Rome Overhaul

Rome Overhaul

I think it's high time that Rome undergoes a complete overhaul. UHV and UP in particular.

== Reasoning ==

(1) This is the natural next step in the evolution of DoC.

Since the inception of DoC, many civs have undergone complete overhauls. Most prominent among these are Japan, China, England, and the Netherlands. These civs enjoy new, very strong and interesting UPs as well as more challenging UHVs. Other civs have their UPs remain the same as in original RFC, but receive much more interesting UHVs than before, for example Russia, Spain, and Turkey.

However, Rome's UHVs have remained the same, except a qualitative change in the expansion UHV. By contrast, Rome's close neighbors Carthage and Greece have received major changes including much more challenging UHVs.

(2) The current Roman UHVs can clearly be made more interesting.

Most egregious among these are the "Not loose a single city to Barbarians before 1000" UHV. This kind of UHV is a tedious waiting game, which is why the "Not loose a single city before 1930" UHV of Russia was replaced.

If Russia deserves more interesting UHVs then obviously so does Rome.

Personally I don't think the Aqueducts - Amphitheatres - Barracks UHV is very interesting either. It's kind of ironic that other civs are required to build Cathedrals and Wonders while Rome is required to build basic infrastructure which you have to build anyway.

(3) The current Roman UP is mostly a crutch to compensate for the AI's ineptitude.

AI Greece receive free conquerors too, and (in a most spectacular fashion) so does AI Mongolia. And yet Human Greece and Human Mongolia are expected to do without such artificial crutches. Why should Human Rome be the exception? I'm sure it's not because Rome is supposed to be easier and require less skill to play than Greece or Mongolia?

On the other hand the Roman UP can easily be abused by the Human player which lead to disgustingly unrealistic scenarios. You can start the Punic War several centuries earlier than historical, without even bothering with a navy. How exactly is that fun? In reality the Romans had to wrestle naval supremacy from the Carthaginians. The current Roman UP in the hands of a Human player thus invalidates one of the most arduous and triumphant struggles in Roman history.

==Ideas and Proposals==

The general idea is this: Keep the Mandate Army conquerors for AI Rome only. Apart from that, design a new and more interesting UP for Rome (my ideas listed in the next post). To simulate Rome's inexhaustible manpower we merely need to tweak its UU (ideas detailed below) - there is absolutely no need for an UP which gives free units. On top of these, we shall also have more challenging and up-to-date UHVs (in line with the new Greek and Carthaginian UHVs).

==UU==

Rome's UU is awesome - that's a basic fact known to all Civ IV players. However, the current Mandate Army UP actually makes Legions less enjoyable to use: Legion, a high base Strength unit, is most effective when highly Promoted (e.g. with City Raider line of Promotions, and possibly Shock and Cover). And yet the Mandate Army UP gives you completely unpromoted n00b Legions which often loose embarrassingly to Shock Axes.

In place of Mandate Armies, we could simply do one or several of the following:
- Make Legions cost less. Currently it costs more than normal Swordsman.
- Make Legions buildable with in addition to , same as Levy. Historical Legions are levied from Roman citizens, whereas most of Rome's enemies relied on mercenaries. That is the source of Rome's seemingly inexhaustible manpower.
- And overall discount in unit production for Rome, especially Naval units. Players have reported difficulty with raising a navy in time, which is one of the reasons Mandate Army was implemented.
- There could also be cheap, always available Naval mercenaries for Rome. Historically Romans relied heavily on her Greek, Egyptian, and Phoenician subjects to provide for her navy.

Additionally, there is a tweak to Legion which I've long experimented with and can confirm works well with both Human and AI Rome:
- Legions able to build Roads and Forts.

== UP ==

As for the Roman UP, I consider the primary aims to be two-fold:

(1) That it encourages conquering/expanding by providing tangible benefits to conquering/expanding, like the Persian and English UPs, rather than merely make conquering easier, like the Mongolia UP.

