Why is sexuality not allowed in the game, but violence is A-ok?

So like ive been into C2C since I started college this spring, and its like nothing else I have played. It reminds me of Advanced Wars on the Gameboy and DS.

I have a question;Why is sexuality not allowed in the game, but violence is A-ok?

Why is there no fertility dolls in Prehistoric Era?
Why is there no prostitution tech?
Why is their no Polygamy civic?
Why is their no Karma Sutra wonder?
Why is their no pornography tech?
Sexual Orientation rights?
Nudist colonies?
Lingerie shops?
Erotic stories?
Why are brothels allowed but not strip clubs?


In many parts of the world, sexuality in a game is seen as normal, and violence is censored. Why is C2C dumbed down like this? It makes no sense to me at all. Sexuality is a big big part of human history, and as a female i am kinda offended its barely mentioned in the game at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_human_sexuality

Is it because the game reflects christian values?
Is it because most of the mod team is American?
Is it because its considered taboo?

This s not a family friendly game, and christian mentality should not be the main philosophical mantra at all. I think this is unfair to the international players.

America is not the world. and its christian values don't represent the world.

I dont understand at all. Sexuality is a big part of human history so why ignore it?

Its actually really sexist, because you decide to control the contributions that have affected women in history.

AT LS612
Ive been following your posts, you are the main opponent against sexuality, and I dont like your mentality at all. Why do you want to make this game so kiddy and unrealistic?, and be kinda sexist by denying sexuality in history? The game should be morality free, your christian values shouldnt ruin the game because you find sexuality repulsive.
Moderator Action: Please don't troll the other users.

I dont think its fair to women to not include sexuality in the game. Sexuality had had great influence in history, (Cleopatra, Helen of Troy, Pornagraphy, Gay rights), and it shouldnt be excluded from C2C because it goes against american values.

Besides this, love C2C, keep up the great work!

Please tell me a specific reason why, except of saying not family friendly.

In Europe sexuality is everywhere and NOT seen as taboo, compared to christianized America.
In South america, Oceania, India, and many pacific cultures, sexuality is not taboo at all, it is actually celebrated.
c2c should not be Americanized, is should be based on the International version of human history.
Moderator Action: And mainly you're not allowed to troll anyone, no matter which culture he/she is from. So please refrain from such statements.

There is really no reason for the accusatory tone. What's been included in the mod was included because that's what the mod team wanted to include. If there's something you would like to see in the mod, then put down some concrete ideas, see how they go over, then make them. Just saying that the mod needs X and Y isn't very helpful, considering how much stuff the team is working on right now. For instance, what precisely would a Prostitution technology entail? How many beakers would it take to research? What techs would lead to it, and what techs would it lead to? What buildings/units/civics would it unlock?

Edit: Saying that sexuality is omnipresent everywhere but in American society is white-washing the truth. Western Europe is much more okay with nudity to a degree, that doesn't mean French or German societies are okay with porn on mainstream TV channels, or walking around nude in public. You view American culture as being excessively prudish, where many other societies view American culture as being excessively focused on sexuality. There is a lot more nuance to human sexuality than simply "American Christianity = regressive, Everywhere Else = progressive".

Honestly I have no problem with adding them. We have a Brothel and Crime (Rape). I also planned to add some STDs when we add diseases.

As long as no nudity is shown I do not see why not. Am I wrong? Can someone give a yes or no to this issue?

Welcome to CFC and C2C.

C2C is a democracy (sort of), most of the modders are in the US, welcome to the tyranny of the majority.

The brothels are allowed because RoM, the basis for C2C, was written by a Fin. At one stage we showed someone how to change the name to "Gentleman's Club" because they wanted their under 12's to be ale to play the game.

The problem international games have is that they need to obey the laws of the lands they are being played in. Hence the no Hitler rule. I suspect that because aspects of sexuality is taboo in places that no one bothers to mod it in. Someone has to do the work.

Hydromancerx said:

As long as no nudity is shown I do not see why not. Am I wrong? Can someone give a yes or no to this issue?

Click to expand...

CFC, at least, has a rule against nudity.

hotrodlincoln said:

There is really no reason for the accusatory tone. What's been included in the mod was included because that's what the mod team wanted to include. If there's something you would like to see in the mod, then put down some concrete ideas, see how they go over, then make them. Just saying that the mod needs X and Y isn't very helpful, considering how much stuff the team is working on right now. For instance, what precisely would a Prostitution technology entail? How many beakers would it take to research? What techs would lead to it, and what techs would it lead to? What buildings/units/civics would it unlock?

