Spontaneous civil uproar!

[brianmmf]

Hello all,

I've been playing for at least 20 years, and cannot recall this ever happening.

I'm playing as the Babylonians in Prince mode, and it's 380BC. Out of nowhere, an Aztec city goes into civil uproar - babylonian influence suspected - and I inherit the city! I had yet to make contact with the Aztecs, let alone discover the island on which they are located. Screenshot attached.

Anyone else encounter this?

[nickthehun]

Its happened quite a few times when my civ's are really flourishing (plenty happy citizens etc.) in comparison to the defectors old homeland. But I've never understood the exact criteria for such a defection.

That grassland square on the southeast of Sumer has a strong chance of becoming a game resource square if you mine it.

[brianmmf]

Yes, I've had that happen before - where the citizens of another city "admire the prosperity" of one of my cities and defect. But this was the first time I'd had a random, undiscovered city have "civil uproar, [my] influence suspected" and defect. I would be interested to find out the actual criteria for both of these events to happen, beyond just the general notion of relative happiness of my citizens vs. theirs.

[Theov]

I don't remember seeing that.

[InnateGamer]

I've seen this plenty of times, in fact it happened on my latest lp on youtube, I suddenly got a city from the Zulus. Once I built a big empire on Eurasia/Africa on earth, then I built a city on Madagaskar. Then I let barbarians capture all of my developed cities, even some wonders. That was amazing, those barbarians were really strong, they had lots of knight units. But then out of the blue one of their cities revolts and becomes some other civilization's city. I don't remember if they managed to keep it from getting recaptured by barbarians though. Off topic, I believe barbarians do research, because they started with only legions, but then they had knights.

[Theov]

Originally Posted by InnateGamer

I've seen this plenty of times, in fact it happened on my latest lp on youtube, I suddenly got a city from the Zulus. Once I built a big empire on Eurasia/Africa on earth, then I built a city on Madagaskar. Then I let barbarians capture all of my developed cities, even some wonders. That was amazing, those barbarians were really strong, they had lots of knight units. But then out of the blue one of their cities revolts and becomes some other civilization's city. I don't remember if they managed to keep it from getting recaptured by barbarians though. Off topic, I believe barbarians do research, because they started with only legions, but then they had knights.

the barbs get better with age - even if they don't have cities

[Sidders]

I've always wondered if barbarians could florish into a proper civilization if you let them capture loads of cities. Has anyone ever tried this? I'm assuming you wouldn't be able to meet their king though!

[loopinaloop]

Originally Posted by Sidders

I've always wondered if barbarians could florish into a proper civilization if you let them capture loads of cities. Has anyone ever tried this? I'm assuming you wouldn't be able to meet their king though!

Once I had a bug were I could contact barbarians king: Attila. I regred that I wasn't member on this forum because now when I think about it... I'm not sure if it was Civ1, 2 or 5

Regarding the topic: this game is buggy. Case described in the first posts sounds like a possible bug. That's just another spark of magic in this game. Extremely odd bugs with game still playable. Things can get weird and paranormal. Sometimes only Alien Invasion can explain things Thanks for the screenshot, though!

[Theov]

Originally Posted by Sidders

I've always wondered if barbarians could florish into a proper civilization if you let them capture loads of cities. Has anyone ever tried this? I'm assuming you wouldn't be able to meet their king though!

I have tried, but they don't muster much. It's really hard to do though.
But it's a good idea. I'm gonna make 2 island and let one get captured by barbs. See what happens.

[Sidders]

Originally Posted by Theov

I have tried, but they don't muster much. It's really hard to do though.
But it's a good idea. I'm gonna make 2 island and let one get captured by barbs. See what happens.

Let us know how you get on!

[Valen]

Originally Posted by InnateGamer

I believe barbarians do research, because they started with only legions, but then they had knights.

I'm pretty sure the barbarians can't do research. The game can't handle them discovering anything.
I've heard second hand that if the Great Library is destroyed, the game treats this the same as the library reverting to barbarian control. When the barbarians should get technology from the library because 2 other civs got it, the game locks up. The same thing should happen if the barbarians capture the city with the library.

Can anyone confirm this from first-hand experience?

[Dack]

Originally Posted by Valen

I'm pretty sure the barbarians can't do research.
Can anyone confirm this from first-hand experience?

I use civ$ to start CIVDOS so that whenever I exit CIV I get to look at the advance bits for each civilization. I have never seen any advance bit set for the barbarians.

In the Great Library destruction thread the MAP & SAV files provided by Pikachu, the barbarians have advance bits set. This is certainly a bug as all civilization seem to get more advance bits.

Note: I think the current version of CIV$ is located on page 13 of the TerraForm thread entry number 251

[AnorakTel]

Many years ago I got a book, "CIV or Rome on 640K a Day." (They missed a good pun. It should have been "ROM on 640K a Day") This was an unofficial CIV manual although I think that the people had interviewed Sid and had his approval.

They gave a number of hints and pointers on what is going on. Is it possible that the Aztecs had been under attack? You get some strange effects when the capital is taken. If it is early enough and the CIV is the largest on the board then it splits in two - that is not a bug, it's deliberate. Maybe the Aztecs were large but not the biggest and when their capital fell the whole lot went into revolt and you were the happiest CIV around.

I've had this and it was embarrassing both times. I had just discovered gunpowder when I got a city on another continent holding a militaristic civilisation who had a bucket load of chariots. Naturally the 'free' city fell and within a couple of moves every man and his dog had gunpowder wiping out my techno advantage.