Historically, Rome is more like Persia and England in that they were able to hold their empire in prosperity for a very long time, not merely for conquering a lot and then quickly collapsing. Building a large empire brought Rome tremendous material wealth, as well as an influx of new ideas and cultures.

(2) That it characterizes Rome's centralized organization, in contrast with China, India, or America. Rome started as a single city. Throughout its rise to world domination, the city of Rome is the beating heart of the empire and enjoyed unparalleled privileges over the colonies, or even other cities within Italy itself.

Hence Rome's UP should make the city Rome itself great. Ideally Rome should become the largest and most prosperous city in the ancient world like it was historically, despite AI settling Napoli and Milan choking it off.

==UP Ideas==

(A) The Glory of Rome
Civ V Roman UP. Buildings which exist in Rome are constructed +30% faster in all your cities. This is effectively Organized Religion without a State Religion, and allows for faster growth of your newly conquered/founded cities.

(B) The Power of Imperialism
You get +0.5 , +2.5 in Rome for every city you own outside of it. This represents the influx of wealth and material into the city from its colonies. It's comparable to an early form of Corporation, as well as the Dutch UP. It would encourage you to expand.

(C) The Power of Assimilation
When you conquer or vassalize a civ, you obtain all of its Techs. If the civ does not have any Tech which you don't already have, you receive a random Great Person instead. This represents how Rome readily adopted the philosophies and technologies of the peoples it conquered, most prominently the Greeks and Egyptians.

==UHV==
The expansion UHV obviously stays. It will become less of a burden and more fun with a new UP which provides tangible benefits for conquering (several ideas listed above). What should be replaced are the Infrastructure UHV and obviously, the not loose cities to barbs UHV. Ideas:

- Be the first to discover Machinery, Engineering, Civil Service, and Constitution, before 1000 AD;

- Have the highest GNP, Approval Rating, and Life Expectancy some time between 100 AD and 180 AD (Five Good Emperors);

==Wonders==

- There should be a Wonder which brings back the original Roman Roads UP of RFC. Perhaps this could be a side effect of Colosseum, while the base effect of Colosseum gets decreased a little.

- Hadrian's Wall. Requires Machinery, Walls. All your units receive +25% Strength vs. Barbarians.

Let me propose a shameless copycat idea from Civ V: Every building constructed in your capital is cheaper in all your other cities.

More interesting might be something depending on conquest. What about 200 gold per city conquered? It will provide masses of gold (and thus research) for Rome, which will eventually run out and thus result in an economic standstill and ultimately collapse.

strijder20 said:

More interesting might be something depending on conquest. What about 200 gold per city conquered? It will provide masses of gold (and thus research) for Rome, which will eventually run out and thus result in an economic standstill and ultimately collapse.

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That is quite realistic and one of the first things I thought of too, but it has the problem of being part of the Viking UP.

I've always wanted a Hadrian's Wall wonder. As described, it would have to be cheap to be worth it IMO, as you get the same bonus from fortification. How about +15% great general emergence as well?

As for the road movement wonder, there's no need to decrease the effects of the Colosseum. How about a new wonder, the Appian Way?

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Constitution, although historical, is a bet far into the tech tree. Rome should have collapsed before the Renaissance, and preferably before 1167, as that's when the Italians spawn. When they do, they don't even have Constitution. I'm all for tech requirements, but let's be realistic.

Perhaps instead of some meaningless stats, we could give Rome a wonder requirement? Something like "Build Hadrian's Wall, The Colosseum and the Appian Way before x date"? Or better yet: "Control three wonders built by other Civilizations by x date and build Hadrian's Wall, The Colosseum and the Appian Way before x date"? It would be entertaining, but it might be putting a bit too much trust in the AI.

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UP 3 is the best of the three, but I'm not certain it would balance well. I see 2 as a great way to effectively lower maintenance costs, but not by much. 1 would best work if the building requirement was still in effect, but mostly after the land requirement has been filled I spend most of my time building legions to defend against barbarians. Here are some of my ideas:

The Power of Pax Romana: Extra stability OR Half maintenance for owning the entirety of another civ.