Edit: Saying that sexuality is omnipresent everywhere but in American society is white-washing the truth. Western Europe is much more okay with nudity to a degree, that doesn't mean French or German societies are okay with porn on mainstream TV channels, or walking around nude in public. You view American culture as being excessively prudish, where many other societies view American culture as being excessively focused on sexuality. There is a lot more nuance to human sexuality than simply "American Christianity = regressive, Everywhere Else = progressive".

Click to expand...

Fertility
Prehistoric
Fertility dolls
Birthmother house
Adolescence Copulation
Manhood Ritual

Cultural Sexuality
Ancient
Civic Prostitution ( ++ happiness and coin -science)
Meretrix Den (registered prostitute in ancinet rome)
Tantric texts
Wonder: Kama Sutra (india)


Pornography
Modern
Civic: Age of Consent
Strip club / Gentleman Club
Escort Service
Nudist Colony
Sex tourism
Pornography studio
Lingerie Shop

Hydromancerx said:

Honestly I have no problem with adding them. We have a Brothel and Crime (Rape). I also planned to add some STDs when we add diseases.

As long as no nudity is shown I do not see why not. Am I wrong? Can someone give a yes or no to this issue?

Click to expand...

I agree with the no nudity part, it can be represented in a tasteful manner.

Gay Rights
Modern
Wonder: Gay Pride Parade
LGBT Awareness Day

Laura said:

So like ive been into C2C since I started college this spring, and its like nothing else I have played. It reminds me of Advanced Wars on the Gameboy and DS.

I have a question;Why is sexuality not allowed in the game, but violence is A-ok?

Why is there no fertility dolls in Prehistoric Era?

Click to expand...

I'm sure you could get some in as a minor building or good; anyone who finds those lumpy Venus statues pornographic probably has either some strange fetish or thinks Michaelangelo's David or the Venus de Milo are obscene.

Laura said:

Why is there no prostitution tech?

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Well, they don't call it the "oldest profession" for nothing; it's something observable in animals that inherently arises as an organized trade with the invention of currency. You could make an argument that Cooperation should give you some more primitive form of it as a proto-building, but then so would "Friendship Pacts" and "Interfamily Meals"- things folks might feel are inherently implied in the benefits to Cooperation, and thus not necessary as "buildings". I can see a case though, so feel free to front it to the developers if you can come up with some balanced and realistic stats for it.

Laura said:

Why is their no Polygamy civic?

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Why does there need to be? It's not like humans are the only animals that practice it; it would probably just ignite debates over the superiority of monogamy vs polygamy. You can't even tie it to a religious tech; look at Hasidic Jews, Mormons and some Protestant sects.

Laura said:

Why is their no Karma Sutra wonder?

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Probably because the wonder movie would be a tad NSFW. If you could find some way around that, I'm sure there'd be a good excuse to include it.

Laura said:

Why is their no pornography tech?

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Why is there no action-art tech? No comedy tech? No tragedy tech? No simulation game tech? These are genres evolving from existing mediums- we cover only significant artistic movements (Impressionism, Realism, Dada) rather than genres themselves. I'm sure there's been erotic art since man learned to paint with his fingers- no need to seperate it out from the finger painting tech itself.

Laura said:

Sexual Orientation rights?

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There is a submod in progress for minority rights, though that appears more oriented (no pun intended) towards cultural minorities. Would certainly make an interesting twist to the AIDS disease once we get that implemented...

Laura said:

Nudist colonies?

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Kind of presumes your culture has a taboo on that in the first place; we like to be open minded as far as cultural possibilities are concerned. When you start in the stone ages, taboos are kind of a

Laura said:

Lingerie shops?

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Possible, but what would distinguish them from regular clothing stores to the extent of needing seperate buildings for them? Should extreme sports, militaria, Salvation Army style second hand, fetish, novelty and foreign clothing stores be added too? I certainly wouldn't mind; I'm all for variety.

Laura said:

Erotic stories?

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Would be rather out of place in a turn based strategy game where all the leaders are abstract immortal avatars, to put it mildly. Closest you've got is Isabella flirting with the player on occasion, though if you really wanted to be historically accurate about it Alexander should be an Ozymandias type.

Laura said:

Why are brothels allowed but not strip clubs?

