Financial x Organized Battle Round

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vranasm

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Inspired by some discussion in some other thread I prepared battle round between Financial and Organized trait.

As a leaders were chosen Mansa Musa (Spiritual/Financial) and Asoka (Spiritual/Organized).

They are both on the same Immortal/Normal/Continents map with identical starting position which looks like this

Civ4ScreenShot1560.jpg


The starting location imo is extremely favorable to financial trait with 2 flood plains and ton of riverside grass tiles, with good food. So no one can claim that financial is in disadvantage here.

Players if they decide to play should post T50, T70, T90 and so on, saves/screenshots of F2 screen and F9 statistics page (or state how many cottages/tiles where financial has effect) is worked to quantify the effect of Organized / Financial traits.

Which leader you choose is up to you, would be nice if you play both leaders of course, since that is best comparison.

Since the aim here is to find the effect on economy by both traits, you can reload, you can run repeat playing the save couple of times and post your best results. You should retract from using WorldBuilder though.

PS: I find the start tricky for both leaders since SIP looks like best, but both lack easy access to AH (they start with TW/mining or Myst/Mining)

edit:

For mansa musa save take the one made from coanda here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11508615&postcount=8
 
Mm, pigs! And good production! Industrious would've been better here ;)
 
wouldn't it be better to have both leaders play the same civ to truly test it out? you could argue fast workers or mint could have made up for some disadvantage.
 
I bet 1000 :gold: that ORG wins :D
 
I agree that two leaders with the same civ would have been better, not sure how easy it is to set up using the same map.
 
pigswill said:
I agree that two leaders with the same civ would have been better, not sure how easy it is to set up using the same map.
Click to expand...

Well, I doubt it's possible with given map, but you could always roll another map and use unrestricted leaders.
 
The differences between ORG and FIN for your economy is going to take effect at two different time periods. If you really want to compare them you would have to do it over a much longer time than 90 turns. ORG really doesn't start impacting you until about the mid game, while FIN blows up your research early. But it is also really hard to factor in the extra hammers you gain from the hammer bonuses. Also the impact of starting with The Wheel versus Mysticism is much much bigger. Starting with the second best starting tech versus the second worst is huge. MM is going to gain a huge advantage in the game because his early game will be that much stronger.

For this map for MM I would tech Pottery right away for the really early cottages. Asoka on the other hand can not do that. He has to go for Animal Husbandry. MM will end up with a much much earlier Writing. This will snowball the game even more towards MM. Well I am not sure what else to say, but this needs to be done as Unrestricted Leaders for it to be a fair comparison.
 
I think this should work. Took the Asoka save, made a WBSave out of it, swapped the leaderhead (and leader name) in a text editor, loaded the WBSave, exited out and created a regular save again. Mansa Musa of India. Use this save for comparing with the Asoka save.
 

Attachments

@Zero:
Vranasm said T90 and so on. :P


@Coanda:
Too late dammit! :sad:



To 1AD.

Spoiler :

SiP, hunting-ah-bw-aggri-pottery-writing-myst-aesth-poly-priest. Basically saw Hannibal has the only marble. I put pigs/bronze in first border of my second city and axe rushed him.

T65: Working 2 financial tiles.
T67: Working 4 financial tiles.
T70: Working 6 financial tiles - Civic upkeep 4g.
T75: Working 6 financial tiles - Civic upkeep 8g.
T100: Working 13 financial tiles - Civic upkeep 14g.
T110: Working 20 financial tiles - Civic upkeep 17g.
T115: Working 22 financial tiles - Civic upkeep 22g - Courthouses 3 - Lighthouses 0.








Not really sure what to make of it. If you would consider hammers won from 3x cheap courts and put them into SoZ for fail gold... :crazyeye:

For the rest on the game: Built late oracle, Parth, GL, NE, unlocked HE. Signed peace with Hannibal so I wouldn`t get this no-trade semi-isolation crap. Academy in capital, bulb phil, 3x GS waiting for paper/edu.


 
Damn, I thought this was going to be Darius. :)

Great Idea Vranasm.

However, I am sorry you chose an overpowerd UU for Organized rep. this game is allready lopsided for comparison. I will sit out this one.

Mansa of India also does not represent anything useful in my mind since unrestricted leaders loose the flavor of the civ for me.

In any case, great idea. vra.
 
Htadus said:
Damn, I thought this was going to be Darius. :)

Great Idea Vranasm.

However, I am sorry you chose an overpowerd UU for Organized rep. this game is allready lopsided for comparison. I will sit out this one.

Mansa of India also does not represent anything useful in my mind since unrestricted leaders loose the flavor of the civ for me.

In any case, great idea. vra.
Click to expand...

well I didn't chose overpowered UU for Org trait intentionally...

The thinking was "take spiritual+financial and spiritual+organized leader and let's see" and was actually surprised that it's Asoka of India :-) he is so rarely played that he slipped my mind

@coanda thanks for your work... will edit the OP to send people to your new MM save.
 
TheMeInTeam said:
Are you sure it isn't "fast workers win!" ;)?

Sid looks like fun to use here.
Click to expand...

I thought they had chosen the same Civs to not have UUs / UBs any effect? ;D

And as a sidenote: If one has really good Worker management, one can do (almost) as well with normal workers as one can with fast ones. ORG otoh is imo way more powerful than FIN. I've played both and with ORG I was always like "WTH, I have no maintenance, I can research with 100% for the next 150 rounds :eek: " :D .
 