It assists players in capturing the other civs and achieving the land requirement faster, and at less of a loss of stability.


The Power of Bribery: Barbarians in your territory can be bought as mercenaries.

It actually happened, and it would help with the onslaught of barbs after the Mediterranean conquest. Players with large treasuries profit, and those with small treasuries are probably on their way to completing the research goal faster.


The Power of Conscription: Free unit for conquering a city.

That free unit would either be what you get from the current draft system, or a Legion. I'm partial for the first option, as the second would become overpowered. That being said, it is quite similar to the Mongol UP, and could seem stale.


The Power of Assimilation: You can build the UU of conquered/vassalized civilizations.

This also simulates Rome's absorption of foreign cultures in a unique and interesting way. It's useful, but not too useful, and it would be quite fun to use.

I agree that Rome needs an overhaul. Especially the UP really can be replaced now that the Greek and Tamil conquerors have broken the previous paradigm that made them necessary.

Regarding the UHV, I don't have a problem with the infrastructure goal, because urban development actually was a Roman accomplishment ("Aside from the barracks, aqueducts and amphitheatres, what have the Romans ever done for us?" ). But you're right, the last goal really ought to be replaced. My own idea was something related to the spread of Christianity around the Mediterranean, but a tech goal is appropriate too. Maybe with Theology instead of Constitution.

I agree with your idea that the UP should reflect either the centralization of Roman administration or the fact that their economy depended on expansion. So I like both ideas pertaining to the city of Rome itself. Another idea I've seen on these boards is to grant them a golden age for every civ they destroy or vassalize (or if that is too much, some amount of gold).

The changes to Legions sound good too, especially the cost decrease. Not sure about using food, though. Did giving Legions the ability to build improvements change their AI behavior somehow? I don't want to see them going around building roads everywhere. That said, it's also possible to bring back the old UP by allowing them to build Roman roads specifically, which in turn give the increased movement. Because I'm not really willing to introduce extra wonders for the Mediterranean region.

Leoreth said:

I agree that Rome needs an overhaul. Especially the UP really can be replaced now that the Greek and Tamil conquerors have broken the previous paradigm that made them necessary.

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Yes! My point exactly. Building and deploying your Legions personally is major part of the fun. Mandate Armies removes that.

Locutus_Morti said:

Constitution, although historical, is a bet far into the tech tree. I'm all for tech requirements, but let's be realistic.

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Leoreth said:

A tech goal is appropriate too. Maybe with Theology instead of Constitution.

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To replace the no city lost before 1000AD goal with a Tech goal, I thought a Tech which is hard to get before 1000 AD should be included. Hence I considered Nationalism and Constitution. Constitution is better IMO because it represents the supreme achievements and influence of Roman Law. And because both Roman leader's favorite civic in BTS was Representation.

Gameplay-wise, if Rome survives past 500 AD with a decent economy, its Tech rate is unparalleled by even China or India. Constitution by 1000AD is entirely doable.

Perhaps instead of some meaningless stats, we could give Rome a wonder requirement?

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Regarding the UHV, I don't have a problem with the infrastructure goal, because urban development actually was a Roman accomplishment ("Aside from the barracks, aqueducts and amphitheatres, what have the Romans ever done for us?" ).

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Well it's not a bad UHV. I just think it could be made more flexible/scalable. I'd prefer implicit incentives for Rome to build up infrastructure, than explicitly making it a UHV. Please let me explain:

- A highest Approval Rating/Life Expectancy requirement give strong incentives for you to build infrastructure. Combined with the highest GNP, it would represent Rome's extremely high standard of living.

- The Glory of Rome UP makes infrastructure in your cities cheaper, so it's another form of incentive for you to build them.

- The Power of Imperialism UP makes Rome itself a high pop city, making state-of-the-art infrastructure a necessity.

