Joining forces: A discussion about abandoned projects and who moved to R&R

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Isabelxxx

... most modders have joined R&R or have left Col and therefore doesn't care about these unfinished projects anymore.
It's a pitty, there were really good ideas in many of these mods but only are beta versions with some bugs remaining...

That is exactly why so many of us have joined forces.

It is not because somebody simply "abandons" his work or ideas or doesn't care anymore about these.
It is because we want to unite all of our best work and features into one single gigantic mod.

By doing so, we can create featurs much faster and with much higher quality than what we could do alone.
(The features and concepts themselves are being improved a lot.)

Inventions for example - which are part of this mod - will also become a feature in Religion and Revolution.
(Just one example out of many.)

So don't worry, the best ideas and features will continue to live.
(They will find their place in Religion and Revolution.)

[Isabelxxx]

That's just a way of seeing it, but that doesn't change anything.

What I wanted to say is that there are many mods here that have been started and then left as beta, which is a pity since diversity is greater than just one mod that have it all. Because "all" is subjective if you ask different users.

It would be great if there were more mods finished like this, even if then they are included in R&R, improved or anything else.
The inventions mod, for ex. still have bugs and plans in the thread but they have been left for R&R mod instead of finishing the original project and then add it to R&R.
I personally would had liked to see these mods finished and most were abandoned before R&R. Now I can do it by myself, but I'm sure many users would like to see finished mods and don't want to try merging or modding by theirselves.

Also I don't want to sound rude but R&R should not be the only thing in COL.
We know is great, but that doesn't change the fact that there are only 3 or 4 mods actually working in COL, less being developed. That should change. More diversity is needed (for ex. the Westward Ho would be really great!).

[thadian]

There are several good mods and a lot of new modders around. Religion and Revolution has given an opportunity for a lot of people to grow, develop their skills and learn the tricks of it - which in turn, will allow us to apply what we learn to making new mods, and tweaking existing ones.

I have been keeping up on Colonization forums for a long time and while the mod community is not as active for civ4col as it is for civ4bts, things are still happening. So be patient - as people learn how to mod, and begin working on things only more mods will come out of it. And RaR is giving a lot of people a chance to do that.

Cheers

[Isabelxxx]

I feel unnecesary to receive PMs like this:

I am trying to explain a few things because I believe there might be some misunderstandings about our plans for Religion and Revolution.

It is not our intention to eliminate diversity of mods.
It is quite the contrary.

We are happy for every other project around, since in there new ideas and features arise, which we might also use.

A good modding community is not about competition but about cooperation.

Religion and Revolution is supposed to be:

Spoiler:

1. A platform, where features and ideas flow in and out.
(We share all of our work !)

People create ModComps or features in their mods that we integrate, improve and later on share again.

We always heavily improve and stabilize these ModComps or features and create high quality features out of those.
(AI, graphics, new functionalities, ...)

Event System, Whaling, Domestic Markets, Multiple Yields Produced / Consumed, ...

The versions in our Mod cannot be compared to the original version at all anymore, since the version we contain are really much better.

So if a modder wants to use these features for his own work, the currently best place to look for version to adapt is Religion and Revolution.

We are also very willing to help other modders adapt work from our mod.

2. A program that gives new modders the chance to increase their knowledge and get help from experienced modders.

Modding beginners that work with us get a lot of support and information, if they are interested.

3. A joint effort to get things done in high quality or even create huge features that a single modder could hardly do.

See, each of us is a specialist in some area and often not as versatile in others.

For big and high quality features however, you need high level of skills for programming, graphics, texts, balancing ...

Since we have specialists for these areas, things can be done much easier and better.

So what do I want to say with this:

Give us some time and you will see, that a lot of good things will come out of this.

New Modders trained
Strong cooperation between the existing projects
Many great new features built and shared
New interest for the game and the modding scene
...


I know that this idea works, since I have experienced it in the German community.

Spoiler:

Just compare quality and size of TAC with other mods ...

Also the German modding scene was much more acitve than CivFanatics until the TAC team decided to stop the project.

There are currently also several very interesting projects where people that had been working with TAC are involved.

Believe me:

One common "platform" as a focus point where things flow in and out continuously is a great thing for a community.

In the end a lot of great features and diversity will arise of this.

But of course this does not mean, that other projects should totally stop.

Spoiler:

Many of our team members still have their private projects also and will sooner or later focus on these again.
(It is just, that they currently really see how much they can accomplish together with a team and how much fun that can be.)