Seraiel said:
I thought they had chosen the same Civs to not have UUs / UBs any effect? ;D

And as a sidenote: If one has really good Worker management, one can do (almost) as well with normal workers as one can with fast ones. ORG otoh is imo way more powerful than FIN. I've played both and with ORG I was always like "WTH, I have no maintenance, I can research with 100% for the next 150 rounds :eek: " :D .
Click to expand...

well you can try with the saves here... would be interesting to see you playing normal speed.

As for me...i will get to it eventually too, but Ice hockey and football have precedence.
 
vranasm said:
well you can try with the saves here... would be interesting to see you playing normal speed.

As for me...i will get to it eventually too, but Ice hockey and football have precedence.
Click to expand...

I would love to, but I have to finish my current game first. I have a Sushi-round with Ramesses that has already beaten the highscore for non-Incan games, I'm at 1.5M points and still got about 200 turns to go :) Thing is, that I also have 150 cities because having to micromanage them all to be real good, every turn takes between 30 minutes and 2h :eek: .

If the challenge is still going after I've finished that game, I'm gonna give this a try.
 
coanda said:
For anyone who wants to argue that traits really don't matter compared to all the random factors in a game and player skill, feel free to see what you can make of this.
Click to expand...

This argument wins. Full game spoilers ahoy (though my complete report will be later)

Spoiler :


Burn's game he rushed hannibal and killed him; I could have done that too but I didn't. Why? I saw hannibal + sal and figured sal likely to found religion early. In Burn's game, that happened. In mine, sal founded a VERY late confucianism so not only was I missing FIN, but

1. Lacked :) for many turns from running a religion
2. Hannibal declared on me, and he had noobphants
3. I killed invasion stack anyway (I whore hills for this reason).

And most importantly

4. Julius ***sar has capitulated the entire other continent by ~1400's to 1500's AD.

So now I'm solidly #2 in land behind that monster and his triple vassals, and he's plotting on me at 1600 AD. I have rifles out and he doesn't have paper yet, meaning it's damned likely he loses anything he lands on me. However, I'm going to have to turn him back and then find a way to either land a fleet at his empire's shores on 3 coastal cities OR kill everyone on my continent after repeling him...but the others on my continent are a bit ahead in tech (likely answer is to use rifle + arty on hannibal to kill him since he's smaller than me, then spank sal). That would leave nukes as the answer. A long game...and a LOT of that is SOLELY because of the early DoW = 100's and 100's of lost early commerce and runaway AI, something I doubt every game will see.

 
Seraiel said:
I would love to, but I have to finish my current game first. I have a Sushi-round with Ramesses that has already beaten the highscore for non-Incan games, I'm at 1.5M points and still got about 200 turns to go :) Thing is, that I also have 150 cities because having to micromanage them all to be real good, every turn takes between 30 minutes and 2h :eek: .
Click to expand...
Love to see a write up on that (after completed ofc).
 
TheMeInTeam said:
This argument wins. Full game spoilers ahoy (though my complete report will be later)

Spoiler :


Burn's game he rushed hannibal and killed him; I could have done that too but I didn't. Why? I saw hannibal + sal and figured sal likely to found religion early. In Burn's game, that happened. In mine, sal founded a VERY late confucianism so not only was I missing FIN, but

1. Lacked :) for many turns from running a religion
2. Hannibal declared on me, and he had noobphants
3. I killed invasion stack anyway (I whore hills for this reason).

And most importantly

4. Julius ***sar has capitulated the entire other continent by ~1400's to 1500's AD.

So now I'm solidly #2 in land behind that monster and his triple vassals, and he's plotting on me at 1600 AD. I have rifles out and he doesn't have paper yet, meaning it's damned likely he loses anything he lands on me. However, I'm going to have to turn him back and then find a way to either land a fleet at his empire's shores on 3 coastal cities OR kill everyone on my continent after repeling him...but the others on my continent are a bit ahead in tech (likely answer is to use rifle + arty on hannibal to kill him since he's smaller than me, then spank sal). That would leave nukes as the answer. A long game...and a LOT of that is SOLELY because of the early DoW = 100's and 100's of lost early commerce and runaway AI, something I doubt every game will see.

Click to expand...


I would agree indeed that randomness is king. I don`t think it should be about the best results but rather a `simple` comparison how org/fin holds up for the player in question. For example in my game I feel FIN comes out ahead.

Mild spoiler
Spoiler :
I always worked more fin tiles then the gold I would`ve saved from civic upkeep and I don`t feel faster courts would`ve made up for that. Not to mention I didn`t build a single lighthouse since Hannibal`s capital had one for free.

I`m further in the game now at 1000AD where I almost own the continent and even now I feel FIN comes out better because many of the captured cities already have courts. And yet again the amount of fin tiles outnumbers the civic upkeep (without me even trying since many cities are food poor and I favor farms)


Anyway usually I keep out of the FIN/ORG discussion because in the end it always translates to SE vs CE vs Combo. :crazyeye: Many people will argue for ORG being superior but I have always felt a small advantage for FIN. I like the early commerce boost for worker or military techs over the flexibility. But imho in the end the difference is pretty much neglectible.

I think it`s easy to be mislead by looking only at how high you run the research slider and not at how many beakers you are actually producing. Imho unless you are running a full out SE, I think FIN will be on top if only by a small measurement.
 
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