Prize Ship promotion

Arksa · Jul 19, 2012

It seems way too powerful. AI just can't handle my Sea Beggars/Privateers and suddenly their armada is mine.

Should it be changed? It's a bit too obvious promotion just to abuse the quite poor naval AI and I don't think it is very balanced. Just felt wrong stealing AIs main naval force in 4-5 turns.

At least it shouldn't last after you upgrade them.

mitsho · Jul 19, 2012

Agreed, it's very powerful. But maybe simply lowering the chance might fix it.

Thibaulthc · Jul 19, 2012

privateer should lose the prom
maybe not sea beggars
chances should be lowered? I agree. I think something like 60% would be better.
I also noted that I never saw an AI take my ship, it just destroys it? Am i wrong? Didn't happen often as I don't let any unit under deadly threath, but I think there's a bug there.

Briefly: I second a nerf on that promotion. 60-70% chances, upgraded privateers lose it.

Ahriman · Jul 19, 2012

Yeah, I think it's too strong and too biased towards the human player rather than the AI.
I tend to think that unit capture mechanics should be only the province of UAs or UUs, (like Ottomans/Germany/Sea Beggar).

So my first inclination would be to remove it from the Privateer and leave it on the sea-beggar.
[If this option is taken, I'd also lean towards renaming the Privateer into Galleon, which really makes more sense; galleons were common, privateers were rare and were never a large part of navies.]

But leaving it on the Privateer would also be ok if it was made into a silver promotion that was lost on upgrade.

I think I'd lean away from just messing with the probabilities; that might end up being frustrating.

GenjiKhan · Jul 19, 2012

I think it'd be better to try to improve naval ai instead removing the Prize ship promotion . If such thing is not even possible,then I guess it might be better to change it in a way where the player receives :c5gold:

instead converting the enemy unit .

Thalassicus · Jul 19, 2012

We can't improve the naval AI with mods, so I think our best recourse is to limit the promotion to the Ottoman trait. I don't think we can change its effect to gold. Combat related stuff is usually in the game core only Firaxis has access to.

headcase · Jul 24, 2012

Prize Ships are a lot of fun, but yeah, it's hard to ignore the player-AI balance issue there.

The question turns to what else Privateers can get. There should be something interesting about them, not just a strength boost. Maybe, like Lancers in the other thread, they can heal after kills?

wobuffet · Jul 24, 2012

headcase said:
The question turns to what else Privateers can get. There should be something interesting about them, not just a strength boost. Maybe, like Lancers in the other thread, they can heal after kills?

I'd support this.

Alternatively, if possible, a "medic" promotion line available on one class of ships (helping adjacent naval units by either boosting HP healed per turn or enabling slow healing outside of friendly territory, even without Supply) would be interesting too.

Ahriman · Jul 25, 2012

Maybe, like Lancers in the other thread, they can heal after kills?

I don't think heal-after-kill makes any sense for lancers, but I think it does for Privateers. And it would also be really useful for privateers; one of the big problems with melee naval ships is precisely the problem that they take damage every time they attack, unlike ranged naval.
And there is a good realism rationalization; they're capturing supplies and prisoners and vessels that they're using to reinforce their own power.

I like it.

Seek · Jul 25, 2012

The heal-after-kill mechanic has thus far only been used for enslaving enemies, iirc, so I agree with Ahriman that it doesn't fit on the Lancer. I could see it being possibly used for all melee naval units with the Boarding Party promotion (maybe BP II or III), giving the Privateer a lump gold sum on kill to differentiate it.

Back to the Lancer: Can the Lancer get a large bonus XP boost on kill? That's the only other idea I can think of atm to make the Lancer more focused on chasing wounded enemies ... Though now that I said that, perhaps the Lancer could start with Charge (+33% vs wounded units in G&K).

Ahriman · Jul 25, 2012

I could see it being possibly used for all melee naval units with the Boarding Party promotion (maybe BP II or III), giving the Privateer a lump gold sum on kill to differentiate it.

This also sounds interesting; this would be a good way reducing one of the main problems with naval melee units overall. And have the anti-city promotions give gold yield from damage done.

The one thing though that I don't remember offhand; how does the AI use naval units? Does it know enough to use the ranged units first, then bring in the melee guys? Logically it should, but if it doesn't, then stacking up lots of bonuses on melee kill is going to be a problem.

Though now that I said that, perhaps the Lancer could start with Charge (+33% vs wounded units in G&K).

