Many of you likely play Paradox games (Crusader Kings, Europa, etc.) in addition to Civ. Some of you have already talked about the following ideas. I just wanted to create a post to discuss the issue in greater detail.
G&K has improved the Diplomacy in CiV, but it still needs some work. Currently, Paradox games typically have the best Diplomacy model out of any strategy game, IMHO. Here is how typical Paradox diplomacy works:
1) Casus Belli: To start a 'just war,' a casus belli (Cause of war) is needed. This can include, based on the game, claim on title, claim on territory, religion, and a number of other issues. Declaring war without a valid casus belli will quickly drive up the aggressors 'bad boy' score, with serious diplomatic penalties, reputation hits, and other problems.
2) War Score: During a war, each side earns 'War Score' based on winning battles, taking territory, etc. During peace negotiations, the War Score determines who has the advantage. Getting 100% War Score basically means total defeat of the enemy. This War Score factors in all participants in the conflict.
3) Peace Negotiations: You can negotiate a 'White Peace.' This returns things to the Status quo ante bellum, ie: the state before the war. You can also demand concessions, such as territory or titles. The more war score you have, the more you can demand and the more likely the enemy is to accept.
This creates a fairly realistic, fun, and easy to understand system that is far superior to what we have ever gotten in a Civ game.
You also typically don't have 'All or Nothing Wars' or 'Eternal Wars.' In most games, you can't completely conquer an enemy even if you take all their territory. You have to do it over the course of several wars, typically.
Here is how I would improve CiV diplomacy, based on Paradox's system.
1) Casus Belli: You can gain this based on the following factors:
A) Enemy Civ settles near your borders ( say within 3 titles, ie: a city radius)
B) Enemy Civ moves units near your borders and will then refuses to withdraw (would require giving player demand, which AI already has...)
C) Enemy Civ attacks a protected or Allied City State.
D) Enemy Civ bullies a protected Civ and then refuses to stop
E) Enemy Civ spreads religion, then refuses to stop. Spreading to Holy City gives automatic Casus Belli.
F) Enemy Civ spreads religion, agrees to stop, then spreads again within X turns (Scaled to game speed)
G) Enemy Civ has different religion. Invalid starting in Industrial Era.
H) Enemy Civ attacks Civ with your religion.
I) Enemy Civ caught spying and refuses to stop.
J) Enemy Civ caught spying, agrees to stop, then spies again within X turns (Scaled to game speed)
K) Enemy Civ planning to attack (Discovered with intrigue)
L) Enemy Civ attacks a 3rd Civ that has Declaration of Friendship, Open Borders, or other treaty.
M) Civ with Defense Pact refuses to honor treaty (requires the option of refusing to honor)
N) Civ breaks any treaty early
O) Enemy Civ holds a conquered city or CS of your Civ
Each Casus Belli would only be valid for a set length of turns, scaled to game speed, in most cases. So spreading religion would give a Casus Belli for 25 turns. Capturing a city will give a Casus Belli for 100 turns.
Declaring war without a valid Casus Belli will give a major diplomatic penalty with all other Civs that know BOTH parties in the war. If you meet a new Civ, it will not care about the old / ongoing war. This penalty will be scaled based on the relationship between the two Civs. So if you declare war on a Civ that is friendly with a 3rd Civ, the penalty will be very high. If your target is hostile with a 3rd Civ, it will be fairly low. These penalties will stack, so if you declare war on multiple Civs, you will get multiple penalties. Penalties will expire in X turns, scaled to game speed.
Declaring War without a valid Casis Belli on a Civ that is Friendly will also incur happiness penalties at home.
2) War Score: Here is how War Score would be earned:
A) Damaging an Enemy unit = 1% (does not stack with killing)
B) Killing an Enemy unit = 10% (does not stack with damage)
C) Pillaging an Enemy Improvement = 5%
D) Capturing an Enemy City = 10%
E) Capturing Enemy Capital = 50%
E) Capturing all Enemy cities = Automatic 100%
F) Violating Peace Deals (See below)
G) Violating Borders (would require movement into enemy territory without open borders and require the option of declaring war over border violations or letting it slide)
Each side's war score is balanced against the other. So if you each kill one enemy unit, you each earn 10%, thus canceled out to 0%. If you each kill an enemy unit, and you capture one of their cities, you end up with a net 10% lead in War Score.
3) Peace Negotiations:
A) White Peace: Always an option. More likely to be agreed to early in a war. Reverts any captured cities back to original control. No other additions allowed (gold, etc.) Gives a small positive diplomatic boost (ie: "You were reasonable when negotiating for peace).
B) Cities: You can demand cities that you have conquered, based on the value of the city. If a conquered city is not demanded as part of the peace deal, it reverts back to the original owner. Cannot demand Capital unless Annexing (see J, below)
C) Gold
D) Technology, with later techs being of greater value than earlier techs.
E) Resources
F) Treaties
G) Convert Religion
H) Military Production: Disallow building new units for X turns (Great idea I am stealing from some other posters, good thinking guys!)
I) Adopt Policy: Force switch from one tree to another, ie: Order to Freedom.
J) Annex: Only allowed if you have captured all enemy cities. This eliminates the Civ from the game. Gives a negative diplomatic hit with other empires, unless defending.
You could do quite a bit with this system. For example, the Huns could add a 'Conquest' trait to their UA, allowing them to attack without a valid Casus Belli and not take any happiness hits.
