Bienvenidos a nuestros nuevos companeros! Estamos muy feliz y orgullosos que eligieron a juntar a nuestro equipo. Nos encanto jugar con ustedes. Ustedes realmente son un grupo muy chidos y divertidos. Esperamos que tengamos mas chances de jugar juntos en el futuro.
Hay algunos momentos en cuando decimos cosas contra su equipo, especialmente despues que declararon la guerra contra nuestro equipo. Pero esperamos que ustedes no se enojan con nosotros. Los chistes no eran con mal intencion. Si tienen alguna pregunta para nosotros acerca algo que hicimos o dijimos, preguntanos y les damos la mejor respuesta que podemos.
...English...
Welcome to our new companions! We are very happy and proud that you chose to join our team. We loved playing with you. You really are a very cool and fun group . We hope to have more chances to play together in the future .
There were some moments when we said things about your team, especially when things got emotional after you declared war on our team, that may be unpleasant for you to read. We decided not to edit the thread, as it is a historical evidence how we felt at that time We hope that you will not take it personal and that we will be able to laugh together about our difficult past soon! Welcome again and please let us know if you have any questions.
...
Original Post:
I'm just bringing this discussion into this thread to make it easier to refer back to in the future.
I can help translate messages into Spanish. I prefer not to be an ambassador though, or craft messages myself. My Spanish grammar and spelling can be pretty bad, so I encourage someone to look over my translations before sending them off, whenever possible. Here is my rough and simplified translation of talonchilds message:
Spoiler:
It pleases our peoples to make your esteemed acquaintance, and we would hope our jubilation echoes in your halls. The prospect of peace and friendship for both our nations is a most happy one. We inquire as to when we may receive assurances of your similar joyous intent.
It has come to our notice that both our nations possess the means to fight. In order to avoid such a tragedy, we would like to formalize a non-aggression pact with your government. Kindly give notice if this would meet with your approval.
To strengthen that pact, we believe it may prove wise to come to a gentleman's agreement on the matter of territorial division. To avoid undignified outrage in future, we propose to postpone such division until such time as both parties have better information regarding said territory.
We look forward to your prompt response.
Nos da mucho gusto en conocer a su equipo muy estimado, y esperamos que ustedes tambien se siente nuestra alegria. El prospecto de amistad y cooperacion entre nuestras naciones nos da mucha felicidad. Esperamos oir su respuesta para saber si tambien tienen nuestras intenciones pacificas.
Es claro que los dos tenemos la capacidad de pelear, pero preferimos evitar esta tragedia. Les gustarian firmar un pacto de no agresion con nuestro equipo?
Para mejorar nuestra cooperacion, pensamos que seria sabio entrar en acuerdo sobre el territorio en medio de nuestros equipos. Le sugerimos que esperamos hasta que los dos tenemos mejor informacion de estas tierras antes de entrar en este acuerdo.
I browsed through Spanish Polys Demogame sign-up thread today trying to get a feel for whether they like role-playing. I didnt see a lot in there about story-telling, but here are some observations, in no particular order:
Most of the thread was (understandably) related to the Spanish Mod (APTMod) and how to convince the other teams to use it.
They are very proud of their mod and could not understand all the objections based on obscure, unlikely scenarios. They were especially confused by the request to make sure the mod would allow altering the turn order. The response on their thread was something like Sure, we could do that, but that would mean a double-move, which is exactly what were trying to prevent, right???
They seem to view us and RB as the leaders of this game. When someone mentioned that a French team had joined and suggested sending them a French overview of the APTMod, the response was along the lines of No need, just let the Americans (RB and CFC) decide whether were going to use the mod or not.
The mentality of most seemed to be Lets play regardless of the particular rules. This is our chance to show the international Civ community that were just as good as any of them.
I think we should refer to them as the Spanish Community, as they seem to play some games on todocivilization and some on Apolyton. I was specifically looking for a reference to what they call themselves, and this was the closest I could get.
Some seem to have a bad taste from a previous game they played with other sites, in which they felt they lost because they were stabbed in the back, and now seem to assume that other sites do not place value on agreements.
They worried about the diplomacy aspect and having to keep up with diplomacy in English. They were turned off by the long posts in the planning thread.
The translation is mostly fine, a couple of minor glitches that could be cleaned up pretty easily. For example at the very end, "pronta respuesta" has the form adjective noun, where it should be noun adjective "respuesta pronta". I'd need to do some reading to know if the idioms are correct. Also there should be accent marks given that many words, but I'm rusty enough to not be certain where.
