Islamic Schism (Shia and Sunni) Discussion

Historical/Cultural Information placeholder

(lol what a noob, any chance of a mod correcting my Sunny (to Sunni lol)

632 AD Death of Muhammad 632. Crisis over succession emerges resulting in political and theological split between Sunnis and Shias.

Sunnis - support election of leaders among their political/theological scholars.
Shias - Believe in divine succession for for Muhammads descendents. In general there seems to be more supernaturalism/mysticism/sainthood aspects to Shia imo.

680 AD Battle of Karbala - vicious pitched battle between Sunni's and Shia's for early leadership of the Islamic world. During this era members of Muhammads own surviving family are assassinated by zealots. (its... hardcore...)

788–974 Idrisid dynasty
Considered the traditional founders of the Morrocon states (I think later absorbed into the Fatimds) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Idrisids-eng.PNG

934–1055 Buyid dynasty
Persian based Shia dynasty that fell to the Turks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Buyids_970.png

990 to 1096 Uqaylid Dynasty
Based around Syria/Iraq - fell to the Turks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uqaylid_Dynasty_990_-_1096_(AD).PNG (Much like whenever I play the Arabs in RFC hehe)

909 - 1171 Fatimid Caliphate
Through the conversion of North African berbers to Shi'ism, the Fatimid caliphate emerges. Comprises of North Africa, Egypt. Lasts until religious civil war causes it to collapse. It should be noted... this presents an early and significant challenge towards the dominance of Sunnism in the Islamic world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FatimidCaliphate969.png

1256–1335 Ilkhanate
A kind of Persian - Mongolian hybrid that led by rulars converted by the Shias.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilkhanate

1347–1527 Bahmani Sultanate
India... yes INDIA... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahmani_Sultanate

1501–1736 Safavid dynasty
Persia, conquering some of its neighbours and imposing Shi'ism as a state religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid#Decline_of_the_Safavid_state

Current 'Islamic' Civilisations in-game for purposes of Shia/Sunni discussion.

620 Arabs (Middle East) (Spawns Islam)
Historically this would appear to depict the initial caliphates comprising of the 750–1258 Abbasid Caliphate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate) and earlier 661–750 Umayyad Caliphate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Caliphate

It's worth noting that these caliphates were defeated absorbed/marganalised by the Shia led Fatimid Calphate (which in turn would be destroyed by a Sunni led revolt) resulting in the formation of the Almoravid and Ayyubid dynasties (along with a small number of European principalities.)

711 Moors (North Africa)

1206 Mughals (India)

1280 Turks (Well Turkey-ish)

* Egypt

* Persia







Today: Shias form approximately 12 - 20 percent of the Muslim population, forming a distinct minority in almost all Muslim countries and a majority in Iran, Iraq and Syria. Regardless of this the influence of that minority (to the political stability of all those countries has had a deep impact on politics onto the present day.) We all know when we switch on our news... that we hear often of the sectarian violence played out today... a reflection of the violence and attitudes that shaped the divide between these adherents since the days of the first Caliphate... to violent almost genocidal oppression under the Ottomans to the state of affairs today.

Estimates for Shias are difficult to count also, for the fact that not all Shias feel comfortable saying so. That said, numbers are probably about 230 - 300 million.

That Shia and Sunni rulers vied for leadership of the Islamic world (since the initiation of the schism) it is truly a game of what if... that one denomination may have found victory over another. Its not a kitchen sink inclusion to include a religion whose schism has been the source of conflict not just between Islamic states, but also a source of distinction for the intervention of foriegn states in the modern era.

Reference :
History of Shia (including reference to Shia States)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Shi'a_Islam#Imams_era

'complex' relationship between Sunnis and Shia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi'a–Sunni_relations

I look forward to making my own gameplay suggestions for incorporating Shi'ism, however I hope other people read the research available and make contributions too. Which I'll list below.