It would really be great, if DoaNE would also like to cooperate with us.
Both of our projects could only profit from that.

Best regards,
ray

Because it's obvious! It just seems that we -not R&R users- are kids and need the same explanation again & again, and not sure why... I didn't ask for it and I don't disagree with you! I have not said anything about your intention or your development!

There are several good mods and a lot of new modders around. Religion and Revolution has given an opportunity for a lot of people to grow, develop their skills and learn the tricks of it - which in turn, will allow us to apply what we learn to making new mods, and tweaking existing ones.

I have been keeping up on Colonization forums for a long time and while the mod community is not as active for civ4col as it is for civ4bts, things are still happening. So be patient - as people learn how to mod, and begin working on things only more mods will come out of it. And RaR is giving a lot of people a chance to do that.

Cheers

Heh! Again, not all is R&R. My comments should not be understood against R&R. And it was not my intention to start a thread about R&R, not sure what's the goal of praising and praising a mod, discussing about their intentions, the mod team, etc. That has nothing to do with this thread and it was not my intention to say the opposite about those things.

most modders have joined R&R

I just wrote a fact, that R&R includes all theses good mods and the modders who started these projects have left these standalone mods to be part of a bigger project.
I also wrote this:

or have left Col and therefore doesn't care about these unfinished projects anymore. It's a pitty, there were really good ideas in many of these mods but only are beta versions with some bugs remaining...

Not sure what's the problem with my words... with "R&R is not all" I mean that there is a persistent try to announce, introduce or speak about something that's is not related in any way to some threads or posts. Seriously, not sure what's the interest of this conversation....

[raystuttgart]

@Isabelxxx:

Sorry for annoying you.
I just got hooked by "... most modders have joined R&R ... therefore doesn't care about these unfinished projects anymore ...".

I also do accept, that I sometimes overexaggerate with telling our "philosophie of cooperation and joining forces" and will try to improve.
(It is simply that I really believe in that ...)

@The_J:

Thanks for moving these posts so we do not spam Androrc's mod thread anymore.

[thadian]

Heh! Again, not all is R&R. My comments should not be understood against R&R. And it was not my intention to start a thread about R&R, not sure what's the goal of praising and praising a mod, discussing about their intentions, the mod team, etc. That has nothing to do with this thread and it was not my intention to say the opposite about those things.

I had no intention to annoy you but instead to tell you that i agree.

I remember when Colonization 2071 stopped development. Medieval Tech, Mare Nostrum. I rememeber waiting weeks for another patch, another series of works, aquatic planet scripts and modular playable natives. I also remember how happy i was when i still got occasional replies in their threads - and even small updates, wondering i wander alone in the ghostlands.

I can talk all day and say i want to release these things but i have not learned enough, its a process. Hopefully, i will be able to contribute to good works as i continue to learn. Only in the last 2 weeks have i learned how to ask for help and make... -gasp- human contact. Before that i was afraid to irritate people with my simpleton questions and look like a copycat who just has ideas for tweaking the work of other people instead of starting my own project to be left at beta.

[Writing Bull]

Also the German modding scene was much more acitve than CivFanatics until the TAC team decided to stop the project.
There are currently also several very interesting projects where people that had been working with TAC are involved.

Sorry, but I have to correct that.

Your message suggests that we have abandoned our project and that the team of TAC doesn't exist no longer. That's not true.

The development of the basic-edition of TAC has been finished. But at our German-speaking forum we are developing scenarios which use TAC for creating some new challenges. The first one will be released at 9th August. Here you will find detailed informations. We are discussing further ideas for further scenarios.

I wish the RaR-team good luck for your project. But please respect that there are some modders who have different ideas and separate projects. Sometimes your messages at RaR forum tell the story that it is unavoidable that all modders around the world will become members of your team because RaR would include all ideas which Colonization-modders could have. I don't believe that.

You have a specific modding-philosophy. You are creating a great amount of features, units, buildings, yields. There are other projects with another philosophy. For example TAC has abandoned to implement a great amount of elements because we don't believe that this will enhance the game. It is not necessary to discuss that at this place. But please respect that your way to change Colonization is not the only one. Thanks!

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Writing Bull

Your message suggests that we have abandoned our project and that the team of TAC doesn't exist no longer. That's not true.

That is not what I wanted to say.
Sorry if I formulated in a bad way.