Most important is that we show respect by making a good effort to use Spanish. It need not be perfect. They may actually be more impressed if our Spanish is imperfect. Perfect Spanish means "Oh they have someone on the team who speaks Spanish, whatevers, that's nice." Imperfect Spanish means "Oh wow, they don't speak Spanish but they are trying to learn Spanish just to show respect to us. Impressive!"
With the Spanish team, I think I will take the Ambassadorship. The reason for this being all the contact I have had with their mod developers who happen to also be their captains, and we have a very good relation even with the language barrier (their English skills are lacking). I do not speak Spanish myself so the help would be very appreciated, Yossarian. I think we would benefit from using a "to-the-point", but polite and friendly form towards them. They seem very uninterested in roleplaying, and they should be positively inclined towards our team from the outset as we heavily advocated their mod. I suspect they are quite hostile towards RB though *evil grin*
Thanks Daveshack for taking a look over the translation! If we still want to use this same message when we finally meet the Spaniards, I'll make those corrections you suggested.
I'm glad Caledorn has volunteered for the Spanish Ambassadorship. I think we can get a lot of mileage from their positive relationship. They seem to have a team that is geared towards early warfare, hopefully we can help direct that aggression in the correct direction.
Caledorn, if we need to get out a quick message in Spanish, PM me and I'll make sure to work on it right away. Although some of you may have noticed that I check these threads obsessively, so a PM might not even be necessary!
I browsed through Spanish Polys Demogame sign-up thread today trying to get a feel for whether they like role-playing. I didnt see a lot in there about story-telling, but here are some observations, in no particular order:
Most of the thread was (understandably) related to the Spanish Mod (APTMod) and how to convince the other teams to use it.
They are very proud of their mod and could not understand all the objections based on obscure, unlikely scenarios. They were especially confused by the request to make sure the mod would allow altering the turn order. The response on their thread was something like Sure, we could do that, but that would mean a double-move, which is exactly what were trying to prevent, right???
They seem to view us and RB as the leaders of this game. When someone mentioned that a French team had joined and suggested sending them a French overview of the APTMod, the response was along the lines of No need, just let the Americans (RB and CFC) decide whether were going to use the mod or not.
The mentality of most seemed to be Lets play regardless of the particular rules. This is our chance to show the international Civ community that were just as good as any of them.
I think we should refer to them as the Spanish Community, as they seem to play some games on todocivilization and some on Apolyton. I was specifically looking for a reference to what they call themselves, and this was the closest I could get.
Some seem to have a bad taste from a previous game they played with other sites, in which they felt they lost because they were stabbed in the back, and now seem to assume that other sites do not place value on agreements.
They worried about the diplomacy aspect and having to keep up with diplomacy in English. They were turned off by the long posts in the planning thread.
These are some very good observations. Couple of comments on these points:
If the Spanish team regards us and RB the major players, changes are they might want to ally with one to beat the other. If we meet them roughly at the same time, I believe we should be able to convince them to join us rather than RB.
Communicating with them in Spanish is way to go.
I believe Caledorn is right, we should keep to the point with these guys. No sense in sugarcoating the message or using long words.
As background info it'd be nice to know whether the majority of Spanish community is from Spain or Latin America. Did you spot anything on that Yossarian? At the very least this info would give us a good idea when to expect the guys to be online.
BTW, I find this "Americans" quite hilarious as AFAIK about half our team members reside in Europe Though, if we count just by country, I guess most members come from the United States.
As background info it'd be nice to know whether the majority of Spanish community is from Spain or Latin America. Did you spot anything on that Yossarian? At the very least this info would give us a good idea when to expect the guys to be online.
The majority of their team (at least those who were posting in their sign-up thread) were Spaniards, with a few South Americans, iirc.
BTW, I find this "Americans" quite hilarious as AFAIK about half our team members reside in Europe Though, if we count just by country, I guess most members come from the United States
That's actually probably just my poor and US-centric translation. They were using the term "Guiris" or "Giris", which is slang in Spain for foreigners. I was at a wedding in Spain this spring where the bride was American, and that was the term the locals used to refer to all of us on her side.
I should also point out that, after writing my observations, it occurred to me that they were probably grouping Poly in with us too, since those are probably the Guiris they interact with the most.
Actually, Caledorn has built a pretty good rapport with their leaders working on the APT Mod and playing in the warm-up game with them, so I think he'll be signing his name on our communications with them. I'm just here to act as interpreter.
So this is the prepared message that has been translated into Spanish:
Well, with no suggestions to the drafts, I did the Spanish translation.
