If Roman didn't crucify Jesus...
- Thread starter youtien
- Start date
After googling a little bit, I was disappointed by nothing but religious rhetoric, so I checked out reddit.com/r/historicalwhatif, which gave me a couple of ideas. One was that Jesus wasn't necessary for Christianity, and that some other Messianic leader would have filled that role. A good theory for those of us who reject the "Great Man" idea of history. But the very existence of Great People in the game seems to indicate Sid Meier's thoughts on that matter.
That being said, another interesting idea I encountered was that of Mithraism instead becoming the dominant religion of the Roman Empire. In an article entitled "Archaeological Indications on the Origins of Roman Mithraism," Lewis M. Hopfe writes that "Today more than four hundred locations of Mithraic worship have been identified in every area of the Roman Empire. Mithraea have been found as far west as England and as far east as Dura Europas. Between the second and fourth centuries C.E. Mithraism may have vied with Christianity for domination of the Roman world."
To model that in the game, sparing Jesus means you found Mithraism, killing him means you found Christianity. For the sake of simplicity, we could imagine that Eastern Orthodox Mithraism and Protestant Mithraism split off at later points in the future, so instead of having a religion screen cluttered with three new religions, we could just have the three slots for Christianity say "Roman Religion," "Orthodoxy," and "Protestantism," and when the Roman player makes their decision, "Roman Religion," will be changed to either "Mithraism," or "Christianity." The one difference would be that "Christianity" would be renamed to "Catholicism" after the Great Schism, whereas Mithraism's name would stay the same.
As far as effects of your decision go, perhaps founding Christianity could negatively affect the stability of your empire (giving the Roman player an incentive to reenact history by persecuting Christians), until you convert to Christianity, at which point it would strengthen the stability of your empire to a greater degree than it was negatively affected by the interlude between founding and conversion, a la Constantine.
Perhaps founding Mithraism could give you a cultural bonus, which would not only model a more unbroken chain of continuity of Roman religious thought, but also have the side effect of increasing the defense bonus of your cities, useful for fending off barbarian incursions. This way, both choices are attractive, and the player could select the decision which complements his/her playing style the most.
Edit: Perhaps we can make Mithraism scripted to be founded in Rome, and Christianity scripted to be founded in Jerusalem. This way, the Roman player would be incentivized to capture Jerusalem, as Christianity would be autofounded in a non-Roman Jerusalem, depriving the Romans of the opportunity to found either religion. This would also resolve the odd situation of Christianity being founded in the Medieval Age.
In vanilla Civ IV, the opportunity to found a religion was a nice incentive to tech faster than other players, but in a mod such as this which strives for historical accuracy, I think we could stand to make Christianity (or Mithraism, if Rome controls Jerusalem and spares Jesus) autofound in the 0-50 AD range. After all the game already autofounds Buddhism, and it may as well auto-found Islam and Confucianism/Daoism. While I'm on the subject, I was playing a game as the Persians last night, and I had to restart three times until Zoroastrianism was founded in Parsa. Perhaps Zoroastrianism should also be autofounded.
That being said, another interesting idea I encountered was that of Mithraism instead becoming the dominant religion of the Roman Empire. In an article entitled "Archaeological Indications on the Origins of Roman Mithraism," Lewis M. Hopfe writes that "Today more than four hundred locations of Mithraic worship have been identified in every area of the Roman Empire. Mithraea have been found as far west as England and as far east as Dura Europas. Between the second and fourth centuries C.E. Mithraism may have vied with Christianity for domination of the Roman world."
To model that in the game, sparing Jesus means you found Mithraism, killing him means you found Christianity. For the sake of simplicity, we could imagine that Eastern Orthodox Mithraism and Protestant Mithraism split off at later points in the future, so instead of having a religion screen cluttered with three new religions, we could just have the three slots for Christianity say "Roman Religion," "Orthodoxy," and "Protestantism," and when the Roman player makes their decision, "Roman Religion," will be changed to either "Mithraism," or "Christianity." The one difference would be that "Christianity" would be renamed to "Catholicism" after the Great Schism, whereas Mithraism's name would stay the same.