This would make the most sense to me. Very good offensively vs wounded units, but weak on defense, so needs to be used as hit and run.

headcase · Jul 25, 2012

Nice ideas for the Lancer here. 33% vs wounded gives it some use. Maybe throw in an extra movement point, or less penalty for rough? I don't find myself building them much in vanilla.

Or if they aren't given the movement bonus, could give them bushido... that one's a pretty random idea.

GenjiKhan · Jul 25, 2012

I'd choose Charge promotion over The heal-after-kill,but there is a gameplay problem here . My original idea is to give them a Charge promotion against enemies with less than +30 HP,but I suppose it would be just too complicated to implement that . Plus,even Charge(the modified one or the original),Lancers wouldn't differenciate so much from Cavalry and they would become just an inferior version of Cavalry(even a free Charge promotion and +1 movement for them wouldn't change this situation so much) . I recognize the problems related to give them that promotion(The heal-after-kill),but it's the only way I found to make them different enough from Cavalry and to give them a very specific role in combat,that matches with their function in RL(It wasn't common to use them against full armies,but rather,against scattered armies that are trying to flee from battlefield) .

Ahriman · Jul 25, 2012

Well, the problem is somewhat inherent having two separate mounted units in the same era, on different upgrade lines.

But I think there is some differentiation with cavalry that can still play a screening role (eg to prevent you hitting my cannons) and lancers that are strictly offensive.

And cavalry do have a higher tech requirement.

GenjiKhan · Jul 25, 2012

Ahriman said:
But I think there is some differentiation with cavalry that can still play a screening role (eg to prevent you hitting my cannons) and lancers that are strictly offensive.

And cavalry do have a higher tech requirement.

The problem is: Everything that you can do with Lancer now,you can do it better with Cavalry . And the higher tech requirement isn't enough to make them more useful . Aside from the idea of "heal after kill",there aren't many other ways to make Lancers more useful in combat,without overlapping it with the current role of Cavalry .

mitsho · Jul 25, 2012

Aren't Lancer's faster than Cavalry though? Which doesn't mean much since the battlefield is usually too crowded to use that effectively...

The heal after kill might be strong and flavourful. And it certainly is better than giving them move-after-attack which might result in immunity...

Ahriman · Jul 25, 2012

Lancer can be faster and can be anti-cav (though I find that a weird design), and I do think the tech requirement difference matters (I could see myself going up the military line as far as lancers, and then concentrating on economy techs).

The heal after kill might be strong and flavourful.

How is this flavorful? I literally don't see what this is supposed to represent.

I definitely think lancers should have move after attack. That is what mounted units are for.

mitsho · Jul 25, 2012

oh not realistic, but heal-after-kill is rare, I think only the Jaguar and the Persian Immortal have it, right? It's also not reachable per promotion, thus might be "fun to have in the game". I know, a very weak argument.

Isn't move after attack to strong, as you can do a hit and run then quite easily. Though I have to confess I'm not too sure on that

Ahriman · Jul 25, 2012

I think only the Jaguar and the Persian Immortal have it, right?

I think my out-of-dateness and faction preferences are showing; didn't the Immortal have faster healing (not heal after kill) and didn't Janissiaries have heal after kill?
But just because it is rare doesn't seem to me to be a reason to add it to a regular unit, and I don't see any flavor value.

Isn't move after attack to strong, as you can do a hit and run then quite easily.

Hit and run is what mounted units are for - lancers in particular. Mounted units have always had move after attack, no? That's why you need a strategic resource for them.

GenjiKhan · Jul 25, 2012

Ahriman said:
Hit and run is what mounted units are for - lancers in particular. Mounted units have always had move after attack, no? That's why you need a strategic resource for them.

You see . That's what I'm saying . Currently,EVERTHING you can do with Lancers,you can do it better with Cavalry . Lancers pretty much overlap all the functions of Cavalry(with the exception of attacking mounted units,which is their specialization,that's still not so good enough),while they are weaker than this unit . For that reason that most of the people point them as the most useless unit in the game .

I just wished to say that,if people want to suggest something to improve lancers,then this suggestion should fulfill these 3 requirements:

- Such function should make them different enough of Cavalry,to avoid overlapping . Overlapping would weaken Lancers role,because it can be easily replaced by Cavalry;
- Such function needs to be strong enough to justify building them,without making them more powerful than Rifleman/Cavalry;
- Such function needs to somehow,represents their role in RL,that is charging against scattered units in the battlefield;

My suggestion(heal after kills) can fulfill these 3 requirements . I wish to know if another suggestion could be better at doing the same thing .

Prize Ship promotion

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