Original:
Spoiler:
Caledorn said:
Greetings to Team {x} from Team CFC
We are happy to make contact with your team, and we look forward to cooperating with you.
As an initial suggestion, we would like to propose a NAP between our teams until turn {x}, to be renegotiated 15{?} turns before the NAP ends if neccessary. To clarify what we mean by a NAP, we mean that neither of our teams will declare war on the other team, or move a unit inside the other teams borders (thus also declaring war). This will give our teams time to build up trust, and to make more formal agreements on going forwards.
{If a neighbouring team we can add this paragraph:} We would like to add that we do not wish either of our teams to expand aggressively towards one another, so we would very much like to extend our suggestion of a NAP with a border agreement as well. Please let us know your thoughts on this.
We will follow up in a few days with some info sharing once this is discussed within the team.
Nos da mucho gusto en conocer a su equipo muy estimado, y esperamos trabajar juntos con ustedes.
Como una sugerencia inicial, queremos proponer un pacto de no agresión hasta el turno {x}. Podemos negociar una extensión 15{?} turnos antes que se expira, si es necesario. Para clarificar lo que queremos decir con “pacto de no agresión”, ningún equipo puede declarar la guerra al otro equipo, ni puede mover un soldado* dentro de la frontera del otro equipo (lo cual también seria una declaración de guerra). Esto nos dará tiempo para generar confianza, y para hacer acuerdos más formales en el futuro.
{If a neighboring team we can add this paragraph} También queremos decir que nos gustaría si ningún de nuestros equipos pone nuevas ciudades muy agresivo contra el otro equipo.** Por eso nos gustaría incluir un acuerdo sobre nuestras fronteras con el “pacto de no agresión”. Por favor déjanos saber que piensan ustedes sobre esto.
Vamos a mandar otra mensaje en algunos días para compartir más información después que discutimos esto entre nuestro equipo.
*I used the word for "soldier" here because to the best of my knowledge, the word for "unit" translates only to mean a unit of something. Of course, it could be that I just haven't ever heard it used the way we are using it in the English message. The reason I point this out is because the Spaniards start with Hunting and a Scout, so maybe there is room to say a scout is not a "soldier" so they can enter our borders. However, the next part says "which also would be a declaration of war", so I think we're covered.
**This sentence sounds awkward to me, but I couldn't think of a better way to phrase it. Any suggestions are welcome.
Also, earlier I had translated talonschild's message, without Caledorn's revisions. I haven't touched it since then.
Cal's English Original:
Spoiler:
From (Chief Diplomat/Ambassador), representative of the CivFanatic Foreign Ministry, Domainal Protonotary, (other honorific to satisfy the rule of threes), to (Rival Team), (honorific or two), greeting.
It pleases our people to make your esteemed acquaintance, and we would hope our jubilation echoes in your halls. The prospect of peace and friendship for both our nations is a most happy one. We inquire as to when we may receive assurances of your similar joyous intent.
It has come to our notice that both our nations possess the means to fight. In order to avoid such a tragedy, we would like to formalize a pact of non-aggression with your government until turn {xx}, open for renegotiation from both our nations 15{?} turns before it's expiration. Kindly give notice if this would meet with your approval.
To strengthen that pact, we believe it may prove wise to come to a gentleman's agreement on the matter of territorial division. To avoid undignified outrage in the future, we propose to postpone such division until such time as both parties have better information regarding said territory.
Nos da mucho gusto en conocer a su equipo muy estimado, y esperamos que ustedes tambien se siente nuestra alegria. El prospecto de amistad y cooperacion entre nuestras naciones nos da mucha felicidad. Esperamos oir su respuesta para saber si tambien tienen nuestras intenciones pacificas.
Es claro que los dos tenemos la capacidad de pelear, pero preferimos evitar esta tragedia. Les gustarian firmar un pacto de no agresion con nuestro equipo?
Para mejorar nuestra cooperacion, pensamos que seria sabio entrar en acuerdo sobre el territorio en medio de nuestros equipos. Le sugerimos que esperamos hasta que los dos tenemos mejor informacion de estas tierras antes de entrar en este acuerdo.
