

Spoiler :

Allspice
+1 Commerce
+1 Happiness (With Plantation)
Revealed by Cooking
Enabled by Calendar
Spawns only in Coastal Jungles (Only on Islands,

ideally. I don't know if this is possible.)

Spoiler :

Azurian · May 5, 2012

hotrodlincoln said:
Now then. Take a look at the Giant Earth map. What do you see, resource wise? Apples in England, Wine in France, Horses in America, Bananas in Africa.

This might be of great help to you..

List of Food Orgins
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_food_origins

Hydromancerx · May 5, 2012

@hotrodlincoln

1. Whats the difference between Brazilwood and Prime Timber?

2. I think Cinnamon is already covered as "Spices" resource. If we have more than one spice resource then we can always just rename it to cinnamon.

3. Indigo is basically what Dye is now. I suggest we just rename Dye to Indigo. Or even just make it like we did for gems and make a Indigo map resource and make Dye and building made resource.

4. Same as #1, what is the difference between prime timber and Logwood?

5. There are various other flower resources in the download section we should probably consider too besides Sunflowers.

hotrodlincoln · May 5, 2012

Hydromancerx said:
@hotrodlincoln

1. Whats the difference between Brazilwood and Prime Timber?

2. I think Cinnamon is already covered as "Spices" resource. If we have more than one spice resource then we can always just rename it to cinnamon.

3. Indigo is basically what Dye is now. I suggest we just rename Dye to Indigo. Or even just make it like we did for gems and make a Indigo map resource and make Dye and building made resource.

4. Same as #1, what is the difference between prime timber and Logwood?

5. There are various other flower resources in the download section we should probably consider too besides Sunflowers.

1. The difference is that Brazilwood is a multi-purpose wood. It's main uses are for the dye industry (although it has been mostly supplanted in this role in the modern day, due to industrial dyes being cheaper and the Brazilwood becoming an endangered species) and as the wood used in high quality bows for string instruments. It is useful in other timber roles as well, such as furniture, which is why it provides a prime timber resource with it's building, to keep me or someone else from having to go through and alter every building which is affected by prime timber.

2. The whole idea here is to split up the "spices" resource to make the spice trade more complex. The spices available in India, Indonesia, Mexico, and Jamaica are all completely different, and hugely economically important for different reasons. I feel that it's more important to separate out the spice resources than, say, the fruit resources, as the international fruit trade didn't take off until the modern day. The spice trade, on the other hand, was one of the main reasons colonization even happened.

3. That's the way I see it too, although as you can see from my list, many of the traditional dyes came from resources that in no way make sense to be on "plantations". Cinnabar, for instance, is a mineral resource. That being said, I consider splitting up the spice resource to be far and away more important than splitting up the dye resource, if a choice has to be made to prevent resource bloat. My main idea with the dye splitting is to have different buildings and things that can be made when you have access to certain colored dyes. The only one I have a solid idea for right now though is the Desert Camouflage Maker, which adds Desert Combat 1 and 2 to all military units built in that city, but it requires access to Khaki dye to make. Cutch was traditionally used to make Olive colors and drab greens as well as brown dyes, so it could be used for a more traditional camouflage color, granting, perhaps Woodsman 1 to units built in it's city.

4. The difference is, again, that the prime timber represents primarily those lumber types which are used just for furniture and construction. Logwood is used more in the dye industry than it is used in the lumber industry. The modern day nation of Belize was born out of British Logwood camps in the area.

5. I agree completely. Sunflower came to mind as being the most economically important flower, but there are other hugely important ones as well. The entire Dutch economy was, at one point, built around tulips until the bubble burst.

Edit: Here is the updated list. All resources have been altered to no longer grant happiness, but almost all of them now grant access to a building that does give happiness. What about resources that grant +1 Health?

Spoiler :

Dancing Hoskuld · May 5, 2012

5. Flax is in game but we don't change the important part of the plant over time. Ie we only consider the cloth production and not he linseed production which is more important today. You can't get both from the same plant - if you take the leaves for cloth it wont produce seed and if you try and take the leaves after the seed has set you wont get get good cloth.

6. Health should also be associated with a building if possible. Some commerce on health type herbs can come from the health care buildings if you like. So far we only have opium and hemp providing commerce to health care buildings. It has been suggested that Tea should add a health bonus. Peyote has been suggested as a new drug resource, mostly because we do not have enough desert type resources.

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