Originally Posted by Writing Bull

The development of the basic-edition of TAC has been finished. But at our German-speaking forum we are developing scenarios which use TAC for creating some new challenges.

As you point out, only the project for the base mod has ended.
And as I tried to say, there are several new interesting projects.

Originally Posted by Writing Bull

But please respect that there are some modders who have different ideas and separate projects.

I absolutely do respect that.

Originally Posted by Writing Bull

Sometimes your messages at RaR forum tell the story that it is unavoidable that all modders around the world will become members of your team because RaR would include all ideas which Colonization-modders could have. I don't believe that.

That is not what I want to say.

What I want to say:

1. If all modders stronger cooperate, then all mod projects will profit.
2. We are trying to pick up the best ideas that have been created so far and further improve them and then share them again.
3. Working in a big team can be a lot of fun and together we can achieve things that each of us alone could not.

I never wanted to say:
(I don't know why people think I did.)

1. All other mods should be stopped and only R&R should continue.
2. All modders must become team members of R&R.
3. Other philosophies or ideas for modding are bad.

Originally Posted by Writing Bull

You have a specific modding-philosophy.
...
There are other projects with another philosophy.

Of course.

Originally Posted by Writing Bull

But please respect that your way to change Colonization is not the only one.

When did I ever say that "our way" is the only one ?
I do not even want that ...

Several of our team members still have their own projects and I have never asked them to stop these !

I really do not know what is wrong about:

1. Stronger cooperation.
2. Sharing and improving each others work.
3. Trying to support and train new modders.

If you have any problems with something specific I said / wrote, simply tell me.

I simply want to create a great mod with the team and have a lot of fun doing so.
The only other thing I want is to improve the ways the remaining modders support and cooperate ...

We are simply giving people a chance to join us or cooperate with us.
There is no bad intention behind this.

Originally Posted by Writing Bull

Thanks!

Thank you too for the feedback.
I am sorry for any inconvenience I have caused.

[Robert Surcouf]

Hi everyone,

It isn't easy to post a message on this thread... However, I am somehow happy that this conversation exists.

Originally Posted by Isabelxxx

Also I don't want to sound rude but R&R should not be the only thing in COL.
We know is great, but that doesn't change the fact that there are only 3 or 4 mods actually working in COL, less being developed. That should change. More diversity is needed (for ex. the Westward Ho would be really great!).

I agree with you! I'm quite impressed with Civ4 Bts mods ... You can find many many great Bts mods: Fall From Heaven II, Legends of Revolution, Star Trek, Dune, Babylon 5 etc... (and I guess I've forgot many of them)!
But the problem is there aren't as many modders willing to mod Colonization than those willing to mod Civ4...

Originally Posted by Isabelxxx

It would be great if there were more mods finished like this, even if then they are included in R&R, improved or anything else.

Gosh! You're right!

Originally Posted by Isabelxxx

The inventions mod, for ex. still have bugs and plans in the thread but they have been left for R&R mod instead of finishing the original project and then add it to R&R.

Kailric's invertor's mod? I actually found a few minor bugs in his mod component. I guess they're in his mod too.

Spoiler:

There are two versions of his mod. His modcomp contains no inventions at all as is meant to be used by other modders. Orlanth used it in his Colonization 2071 if I'm correct. And I used it in my beta Storm and Light. And he also posted a full mod with many inventions

Kailric is busy now, and he won't be working on his mods... But he gave us a green light to fix any bug we could find. You're right, before adding inventions to R and R we could indeed fix his modcomp and/or his mod. (we means me, Ray, anyone else ond RaR team, or any modder willing to do so!!)

Originally Posted by Isabelxxx

I personally would had liked to see these mods finished and most were abandoned before R&R. Now I can do it by myself, but I'm sure many users would like to see finished mods and don't want to try merging or modding by theirselves.

I don't think Ray is against this at all.
Ray is quite enthusiastic, and I really like that! This is really about cooperation.
I've had some discussion with Dazio and M07 from Dawn of a New Era team (I'm sure you know them ). I told them I would help them whenever (or if ever) they need me... I've helped them in the past and they've helped me a lot too! We've had many discussions on the French forum. And they recently told me that their approach was quite different than RaR's. I really think it's a good idea to have different approaches. I've had a glimpse to one of the last developments of DoNE: death of Kings/multiple kings. I'm quite impressed with what you're doing Isabel!

