Nobles' Club C: Justinian of the Byzantine Empire

dalamb

dalamb

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The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Justinian of Byzantium, whom we last played in NC LIII. The Byzantines start with Mysticism and The Wheel.
Justinian.jpg
  • Traits: Justinian is Spiritual and Imperialistic. SPI means faster temples, but its chief benefit is no anarchy when switching civics. This can be a diplomatic trait: it lets you yield to AI demands for civic and religion switches, gaining you improved relations, while allowing you to change back easily five turns later. IMP means 50% faster productions of settlers, and doubles the rate of Great Generals.
  • The UB: The Hippodrome, a Theatre giving +1:), andother +1 with horses (which are needed for the UU), and +1:) per 5% :culture: instead of per 10%. This can give larger cities sooner (given enough :health: resources), or sustain a great deal of war weariness.
    Hippodrome.jpg

  • The UU: The Cataphract, a Knight with 12 strength instead of 10, but without first-strike immunity.
    Cataphract.jpg
And the start:
start.jpg

Spoiler map details :
Inland sea, like an enclosed Mediterranean. No wrapping; thus you have exactly two neighbours.
Spoiler edits :
Checked that there's horse and iron reasonably nearby for the UU. Moved a nasty adjacent leader further away.
Spoiler which one :
Swapped Monty with Pacal
Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:
There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do suggest that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards. You can post as often as you like; here's one suggestion:
  • 4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
  • 1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
  • 500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
  • 1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other
  • continent if applicable, etc)
  • 1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
  • End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)
This is just a guideline. If you're trying to improve your game, then posting more frequent updates, in as much detail as you can manage, is the best way to get suggestions from other players. If you come to what seems like a major decision and you want some advice, post an update, regardless of what game-year it is.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps in the early days of the series, and all of you for playing.
Click to expand...
The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 100 Justinian Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Noble. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

  1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
  2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
  3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
  4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
  5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
  6. Exit the worldbuilder.
  7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
Spoiler huts and events :
Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.
 

Attachments

Hippodromes don't get artist slots if that's a selling point.

Justinian's not my favorite since I usually skip knights for cuirs, but maybe I'll give him a go.
 
The Oz-Man said:
Hippodromes don't get artist slots if that's a selling point.

Justinian's not my favorite since I usually skip knights for cuirs, but maybe I'll give him a go.
Click to expand...

I just wish Justinian, and Ram Rams traits were reversed. If Justinian had Ind he could get to Guilds quick much much much easier. If he had Phil it would speed it much quite a bit also. But the Catas are actually quite quite good if you can get them before the AI has pikes, and castles. When you field them early enough it is like attacking longbows with Cuirs 800 years earlier.
 
Ughughughughugh.

Spoiler :
I don't know that I'm going to finish this one. The presence of Monty, Sury, and Ragnar means that even Pacal has beefed up considerably, and the war with him has been an utter slog. I might try again with a straight Guilds beeline, since I went off track to grab the Aesthetics wonders and the Great Library thanks to Marble in the BFC. Tough map--calls for an early beatdown of Pacal or Sury, I think.
 
I think I'm gonna give this one a go. I never have played Justinian, so this should be interesting. Seems SIP is the logical thing to do.
 
1 AD Noble/No huts and events

Spoiler :
SIP, warrior to pop 2 while teching fishing, work boat, worker, warriors until pop 5 then standard worker/settler to expand. I don't remember the exact tech path, worker techs mainly, but I hooked up the marble quick and oracle'd Monarchy for happiness early on.

Diplo is going good, judiasm become the dominant religion with Monty in it as well, so I have managed to keep him happy. Both neighbors are easy to keep happy, especially with the ease of civic and religion change demands. I think I'm going to tech to Lib, then go for a Cataphract rush on Sury. :)

Oh also Oxford to blow the AI out of the water with tech.
 
Played on emperor but am not going to continue beyond 1 AD

Spoiler :

I had no trouble beating down Pacal and Sury but if there is one thing I hate is when the AI places cities in garbage positions. I had to burn 2 maya cities just cause it boult straight on wheat with no water in sight and another one just beyond a gold mine so I couldn't use it as there wasn't room for another town. Things like that drives me nuts and I can't stand it.
 