Also, I see the Spaniards are not doing very well in game aspect. What I have saw from Magno in the double-move test game is he was aggressive and made war early, but without much if at all success. Just after this he saw the grand strategic situation and took the right decission to stop hostilities with neighbors and unite them to tackle the biggest threat he saw, which was Filon of CP. But then again he failed at executing the actual fighting and got his armies slaughtered utterly, his ex-allies scattered and lost his whole empire shortly after. I was advising one of his allies, who is good friend of mine IRL and I saw the military tactic situation and have told them what to do, but Magno was insisting on his plan. To me this speaks not very good - to make a mistake by overlooking or just by wrong moment decision is OK, it happens, but then someone to point it out to you and you dont see the wisdom in it and to stick to your initial plan, this speaks for just not understanding the fundamental principles. Yet to his advantage I can say he was brave and undaunted. He never bent a knee before the powerful foe or asked/accepted mercy. Also he took his defeat with dignity, saying just "In the next game" or something like this
All this I said to suggest we must get a NAP with them the longest possible. This is another fundamental politics principle I use in civ - those who you can outtech/outgrow are those who you want NAPs with. THose who can outtech/outgrow you in the future, you want to have the opportunity to bring down by war, so generally you dont want NAPs with them.
Yes, I think they are ideal allies for us. At least in the first third or half of the game. Brave and reckless and having the terrifying AGG Impis as a tool. Out of natural and healthy instinct of self-preservation we must look to be friends with them while the Impis are relevant. Then, given we will be left to develop at peace, I hope we can outtech/outgrow them in the middle of the game and then we can decide what we want to use them for. A war-dog or fodder for our own empire further growth.
All this of course is just speaking at first glance. It may well turns out that Magno =/= Team Spanish. Or that Spanish catch up either by conquering a neighbor while all their other neighbors are in long NAPs with them (they are AGG Zulu after all, so everyone would want a NAP with them). Or their slow start is just this - slow start and they show their potential a bit later. Just as our own team btw
I support going for NAP fully. Zulu and their Impi are way too close to us for comfort. And even if we get a NAP we desire, let's fortify our nothern border a bit just in case, OK? I think hooking up the copper just jumped up in our priority list quite a bit due to this contact.
Glad to hear we have support for a long-ish NAP from everyone who has weighed in. Shall we suggest Turn 115 (gives us about 60 turns)? The message also includes a provision that we will renegotiate the NAP 15 turns before the end, which would put us around T100 to discuss an extension. Again, for reference, this is the current message in Spanish:
Saludos al Equipo Español,
Nos da mucho gusto en conocer a su equipo muy estimado, y esperamos trabajar juntos con ustedes.
Como una sugerencia inicial, queremos proponer un pacto de no agresión hasta el turno 115. Podemos negociar una extensión 15 turnos antes que se expira, si es necesario. Para clarificar lo que queremos decir con pacto de no agresión, ningún equipo puede declarar la guerra al otro equipo, ni puede mover un soldado dentro de la frontera del otro equipo (lo cual también seria una declaración de guerra). Esto nos dará tiempo para generar confianza, y para hacer acuerdos más formales en el futuro.
También queremos decir que nos gustaría si ningún de nuestros equipos pone nuevas ciudades muy agresivo contra el otro equipo. Por eso nos gustaría incluir un acuerdo sobre nuestras fronteras con el pacto de no agresión. Por favor déjanos saber que piensan ustedes sobre esto.
Vamos a mandar otra mensaje en algunos días para compartir más información después que discutimos esto entre nuestro equipo.
And this is the English message that was translated:
Spoiler:
Caledorn said:
Greetings to the Spanish Team,
We are happy to make contact with your team, and we look forward to cooperating with you.
As an initial suggestion, we would like to propose a NAP between our teams until turn 115, to be renegotiated 15 turns before the NAP ends if neccessary. To clarify what we mean by a NAP, we mean that neither of our teams will declare war on the other team, or move a unit inside the other teams borders (thus also declaring war). This will give our teams time to build up trust, and to make more formal agreements on going forwards.
We would like to add that we do not wish either of our teams to expand aggressively towards one another, so we would very much like to extend our suggestion of a NAP with a border agreement as well. Please let us know your thoughts on this.
We will follow up in a few days with some info sharing once this is discussed within the team.
We have made contact, so we can send our message anytime now (the sooner, the better). A draft is ready to go in our mailbox, so unless there are any last minute suggestions, I'll be sending it in an hour or so. Cal, can you PM the Spanish captains to let them know they have mail?
We have made contact, so we can send our message anytime now (the sooner, the better). A draft is ready to go in our mailbox, so unless there are any last minute suggestions, I'll be sending it in an hour or so. Cal, can you PM the Spanish captains to let them know they have mail?
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. We hope to have more chances to play together in the future 
.
We hope that you will not take it personal and that we will be able to laugh together about our difficult past soon! 