- While the Amphitheaters and Aqueducts are the most iconic of Roman structures, Roman infrastructure went much beyond that. Theatres )), Lighthouses health, the Forum UB itself )), are all very historical and boosts either or . Hence, the highest Approval Rating and Life Expectancy UHV idea.

- I feel the "5 of each" quantity in the infrastructure UHV removes the possibility of a different play style, which is to start conquering beyond 4 cities later than 200 AD. The expansion UHV is already there, so I fail to see why an additional requirement to have 5 cities should be added.

Locutus_Morti said:

The Power of Pax Romana: Extra stability OR Half maintenance for owning the entirety of another civ.

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This is very necessary for the maintenance of a large empire, and spiritually a cross between the Persian and English UPs. But unlike the Persian and English UPs we can easily make this a hidden boost - Mongolia is the most prominent receiver of hidden boosts similar to this.

The Power of Assimilation: You can build the UU of conquered/vassalized civilizations.

This also simulates Rome's absorption of foreign cultures in a unique and interesting way. It's useful, but not too useful, and it would be quite fun to use.

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Indeed it would be fun and realistic, but gameplay-wise it's largely redundant, as Legion > All. The only exception I can think of is Bireme, which can be represented with cheap Bireme mercenaries.

Leoreth said:

Another idea I've seen on these boards is to grant them a golden age for every civ they destroy or vassalize (or if that is too much, some amount of gold).

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- A GA is roughly 2.5 GPs. My proposed "Power of Assimilation" UP is roughly 1 GP per civ conquered.

- The GA idea can be balanced by making the GAs last less than its usual length. However, to make this UP not disastrous the effect of GA on Economic Stability needs to be fixed (has it?).

The changes to Legions sound good too, especially the cost decrease. Not sure about using food, though. Did giving Legions the ability to build improvements change their AI behavior somehow? I don't want to see them going around building roads everywhere. That said, it's also possible to bring back the old UP by allowing them to build Roman roads specifically, which in turn give the increased movement. Because I'm not really willing to introduce extra wonders for the Mediterranean region.

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- Legion cost decrease will amount to what Mandate Army does, except that it gives the player more control.

- Building with Food will help deal with Unhappiness, but might cripple the AI's economy (AIs may build Levies in pop 1 cities).

- AI behavior is indeed changed with the build Roads/Forts code - I see AI using Legions to build Roads (screenshot coming up shortly). It's nothing excessive though - they don't build Roads into Russia or anything.

- If you don't want extra Mediterranean Wonder, then perhaps the Roman Roads UP can be made a side effect of Colosseum Wonder.

Currently, Colosseum is quite late (unless you Oracle into Construction, which you shouldn't - you should Oracle into Currency). By the time you build it, at least half your Legions should already have been built. Suggestion:

Colosseum
- +1 per 10% rate (Assuming the Power of Imperialism UP is chosen);
- +25% Military unit production, +2 XP;
- Double movement on Roads within Cultural Borders (effect obsoletes with Engineering);

Just my $.02 here, but I really don't like the Highest Approval Rating/Longest Life Expectancy goal, since any efficient game will see you near the bottom of both lists. Both of these demographics are determined by how much *spare* health/happiness you have beyond what your population requires. A bunch of size 1 cities with no improvements but access to a decent number of resources give you high scores, but any number of larger, developed cities that are at or near their caps give you low scores. It's one thing for a goal to encourage a strange style of play, but it's quite another to require you to purposely nerf yourself...

Can anyone name something that Roman civilization invented and not plundered? Economy of Roma was pillage and exploitation economy and Empire started to decline when there were not any civilizations left to conquer. New Rome UB should be: city of Rome benefits for to have large Empire (more cities). City of Rome declined significantly when large parts of Empire were lost.

For UV I suggest:
- Current have x cities in place y makes me feel that I am actually building Roman Empire so it should not be changed.
- (new) make city of Rome greatest city on Mediterranean sea, population, culture, economy.
- Current have 5 amphitheaters, aqueduct and barracks is bit silly because you dont need them (expect barracks). This could be replaced with wonders for example.

calad said:

Can anyone name something that Roman civilization invented and not plundered?