Zx Zero Zx said:
When you field them early enough it is like attacking longbows with Cuirs 800 years earlier.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately it's not true. First strike immunity plus ability to ignore the walls make a GREAT difference.

Spoiler :
Screen%2520Captures.jpg


Don't fall into this trap. I did couple of times.
 
GKey said:
Unfortunately it's not true. First strike immunity plus ability to ignore the walls make a GREAT difference.

Spoiler :
Screen%2520Captures.jpg


Don't fall into this trap. I did couple of times.
Click to expand...

I never said it was anywhere near as good, as the immunity to first strikes, and walls is huge. But they are a GOOD unit for Emp, and bellow.
 
It's also very questionable you get them 800 years earlier than Curis, cos of bulbing.
Bad UU for human players, only good for AIs, even if peoples dun wanna hear that ;)
 
Cataphract is pretty broken in those later era starts where you can use them right away. On super starts below deity they're still pretty good. Otherwise, they're ok but nothing special. Castles are such a big screw job and while the 2 str is helpful, it just doesn't put them over the edge against longbows in castles. Even a non-protective longbow on a flatland city castle is getting well over 15 strength if fortified...and that's BEFORE promotions. Pikes...hell even maces in such cities make your odds so miserable you need spies or siege...so for cataphract to be worthwhile you need to get there before castles...and too often that's just impractical or too risky to attempt.

Unless, of course, you start in medieval or renaissance (renaissance is just beginning of it) or something and can spank fools with them before they can build such defenses. The MP games I've seen involving those eras ban Byzantium lol.
 
1834 AD Conquest/ Noble/ No huts or events

Spoiler :
Sury wasn't my first victim because the ever brilliant Ragnar decided to declare on me right before my Cataphract rush was ready. So I just played a bit of defensive then stomped him. Right after that though it seemed the cataphract was expiring, pikes were starting to show up in AI land, so I decided to update to Cavs. Hit Pacal first then Sury peace vassaled to me! Burger king was next which was really easy since the AI was dog pilling him all game. Recovered my economy a bit then hit Monty next, gilamesh right after him. It was a fun game, really enjoyed playing Justinian.
 
Just played the first 25 turns (up to 3000 BC). Immortal, Standard Speed, No Huts/Events. This map is "interesting".

Spoiler :

Sury, Monty, AND Ragnar all met within 20 turns?! :eek: How this map goes for everyone will depend heavily on if you get declared on early. Luckily, Pacal founded Buddism and Monty founded Hinduism, so maybe there can be some Mayan dogpiling in the future.

SIP, yuck at getting plains cowed. Went worker first and Fishing -> Pottery for some super fast flood plain cottages. As to expansion prospects, I've never played Inland Sea before, so maybe Immortal is a bad idea for a map like this? :crazyeye:
 
Monarch/Normal. Huts&Events. Opening thoughts?

SiP looks perfect. Justinian looks good for modest REXing. So, will open with warrior, settler rather than a worker. This allows for mining, BW as the starting techs.
 
I got choked this game:

Deity / Normal

Spoiler :

Turns out my 2 neighbors expanded into me leaving me with no option but to rush cataphracts / engineering. I was about to cap Sury when he vassaled to Monte ( I bribed Monte in earlier, bad mistake ) and that killed my vassal steamroll right there. Never did catch up in tech after that due to Pacal going crazy getting rifling at 800 AD and infantry at 1100 AD ( or thereabouts ).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSxj-ONwodk&list=PLD476EC5C911AC5B8&feature=plpp_play_all

 
Monarch/Noble. Huts&Events. 975 BC.
Spoiler :
If I recall properly the opening builds were: Warrior, Settler, Worker, Warrior, Settler, Axeman, Settler, Axeman, Axeman, Granary. The tech path was: Mining, BW, Hunting, AH, Agriculture, Pottery, IW, Masonry in 1T.

Cities: Thessalonica, 3080, 1NW of the pig. Adrianople, 2120, 1N of the S cow. Long to Nicaea,1640, 1SW of the W cow. The huts provided 42G and 27G, while a cash-for-failure Stonehenge bid brought in 51G. A recent quest was the Horse Whispering, just joined by Greed on the Khmer iron west of Adrianople. Byzantium is an average civ with prospects and possibilities.
 
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