As far as effects of your decision go, perhaps founding Christianity could negatively affect the stability of your empire (giving the Roman player an incentive to reenact history by persecuting Christians), until you convert to Christianity, at which point it would strengthen the stability of your empire to a greater degree than it was negatively affected by the interlude between founding and conversion, a la Constantine.
Perhaps founding Mithraism could give you a cultural bonus, which would not only model a more unbroken chain of continuity of Roman religious thought, but also have the side effect of increasing the defense bonus of your cities, useful for fending off barbarian incursions. This way, both choices are attractive, and the player could select the decision which complements his/her playing style the most.
Edit: Perhaps we can make Mithraism scripted to be founded in Rome, and Christianity scripted to be founded in Jerusalem. This way, the Roman player would be incentivized to capture Jerusalem, as Christianity would be autofounded in a non-Roman Jerusalem, depriving the Romans of the opportunity to found either religion. This would also resolve the odd situation of Christianity being founded in the Medieval Age.
In vanilla Civ IV, the opportunity to found a religion was a nice incentive to tech faster than other players, but in a mod such as this which strives for historical accuracy, I think we could stand to make Christianity (or Mithraism, if Rome controls Jerusalem and spares Jesus) autofound in the 0-50 AD range. After all the game already autofounds Buddhism, and it may as well auto-found Islam and Confucianism/Daoism. While I'm on the subject, I was playing a game as the Persians last night, and I had to restart three times until Zoroastrianism was founded in Parsa. Perhaps Zoroastrianism should also be autofounded.
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
I assume this is all hypothetical? I don't see why Jesus get the special treatment. Because if Jesus spawns specifically as a Great Prophet, then:
Arabia should spawn with at least 2 Great Prophets and 2 Great Generals.
America should spawn with (including, but not limited to):
- 1 Great General: George Washington
- 1 Great Merchant: Alexander Hamilton
- 2 Great Prophets: Thomas Paine, Patrick Henry
- 3 Great Scientists: Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson (turns into an Academy in Washington), James Madison
- 1 Special Mercenary Great General (no cost, but returns to France after 8 battles): Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de La Fayette
Arabia should spawn with at least 2 Great Prophets and 2 Great Generals.
America should spawn with (including, but not limited to):
- 1 Great General: George Washington
- 1 Great Merchant: Alexander Hamilton
- 2 Great Prophets: Thomas Paine, Patrick Henry
- 3 Great Scientists: Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson (turns into an Academy in Washington), James Madison
- 1 Special Mercenary Great General (no cost, but returns to France after 8 battles): Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de La Fayette
ImNotHere
Warlord
Would these bonuses only be temporary? If founding Mithraism gives an extra defensive bonus then would it ever wear off? If by some magic means you survive into the modern age having the extra defense would be a real bonus if you wanted to re-capture the Roman empire.
Hippo8085
Shaken, not stirred
As is is fine. Like in the Conditional America thread, there is no need to put a ? on Christianity as well.
As to the Great People on spawn, we could make an excuse for pretty much any civilization to get one or two or five or nineteen.
As to the Great People on spawn, we could make an excuse for pretty much any civilization to get one or two or five or nineteen.
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
Do you play RFCE? I think you will enjoy it greatly.
The Faith Point/Crusade system is loads of fun. It also includes many religious Wonders and much more detailed Great Schism/Reformation mechanics.
In RFCE++ (a modmodmod of RFCE by Morholt) you can even play as the Teutonic Order (one of my favorites) and lead the Northern Crusades.
However, that mod is lacking developmental manpower at this moment (they don't have Leoreth). Judging by your enthusiasm perhaps you could help.
Yes, I have indeed had the opportunity to try that mod out, and there were a lot of really great aspects to it. Unfortunately, it seemed to me to be an unpolished, European version of the Sword of Islam. I'll definitely check their thread out, hopefully I'll be able to contribute something.
Pavel Chichikov
King
- Joined
- May 26, 2012
- Messages
- 674
Akh, Rome converting to Zorastrianism is fine by me.
It's worth noting that Christianity didn't really 'get going' as a major religion until the Council of Nicaea, when official church doctrine was established.
That could be something to include in the mod - religious councils like the International Congresses. You can vote for which religion is the 'right one'. and the winning religion spreads at a much faster rate? That way you can have a "what if the Romans chose Zoroastrianism instead of Christianity?" scenario. Or you could just have the council default to choosing Christianity, thus ensuring its rapid spread throughout the Med.