I think that the above ideas capture the best parts of the Paradox system and modify them to fit within CiV. I'd be interested in hearing further ideas on this.
G&K has improved the Diplomacy in CiV, but it still needs some work. Currently, Paradox games typically have the best Diplomacy model out of any strategy game, IMHO. Here is how typical Paradox diplomacy works:
1) Casus Belli: To start a 'just war,' a casus belli (Cause of war) is needed. This can include, based on the game, claim on title, claim on territory, religion, and a number of other issues. Declaring war without a valid casus belli will quickly drive up the aggressors 'bad boy' score, with serious diplomatic penalties, reputation hits, and other problems.
2) War Score: During a war, each side earns 'War Score' based on winning battles, taking territory, etc. During peace negotiations, the War Score determines who has the advantage. Getting 100% War Score basically means total defeat of the enemy. This War Score factors in all participants in the conflict.
3) Peace Negotiations: You can negotiate a 'White Peace.' This returns things to the Status quo ante bellum, ie: the state before the war. You can also demand concessions, such as territory or titles. The more war score you have, the more you can demand and the more likely the enemy is to accept.
This creates a fairly realistic, fun, and easy to understand system that is far superior to what we have ever gotten in a Civ game.
You also typically don't have 'All or Nothing Wars' or 'Eternal Wars.' In most games, you can't completely conquer an enemy even if you take all their territory. You have to do it over the course of several wars, typically.
Here is how I would improve CiV diplomacy, based on Paradox's system.
1) Casus Belli: You can gain this based on the following factors:
A) Enemy Civ settles near your borders ( say within 3 titles, ie: a city radius)
B) Enemy Civ moves units near your borders and will then refuses to withdraw (would require giving player demand, which AI already has...)
C) Enemy Civ attacks a protected or Allied City State.
D) Enemy Civ bullies a protected Civ and then refuses to stop
E) Enemy Civ spreads religion, then refuses to stop. Spreading to Holy City gives automatic Casus Belli.
F) Enemy Civ spreads religion, agrees to stop, then spreads again within X turns (Scaled to game speed)
G) Enemy Civ has different religion. Invalid starting in Industrial Era.
H) Enemy Civ attacks Civ with your religion.
I) Enemy Civ caught spying and refuses to stop.
J) Enemy Civ caught spying, agrees to stop, then spies again within X turns (Scaled to game speed)
K) Enemy Civ planning to attack (Discovered with intrigue)
L) Enemy Civ attacks a 3rd Civ that has Declaration of Friendship, Open Borders, or other treaty.
M) Civ with Defense Pact refuses to honor treaty (requires the option of refusing to honor)
N) Civ breaks any treaty early
O) Enemy Civ holds a conquered city or CS of your Civ
Each Casus Belli would only be valid for a set length of turns, scaled to game speed, in most cases. So spreading religion would give a Casus Belli for 25 turns. Capturing a city will give a Casus Belli for 100 turns.
Declaring war without a valid Casus Belli will give a major diplomatic penalty with all other Civs that know BOTH parties in the war. If you meet a new Civ, it will not care about the old / ongoing war. This penalty will be scaled based on the relationship between the two Civs. So if you declare war on a Civ that is friendly with a 3rd Civ, the penalty will be very high. If your target is hostile with a 3rd Civ, it will be fairly low. These penalties will stack, so if you declare war on multiple Civs, you will get multiple penalties. Penalties will expire in X turns, scaled to game speed.
Declaring War without a valid Casis Belli on a Civ that is Friendly will also incur happiness penalties at home.
2) War Score: Here is how War Score would be earned:
A) Damaging an Enemy unit = 1% (does not stack with killing)
B) Killing an Enemy unit = 10% (does not stack with damage)
C) Pillaging an Enemy Improvement = 5%
D) Capturing an Enemy City = 10%
E) Capturing Enemy Capital = 50%
E) Capturing all Enemy cities = Automatic 100%
F) Violating Peace Deals (See below)
G) Violating Borders (would require movement into enemy territory without open borders and require the option of declaring war over border violations or letting it slide)
Each side's war score is balanced against the other. So if you each kill one enemy unit, you each earn 10%, thus canceled out to 0%. If you each kill an enemy unit, and you capture one of their cities, you end up with a net 10% lead in War Score.
3) Peace Negotiations:
A) White Peace: Always an option. More likely to be agreed to early in a war. Reverts any captured cities back to original control. No other additions allowed (gold, etc.) Gives a small positive diplomatic boost (ie: "You were reasonable when negotiating for peace).
B) Cities: You can demand cities that you have conquered, based on the value of the city. If a conquered city is not demanded as part of the peace deal, it reverts back to the original owner. Cannot demand Capital unless Annexing (see J, below)
C) Gold
D) Technology, with later techs being of greater value than earlier techs.
E) Resources
F) Treaties
G) Convert Religion
H) Military Production: Disallow building new units for X turns (Great idea I am stealing from some other posters, good thinking guys!)
I) Adopt Policy: Force switch from one tree to another, ie: Order to Freedom.
J) Annex: Only allowed if you have captured all enemy cities. This eliminates the Civ from the game. Gives a negative diplomatic hit with other empires, unless defending.
You could do quite a bit with this system. For example, the Huns could add a 'Conquest' trait to their UA, allowing them to attack without a valid Casus Belli and not take any happiness hits.
I think that the above ideas capture the best parts of the Paradox system and modify them to fit within CiV. I'd be interested in hearing further ideas on this.
, also for AI!), hard to master (also for AI!)