I'm afraid there isn't much of us left. Civ4Col modder's is a specie threatened by extinction. ... I really think we should help one another. So if there is help needed, if someone wants to finish an unfinished mod just post a message. However, since we aren't that many, I don't see how we can be everywhere at the same time... I really think that was the point of all this (I mean "joining forces" and "cooperation").

I have had many ideas of Civ4Col mods (a Dune mod, space mod with jump gate's like Babylon 5, a master of magic type using col mechanisms) etc... But we are simply too few to do all this job...

Originally Posted by Writing Bull

The development of the basic-edition of TAC has been finished. But at our German-speaking forum we are developing scenarios which use TAC for creating some new challenges. The first one will be released at 9th August. Here you will find detailed informations. We are discussing further ideas for further scenarios.

Werewolves. Oh great! You're a genius Writing Bull!
Would you like to do a master of magic mod with me in 2030? or in a next life?

Is everyone Ok with this?

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

Is everyone Ok with this ?

Yes, of course.
However, I will give you a few more explanations / details what I am mean when talking about Joining Forces.
(Religion and Revolution offers to be that platform to join forces.)

1. Team Membership
(For people that really want to get involved.)

Basically this is coming together to create features (and of course also a great mod).
This does not mean that anybody should give up other projects.

But to create a feature as efficient as possible, you need a common project, where all have access and can commit their work.
(Programmers, graphical modders, text writers, testers, ...)

So within that project, different modders simply discuss and create that feature together.
Then when the feature is created, everybody who participated in the creation of the feature gets all support needed to adopt it to his own project if wanted.

So yes, there is one project where the modders come together.
But the feature is then shared again to all other team members' projects (if they have one and want to adapt the feature).

Main aspects are having fun together and finally creating a great mod of course.

What is necessary for this to my opinion:

For this, you need to be a team member since you will participate in the decisions how the feature -and thus also our mod - will finally look like.
But you can still work in as many projects as you want to.
It is also no problem at all, if you only participate in Religion and Revolution every few months or so or need to take a longer time out.

2. Strong Cooperation
(Program for modders with own projects, that do not want close involvement.)

Cooperation is a weaker form of "Joining Forces".

I give you an example how this has been working in the past:

Spoiler:

I created the feature "Geographically Correct Placement of Natives" for Religion and Revolution.

Then I gave all necessary sources and information to adapt this feature to TAC.

koma from TAC then enhanced the feature to work as a game option.
The others from TAC did intensive testing and found some bugs in the feature.

I then got back the feature from TAC and fixed the bugs and did some improvements.

After that I gave the newest version to TAC again.

In the end, both projects had a great new feature.

What is necessary for this to my opinion:

Sharing each others work freely and without conditions !
Helping each other to understand and adapt.

3. Partnership
(Programm for modding beginners and community.)

Basically information is shared.
We try to support and help each other by answer questions or giving feedback.

People in this programm will get structured support to become a modder by having the right people to ask questions, if they are interested.
If these people then show interest in really becoming involved, they can become a team member.

What is necessary for this to my opinion:

At least some interest in our work and some motivation to learn and participate.

-----------

Summary:

Of course, we will try to help and answer question to anybody.
But our time is limited.
The closer you get involved with us, the more influence you have on the results we create and the more support you will get.

Getting involved with us does not mean at all, that anybody looses any kind of freedom to do other things as well.
(Other mods, modcomps, supporting other projects, ...)

We believe, that in the end a lot of great features and mods will arise out of our philosphie of "Joining Forces".
It is not at all about giving up other projects or not respecting other ideas and modding philosophies ...

It is your choice how far you want to "join forces" or not.
All we can do is make an offer ...

[Pallando]

Basically information is shared.
We try to support and help each other by answer questions or giving feedback.

People in this programm will get structured support to become a modder by having the right people to ask questions, if they are interested.
If these people then show interest in really becoming involved, they can become a team member.

I really think that this is great. I had a similar idea, but from a newbie perspective. I'm in the process of learning how to become a modder. I'm at zero, but I have make some progress, slowly but progress nonetheless.
The thing is that I want to document it in the forum, so that anyone could have that information available to them. I'm sure that Ray and others already know that information, but if it's posted then anyone can use it.
How cool would it be to have an explanation of all the xml files, how to add a new unit, founding father, create a feature, etc.

This is what I aim to do, not just to learn myself how to do it, but to have the info there so that anyone can do it.

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Pallando

How cool would it be to have an explanation of all the xml files, how to add a new unit, founding father, create a feature, etc.