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Guess we haven't gotten around to it. There's been talk of modmods to take out adult content like that from the main mod, so I guess it's a matter of deciding whether we want adult content to be a modmod or removing it to be. I wrote up an event based around an STD outbreak in your cities red light district; tis in the events thread.

Laura said:

In many parts of the world, sexuality in a game is seen as normal, and violence is censored. Why is C2C dumbed down like this? It makes no sense to me at all. Sexuality is a big big part of human history, and as a female i am kinda offended its barely mentioned in the game at all.

Click to expand...

Well, it's just kind of hard to get any sort of erotica (mind you, my preferences mean pretty much nothing in C2C would be erotic to me) in a turn based strategy game about cartoon humans moving about on giant maps.

Laura said:

Is it because the game reflects christian values?

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If it did, why has strategyonly openly praised Religulous? Why is Christianity not the most powerful religion out of our decidedly big lot? Why do people, in fact, often complain the Abrahamic religions get shafted because they pick up animist religions in the Prehistoric?

Laura said:

Is it because most of the mod team is American?

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Well, I'm a New Zealander, DH (no longer with us for unrelated reasons) is an Australian, Hydro and LS612 are from California, hardly a hotbed of repressed puritans... mind you, my views on politics, culture and religion would be more at home in Liechtenstein, Poland or Singapore than New Zealand, so I'm probably a bad example.

Laura said:

Is it because its considered taboo?

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I don't think so; C2C hasn't shied away from some really weird transhumanist stuff (RePet being the tip of the iceberg) and no one has yet called for my head because I put in Muhammad as a Great Prophet name.

Laura said:

This s not a family friendly game, and christian mentality should not be the main philosophical mantra at all. I think this is unfair to the international players.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure where you got the idea this mod is some kind of ultra-advanced Left Behind: Eternal Forces sequel, but you need to get it out of your head; this mod is not a place for anyone's personal religious vendettas. And let's be honest here; how many Asatru, Buddhists, Scientologists or Wiccans, say, are we going to have in our target audience? I'd wager the majority are secular humanists, but that's just my experiences as a rather silent believer online talking.

Laura said:

America is not the world. and its christian values don't represent the world.

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America is the pornography capital of the world, and is arguably the place where the gay rights movement originated (I say arguaby because I've heard some interesting theories about it originating in early 20th century Germany, but that's a matter for another time). Many New Zealanders consider American TV trashy because of it's wanton sexuality and other such things; my tastes in television are more along the lines of dramas anyway, though I do enjoy laughing at some of the bizarre groups CSI tells me about.

Laura said:

I dont understand at all. Sexuality is a big part of human history so why ignore it?

Its actually really sexist, because you decide to control the contributions that have affected women in history.

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Sexuality is not an attribute restricted to women, ma'am. Nor are all contributions women have made to human history sexual; indeed, I'm about as feminist as Walter Block, and I'd still say that would be a damn sexist statement.

Laura said:

Please tell me a specific reason why, except of saying not family friendly.

In Europe sexuality is everywhere and NOT seen as taboo, compared to christianized America.
In South america, Oceania, India, and many pacific cultures, sexuality is not taboo at all, it is actually celebrated.
c2c should not be Americanized, is should be based on the International version of human history.

Click to expand...

Hah! So much for us Catholics being Puritans-with-communion if that South America bit is true. Why is it that whenever anyone says international (*especially* if it is capitalized) that they really mean that modern France and Germany are culturally superior to modern America? I mean, no one ever bothers asking the Chinese or the Russians or the Indians or the Zulu what their opinion is on transliberation; they're probably too busy tryin to feed their families to worry about upper class white people and their bourgeois crusades. Anyone, I don't want this to get too hostile, so I'll just stop and say that I don't think there's an endemic bias agaisnt sexuality in C2C and leave it at that, and that I wouldn't personally object to the adding of neutral, textual mentions of adult content provided it didn't become outright pornographic (like I said, my preferences mean it'd be damn near impossible to titillate me in C2C anyway).

Dancing Hoskuld said:

Welcome to CFC and C2C.

C2C is a democracy (sort of), most of the modders are in the US, welcome to the tyranny of the majority.

The brothels are allowed because RoM, the basis for C2C, was written by a Fin. At one stage we showed someone how to change the name to "Gentleman's Club" because they wanted their under 12's to be ale to play the game.