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I do agree with you that the Romans were better students than innovators. They cannot compare with the Greeks, English, or Germans in terms of great thinkers and inventors, but you still give them far too little credit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_technology#Technologies_invented_or_developed_by_the_Romans
My favorite among these is concrete.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_law
Which country are you from? If it's not a former British colony (Common Law), chances are that your country's laws are based on Roman Law.

Economy of Roma was pillage and exploitation economy and Empire started to decline when there were not any civilizations left to conquer. New Rome UB should be: city of Rome benefits for to have large Empire (more cities). City of Rome declined significantly when large parts of Empire were lost.

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My proposed Power of Imperialism does exactly that.

- (new) make city of Rome greatest city on Mediterranean sea, population, culture, economy.

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The UHVs of Byzantium, Moors, France and Thais feature this style of goals already. And to a lesser extent, Prussians & Netherlands too.

- Current have 5 amphitheaters, aqueduct and barracks is bit silly because you dont need them (expect barracks). This could be replaced with wonders for example.

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I agree.

Caesar Augustus said:

Just my $.02 here, but I really don't like the Highest Approval Rating/Longest Life Expectancy goal, since any efficient game will see you near the bottom of both lists. Both of these demographics are determined by how much *spare* health/happiness you have beyond what your population requires. A bunch of size 1 cities with no improvements but access to a decent number of resources give you high scores, but any number of larger, developed cities that are at or near their caps give you low scores. It's one thing for a goal to encourage a strange style of play, but it's quite another to require you to purposely nerf yourself...

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That is why I combined "Highest GNP" with it. If you deliberately nerf yourself you won't have highest GNP. I thought playing for high Health/Happiness might be interesting for a change, but apparently not.

I got to say though, if you play as Japan or Mughals for UHV, your Approval Rating should usually be 1st during your Culture Mongering phase.

Having the highest Approval Rating is actually quite easy without nerfing yourself. Just build theatres & amphitheatres in all you cities, and turn the Culture Slider to 100%. That is what I'm trying to implicitly encourage with this UHV - the building of infrastructures, without explicitly requiring you to build X number of infrastructure buildings. Perhaps we should change it to "Having the highest Population, GNP, and Approval Rating in year X". Would that be better?

Historically, the Romans are famous for their gladiators, circus, race tracks, triumphal marches, and other public cultural events which the emperors used to keep the populace pacified. It is similar to how modern American populace are pacified by their mass media entertainment. I wish to see that as this aspect of interaction between culture and political stability fascinates me.

Originally Posted by calad
Can anyone name something that Roman civilization invented and not plundered?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_t..._by_the_Romans
My favorite among these is concrete.

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Looks like somebody just got faced

I completely agree with your suggestions for Legions. I also like the UP ideas, however some of them strike me as OP particularly The Power of Imperialism, a well developed player empire would create an insane Hyper-Rome. I think that a variation of that power that accounts for the commerce outputs and food yields of the conquered city. Much better rewards for conquering Babylon as opposed to Konya or one of those horrible desert or tundra locations the A.I love so much. It is also my opinion that conquest based benefits should decrease over time there are only so many riches to plunder in a city after all.

^ I messed up the formatting in his quote there, which affected your quote. "I do agree ... better students than innovators ... far too little credit." was added by me and not in his original quote.

The +0.5 , +2.5 per city outside of Rome is actually measured after some thought. I think this boost will be comparable to the Dutch UP, or a full fledged Trading Company in general, and yet it only applies to one city, so I don't think it's that OP.

With Capitalism, a Grassland Plain Town near River (no Levee) is +2 , +8 . The Power of Imperialism, with a total of 16 cities outside Rome (which is more than large enough to win Domination as you can easily gain many vassals), gives +8 , +40 , which is between 4 and 5 Grassland Towns. Your late game supercities (such as Chicago) can easily have 10 Grassland Towns. Trading Company can give more than +10 , +32 with a Domination England or a decently played Netherlands.