[CivZ]

Based on my own experience, this does happen sometimes, both on CivDOS and CivWin.

It's a bit weird, but fortunately is explained in Sid Meier's Civilization, or Rome on 640K a Day. Here's an excerpt from page 351:

Individual cities will switch allegiance if they are in Civil Disorder or if the balance between happy and unhappy citizens is even (...). Occasionally (...) these "malcontent" cities will look to see where the grass is greener among their nearest neighbouring cities. When they find the nearby city that is happiest, they will annex themselves to that civilization. Usually (...) these will be the original owner's cities (because cities in a civilization's heartland tend only to be near other cities belonging to that same civilization). However, "border" cities will be vulnerable if they are next to other, "happier" civilizations.

[Mize]

Individual cities will switch allegiance if they are in Civil Disorder or if the balance between happy and unhappy citizens is even (...). Occasionally (...) these "malcontent" cities will look to see where the grass is greener among their nearest neighbouring cities. When they find the nearby city that is happiest, they will annex themselves to that civilization. Usually (...) these will be the original owner's cities (because cities in a civilization's heartland tend only to be near other cities belonging to that same civilization). However, "border" cities will be vulnerable if they are next to other, "happier" civilizations.

This certainly sounds adequate, except for the "nearest neighbouring" and "nearby" part, since cities often flip from half the globe away without even knowing you're there.

Now, about the cities that cause the flips. I often do a monarchy play where I bump up my core cities to republic levels via WLTKD and trade. I get the most flips im my games that way, which leads me to believe that:

A) In order to get a flip, your city has to be celebrating. I believe that this is happening to me more often when I play monarchy, because when you run republic or democracy you tend to grow with WLTPD only for a few turns and then switch your luxury rate back to probably 10%. When you do a souped up monarchy, you keep at least 20% or possibly 30% lux. so you have a couple of big cities celebrating all the time... Which leads me to point B:

B) You not only have to be celebrating, but the enemy city has to be revolting... But that happens all the time and I think if those are the only conditions flips would be a much more common phenomenon. I suspect that it might have more to do with the number of consecutive turns the enemy city is in revolt and maybe some of the special events like 'rioting in ###' or the even more cryptic 'scandal in ###'.

I've been playing Civ on and off since 1994 and I've gotten hundreds of flips but only a few did occur in a geographically sound manner, i. e. actually near my borders and my prospering city/ies. One most astounding case was when I got two flips of the same city in a span of a couple of hundred years. Relying on the aforementioned monarchy play I'd gotten Rome, Caesarea and Chartage up to 20+ with trade, banks, celebrations and everything, and I had blockaded the Zulus with whom I shared the continent with a sound system of a couple of forts and a big garrison.

The city that was facing my fortresses defected. It was on the same isthmus that I had blockaded and only several squares away from Zimbabwe. The only thing separating me from the Zulu capital was a small mountain range where I intended to build another fort and use it to press Shaka into submission by keeping my guns constantly pointed at his palace. I almost succeeded, but he managed to retake the city. In a few turns it flipped to me again.

[Whelkman]

speculation:

After each turn the game runs a check on each city in disorder. If there is an enemy city celebrating, then there is a chance (e.g. 1/256) that the city will flip.

[Mize]

Originally Posted by Whelkman

speculation:

After each turn the game runs a check on each city in disorder. If there is an enemy city celebrating, then there is a chance (e.g. 1/256) that the city will flip.

Could be. That explains how cities flip to you from halfway across the world. But why do they? If big happy cities have a 'pull' and small rioting cities hesitate whether to switch their allegiance every turn, like 'Rome on 640K a Day' says, in order for a rioting city to flip, said pull has to be stronger in foreign cities than in the best cities of the same civilization. Which means that to get a flip you have to be A) celebrating B) have an enemy city in revolt and C) in addition, the enemy capital and/or best cities should be troublsome, maybe not in disorder, but definately not more prosperous than your own. The question boils down to how this prosperity is measured. What makes a city 'good'? And what are the other factors involved. Distance is most probably a factor, it's in the game - caravan bonuses, corruption - it makes sense to have it implemented in a feature as important as city flipping. But there could be much more to it. What if 'life expectancy' in the demographics screen is not just eyecandy but a multiplier for one of Sid's weird equations? You see where I'm going.

Maybe when I get some time off work I'll finally get Terraform and try and design a test scenario for some of these theories.

[kassuper]

I believe what makes a city 'good' is the amount of happy and content citizens vs the amount of unhappy citizens, simple as that. But I would love to be wrong and have life expectancy count towards something.

It would be totally cool if you could develop a strategy where your science and tax is too low to be succesful but your people are so happy the enemy citizens fall in love with you and want to join your great nation. Civ popularity contest.

[Theov]

Originally Posted by kassuper

I believe what makes a city 'good' is the amount of happy and content citizens vs the amount of unhappy citizens, simple as that. But I would love to be wrong and have life expectancy count towards something.

It would be totally cool if you could develop a strategy where your science and tax is too low to be succesful but your people are so happy the enemy citizens fall in love with you and want to join your great nation. Civ popularity contest.

we're backwards and know nothing, but look us being happy.
Incense was only introduced in Civ3

[Dark_Nephi]

I have seen it happen also. infact, the game im playing right now, im going to attack each capital and see if I can alter the enemy civs' happiness and cause a civil war. #causingcivcivilwarFTW