The problem international games have is that they need to obey the laws of the lands they are being played in. Hence the no Hitler rule. I suspect that because aspects of sexuality is taboo in places that no one bothers to mod it in. Someone has to do the work.

CFC, at least, has a rule against nudity.

Click to expand...

I think nudity should not be allowed. I agree on that.

Is the age rating of this mod 16+?

@Praetyre

Well said.

Praetyre said:

And let's be honest here; how many Asatru, Buddhists, Scientologists or Wiccans, say, are we going to have in our target audience?

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Research bonuses and the Palace Of Potala aren't the only reason I usually choose Buddhism as my religion.

Anyhoo, before we get too far with the thread, I feel the need to point out that the Kama Sutra isn't exclusively focused on sex. It's a treatise on love and family among other things. It just so happens to be one of the few ancient texts to openly explore sexuality, as it is such an important component of a healthy relationship for most. Most of it's bonuses should be cultural in nature, although... It might be one of the few wonders which can well and truly justify granting a population bonus.

Laura said:

I think nudity should not be allowed. I agree on that.
Is the age rating of this mod 16+?

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I don't think we have any language (which is really unnecessary in this type of game) and discrimination in an abstract way I suppose (ex. Slavery, Crusades, etc). Its hard to say since most of the stuff is reduced down to text and stats.

For instance a Strip Club would probably give something like + (Makes them Happy) + (Can tax it) + with Alcohol (may get drunk) - (your not working) which is nearly identical to say a Night Club.

[...]no one bothers to mod it in. Someone has to do the work.

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That's the main problem I think. The idea just didn't come up (I wonder how the demographics of the C2C community look like).

Regardin the ideas, I don't think we need new technologies for that, but some buildings and wonders would be a good idea - of course as already said in this thread, tactfully and no offensive nudity.
First the Brothel could get a building line over all eras. The early eras will only provide a happiness and culture benefit and some unhealthiness, later it should also provide gold (taxation) but the culture bonus should probably be dropped and I feel from renessaince onwards the espionage interaction of the existing brothel seems pretty fitting to continue into modern (and future) eras.
Wonders like Kamasutra or Gay Pride Parade (or LGBT Emancipation) could fit very well too, and all in existing technologies.
Also regarding the civics, I don't really see how they would fit in with the existing civics, unless a new category is added (which then would need much more options). But I don't agree that we should just shy away from that because it would incite debate over polygamy over monogamy - the same could be said for existing civics, especially government ones. But still
And I guess we also need a Pornography resource

I totally agree that sexuality is an important part of human civilization, in early ages with cult(ure)s or religions and later as a business and entertainment sector. So I think it belongs in this mod but as said at the start of that post, someone would have to do it, so that's a dilemma.

I think it is just a matter of priorities as well. With Multimaps, culture, and nomadic starts (not in any particular order of priority) in the fore of anyone's mind other things just tend to get pushed off to the side.

Also, if the topic is approached in a civil enough manner without attracting a moderator's attention... I don't see why it can't be discussed about and fleshed out to eventually be added.
As I've said before I would rather the other things get the attention.

Isn't the crime solicitation a prostitution reference?
Isn't polytheism covered by the actual polytheistc religions already present, and later by the secular civic?

As a concerned Christian conservative American person, I would like to request an "I am a prude" gameoption if even half of this gets implemented.

Cyrusfan said:

Isn't the crime solicitation a prostitution reference?
Isn't polytheism covered by the actual polytheistc religions already present, and later by the secular civic?

As a concerned Christian conservative American person, I would like to request an "I am a prude" gameoption if even half of this gets implemented.

Click to expand...

I think solicitation includes that and door-to-door sales people and the like.

That is polygamy not polytheism ie many wives. Can't remember the name for many husbands which also exists now and in the past.

Edit A wife with many husbands is polyandry.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

The problem international games have is that they need to obey the laws of the lands they are being played in. Hence the no Hitler rule.

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I'm not sure that applies to mods, since they are not sold in the countries that might have issues against such content. Being overly politically correct is a disease anyway, I would hope the C2C team does not steer clear from potentially controversial issues/content (that is, if you feel it would be a worthwhile addition to the mod) just because some people might not like it.

i actually think the best comprimise would be to make it a option in the game settings like multiple production, that way those who mind this sort of thing can disable it....

Ufdah, yeah that's polygamy that's being asked about.

Moderator Action: 8 offtopic posts were deleted between this and the following post.