Perhaps it can be changed to +0.5 , +2 per city. I actually considered between the two and went with +2.5 . Of course this is all theory - best way to see if it's OP is to test it in game as both AI Rome and Human Rome.

Finally, anyone who plays England often will know that a monstrous economy will not help you tech faster once your empire is big enough. This is the trick behind the Power of Imperialism UP - if you wish to take full advantage of it, you will expand to the point where your Tech is actually slowed down. It might be counteracted by stacking Academy + Wall Street + CERN in Rome, but those don't affect UHV, or even Domination (Rome should win Dom way before or shortly after Corporations, should you go for Dom), so the only situation it might be unbalanced is Space Race. Space Race as Rome or China is super easy mode anyway.

iOnlySignIn said:

I do agree with you that the Romans were better students than innovators. They cannot compare with the Greeks, English, or Germans in terms of great thinkers and inventors, but you still give them far too little credit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_technology#Technologies_invented_or_developed_by_the_Romans
My favorite among these is concrete.

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Hm, I agreed. I dont want to give too little credit but Roman civilization lasted thousand year and comparing time and progress it cannot be said to be very succesfull. Most of their technology is copied or updated. Roman law? Very good but they also were worst kind of despots.

My opinion is that early cities are way too healthy and happy which is reason why 5 amphitheaters, aqueduct and barracks goal is silly currently.

A monstrous economy isn't hard to achieve with most major civs the real problem is having a surplus at 100% I still think scaling based on the city and how long it has been under your control is a good idea. But for the most part I agree with you. On a slightly related topic I think the other UP you suggested for buying off barbs is more of a Byzantine thing.

Hm, I agreed. I dont want to give too little credit but Roman civilization lasted thousand year and comparing time and progress it cannot be said to be very succesfull. Most of their technology is copied or updated. Roman law? Very good but they also were worst kind of despots.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerva%E2%80%93Antonine_dynasty#Five_Good_Emperors

Worst kind of despots? not quite, although here were some nut jobs in there *cough* *cough* Nero *cough* cough* The Romans were more innovator than inventor i'll give you that. I also agree with you completely on the infrastructure goal.

iOnlySignIn said:

However, to make this UP not disastrous the effect of GA on Economic Stability needs to be fixed (has it?).

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Not yet, but I intend to.

Caesar Augustus said:

Just my $.02 here, but I really don't like the Highest Approval Rating/Longest Life Expectancy goal, since any efficient game will see you near the bottom of both lists. Both of these demographics are determined by how much *spare* health/happiness you have beyond what your population requires. A bunch of size 1 cities with no improvements but access to a decent number of resources give you high scores, but any number of larger, developed cities that are at or near their caps give you low scores. It's one thing for a goal to encourage a strange style of play, but it's quite another to require you to purposely nerf yourself...

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Agreed. I originally wanted to make something like that for Indonesia but then realized how silly it was from a gameplay perspective.

iOnlySignIn said:

Having the highest Approval Rating is actually quite easy without nerfing yourself. Just build theatres & amphitheatres in all you cities, and turn the Culture Slider to 100%. That is what I'm trying to implicitly encourage with this UHV - the building of infrastructures, without explicitly requiring you to build X number of infrastructure buildings. Perhaps we should change it to "Having the highest Population, GNP, and Approval Rating in year X". Would that be better?

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Yeah, it would be better, but I'm still not sure how I feel about it. I'll admit that I hadn't thought about using culture that way since I rarely do (my natural tendency is to max tech to the extent possible) so this does become more reasonable. But obviously you'd be turning up the culture slider for maybe a turn or two right near the end and hoping it's enough to get you ahead of whoever is currently #1. It is kind of funny, now that it comes to mind, that there hasn't yet been an explicit happiness UHV, only ones implied by population goals.