The main problem is, that most of us remaining experienced modders are too busy (or too lazy) to write long tutorials.

But we can find the time to is answer questions and give pointers to people who are willing to experiment and learn by themselves.
So basically what we are trying to do is to give those people who are really interested in learning some support and the right people to ask questions.
We are eliminating the problem, that people do not know who to ask.

What we also can do is to give our partners access to our SVN, so that they have access to all our current work and see what we have been doing and why.
We are trying to show them the backgrounds and processes in a modding project.
If we created a feature, they can exactly which changes have been made.

It is not perfect, but it is a start.

[Pallando]

The main problem is, that most of us remaining experienced modders are too busy (or too lazy) to write long tutorials.

That is the beauty of it. I'm going to try and document as I learn, but becuase I learn slowly, I will post and document slowly so that the info is available. I really don't expect anyone to have this approach, but I'm a firm believer in cooperation.
I know that people will not document this, but I will try.

P.S. Not taking a shot at anyone nor disrespecting anyone.

[thadian]

I like that your documenting how you learn and it made me look at my own curve of learning. I don't document things the way you do, but maybe when i have a eureka that can help others i should.

[Pallando]

I like that your documenting how you learn and it made me look at my own curve of learning. I don't document things the way you do, but maybe when i have a eureka that can help others i should.

Thanks, I think that if you would document how and your progress, it would make others (like me) learn faster and don't waste time in guessing, but do something that works.

Let me put an example of this. I'm learning what do the diferent xml files do in terms of units, yields, etc.
Because as of now, I can't read C++, in order to know what the different xml files do, I have to reverse engineer. In the case of the order of the units of that appear in the docks in Europe. I had to start the game, write the order in a piece of paper, and then look into the xml files to find out which one had that info. Fortunately Ray, gave me the answer. It is a valid method but time consuming, so I have 2 choices, keep doing it that way, or learn to read C++.

Now, imagine that when X experienced mod, in the progress of his learning had begun to understand this, had written a simple text file of what the files do, the functions, etc, then the people who wanted to learn would do so faster.

In this, I have noticed that if you are beginning but had some little success, you would be more motivated to keep going, than if you began but had zero success, some would tend to quit rather than to keep on. That is basically my idea.

I want to make that info available to anyone, so that they can mod the game to their hearts content.

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Pallando

... keep doing it that way, or learn to read C++.

Or simply ask the experienced modders.

As I said, if your questions are specific you should get really good answers quite fast.

Simply do not ask questions like:

• "How can I merge these 2 gigantic mods ?"
• "Could you explain me how to program C++ ?"
  ...

Ask things that can be answered in reasonable time like:

• "Where do I find ... that controls ... ?"
• "What does the file ... do ?"
• "What does the XML tag ... mean ?"
• "Where should I start to create feature ... ?"
• "Why is unit ... not able to ... ?"
• "How do I set up a project to create a DLL ?"
• "Could you take a look at this piece of code because it has a bug ?"
• ...

50% of learning CivCol modding is motivation and working on tasks of reasonable size.
The other 50% of learning CivCol moddings is to know who to ask (specific questions).

[Pallando]

50% of learning CivCol modding is motivation and working on task of reasonable size.
The other 50% of learning CivCol moddings is to know who to ask (specific questions).

Ray, you are the best.

Actually, I'm following the guideline that you posted in another topic, about the order that one should follow.

1. XML
2. 2D Graphics

So that is what I'm doing. I mean where is the fun if you don't try to learn by yourself and then ask questions.

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Pallando

I mean where is the fun if you don't try to learn by yourself and then ask questions.

Trying yourself first is optimal of course.
But before you are loosing too much time, simply ask.

By reading here in this forum, you should figure out, who is specialist for what.
(We have specialists for DLL + XML, Python, graphics, ...)

[Robert Surcouf]

Originally Posted by Pallando

I want to make that info available to anyone, so that they can mod the game to their hearts content.

Hi Pallando! That's great.

Did you know you could find many info on Xml, Python, C++ on civfanatics. Most of it is build for beyond the Sword, but it still helps.

Here is the main topic:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=177

This one helps you with Xml
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=213706
Xml part 1:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=135459
part 2
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=135535
part 3:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=141182

How to add a Xml tutorial:http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=155345
And here you can find some python info
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=238839
A basic python guide
http://sthurlow.com/python/
TGA python's guide
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=154130

I hope this will help you.

[thadian]

woah, this will help me as well.