That could be something to include in the mod - religious councils like the International Congresses. You can vote for which religion is the 'right one'. and the winning religion spreads at a much faster rate? That way you can have a "what if the Romans chose Zoroastrianism instead of Christianity?" scenario. Or you could just have the council default to choosing Christianity, thus ensuring its rapid spread throughout the Med.
Hippo8085
Shaken, not stirred
When Christianity spreads through the Mediterranean it already happens quite rapidly. Western Europe starts with Catholic missionaries...
True, but I'm thinking pre the rise of the Western civs, and on the 3000 BC start. When playing as Rome you often find yourself without a religion until quite late in the game. Having the option to adopt Christianity en masse through a religious council would help address that.
The council mechanic could also be expanded to include the Council of Clermont, which triggered the crusades. Could be a conditional thing that after the Arabs spawn the Catholic civs get a mission to recapture Jerusalem with a gold reward? And civs have the option to vote to divert the crusade to an alternate target, as with the Fourth Crusade which ended up going to Constantinople.
The council mechanic could also be expanded to include the Council of Clermont, which triggered the crusades. Could be a conditional thing that after the Arabs spawn the Catholic civs get a mission to recapture Jerusalem with a gold reward? And civs have the option to vote to divert the crusade to an alternate target, as with the Fourth Crusade which ended up going to Constantinople.
Hippo8085
Shaken, not stirred
Okay... I always see Christianity being founded by Rome or Greece and easily spreading throughout the Mediterranean. Perhaps player Rome should put a small bit more effort into founding a religion, whether it be Catholicism or Islam. In this case as player Rome it feels like it would be a good idea to have the Temple of Solomon to make my Catholic or Islam shrine put out more.
In 3000 BC, there is a reason to take the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and the Temple of Solomon for the gold output. In 600 AD, which I play for an accurate post-Rome era (Taoism in Rome or Buddhism being the predominant religion of the Mediterranean just doesn't do it for me) Jerusalem does both these things and as the HRE it is essential to a historical victory, if someone else it is a load of money.
In 3000 BC, there is a reason to take the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and the Temple of Solomon for the gold output. In 600 AD, which I play for an accurate post-Rome era (Taoism in Rome or Buddhism being the predominant religion of the Mediterranean just doesn't do it for me) Jerusalem does both these things and as the HRE it is essential to a historical victory, if someone else it is a load of money.
By the way I could use GPs on start to a limited degree, especially great generals (Mongols, Prussia, America come to mind). Arabia could start with a great prophet, especially after the Moors are added who would then likely grab the Mezquita.
Pavel Chichikov
King
- Joined
- May 26, 2012
- Messages
- 674
Or Orthodoxy. With dynamic religion names it could determine a whole range of obscure possibilities like Arianism.
I like this idea. Also on Missionaries, Norse Catholic Missionaries are completely unecessary now, they usually they convert before 900 AD now.
Are Moors really being added? Seriously?
I mean I'm all for new Civs, but these are about the very last Civ I expected, after say... 'Do you Want to Take Control of The Luxemborg Civiliazation'? I can see the reasons though, North Africa being one of the biggest voids in RFC, it's usually up for grabs for just about anyone. The spawn would have to be conditional though imo.
Related note: One thing I've never understood is why Spanish spawn so early. Since RFC first came out I could never think of one single reason why, for either gameplay or historical reasons.
Because spawning them after Reconquista is impossibru for the UHV.
Then again, Spain does not simply existed because of Reconquista, as England does not simply existed because of William the Conqueror..
Y'know that that Galatians is Gaul rights? Carthage was a major city in early Christianity.
Awesome
Arianism is still Christian.
Luxembourg isn't even a tile whereas the Moors controlled most of Iberia
Yes, but Galatians are Gaul from Thrace, not France
I don't really remember the mechanic now, but isn't if one founded a religion, one get 3 missionaries of that religion?
If Independent found the religion, all 3 missionaries will be independent's and can't spread religion thanks to no open borders mechanic..
Then if coincidentally Rome conquered Persia and Zoroastrianism is the only religion across the vast Roman Empire, Rome will be Zoroastrian~
Similar threads