BENZL43

Well, the icon for Shiite is already in SoI and Leoreth can just copy paste it.
Then Babylon should respawn as Jalayirids in 1335 AD with Shia as state religion and capital at Baghdad. Respawn again as

If Leoreth wants the number of religion & corporation on par, then I suggest the following on the religion topic :

Replace Taoism with Shiite
Add Taoism and Judaism as minor-religion like how SoI represent the Buddhism & Judaism.
Taoist building is Taoist Temple, require Confucianism. Add Happiness and/or Culture and/or Science bonus.
Taoist Temple bring the beautiful Tao icon back to the game
Jewish building is Jewish Quarter, require Catholicism/Orthodoxy. Add Happiness and/or Science and/or Financial bonus.
+1 to all city with Judaism if the civilization holds Temple of Solomon (even though already obsolete)
Shiite spawn if Egyptian re-spawn and heavily spread through the Muslim country.
If Egyptian does not respawn, then in logical sense, it means the Shiite community there failed to revolts again Sunni rule
Ergo, Shiite is founded when Safavid spawn and does not spread as heavy as if in Egyptian respawn
Safavid UHV could be changed to spread Shiite to x% of the world or make x number of Islamic state religion to Shiite
Upon Shiite spawn, Islam renamed to Sunni
Catholic rename to Christianity and renamed to Catholic upon Orthodoxy spawn
City with Shiite but no Shiite Mosque / Building add +1 if Islam (now Sunni) is the state religion.
Persecution of Shiite from a city brought temporarily +1 in all of that civilization's city with Shiite, and diplomacy penalty with Shiite civilization
Dai Miao become world wonder that require at least 3 city with Taoist Temple and have different reward.

Click to expand...

Strijder20

First war between Islamic states? So it should automatically trigger at 1050 AD (Seljuks) if the Muslims are being peaceful, but there is still a possibility for it to spawn earlier.

What about: 'We are now in war with the Malinese. Our people are complaining at the bloodshed between brothers in faith. However, we can resolve the problem by publicly declaring Shi'ism our state religion, and distancing ourselves from the Sunni Malinese.'

Click to expand...

Caesar Augustus

One thing that might make some sense and serve to make the religion interesting is some sort of building that requires BOTH Shia and Sunni (maybe something based on Sufism or Islamic jurisprudence, though now I'm really out of my depth). Alternately, there could be a unified Islamic Mosque that required either Shia or Sunni temples, allowing a state with both religions present to potentially build double the number they would otherwise have. I would say that the two religions should, if possible, share a shrine, because otherwise you'd have to give the Masjid al-Haram to one or the other when both have, to my knowledge, pretty much the same claim.

Just throwing out suggestions here, but the basic idea is the same: if we make Shia mechanically interesting while still being largely realistic, I don't think anyone can object to its inclusion on historical grounds.

Click to expand...

iOnlySignIn

(1) Adjusting the Religious attitude modifiers of Islamic leaders. Take for example the current Abbas of Iran. He has zero Religious modifiers, which means he won't hesitate to attack the Ottomans or Mughals simply because they are both Islam. We do similar things with other Islamic leaders, to varying degrees.

(2) Hidden attitude modifiers between specific civs. RFCE/SoI both make plentiful use of this. For example, Portugal and Spain have hidden relations increase in RFCE to avoid them from killing each other too early. Leoreth tends to avoid this mechanism (because it makes the game more predictable), but for the Islamic schism we can make an exception.

(3) Shia Wonders (without adding Shia formally as a religion). Sikhism is represented in DoC by the Harmandir Sahib Wonder. Shintoism, arguably by the Himeji Castle Wonder. Shia Islam can be represented in similar ways via Wonders, through specific mechanics such as:

- An Islamic Wonder that requires you to be at war with another Islamic civ.

- An Islamic Wonder which lowers your Religion relations boost with other Islamic civs, but provides some other bigger benefits. Similar to The Round Church in RFCE.

- An Islamic Wonder with specific Tech requirements that make it more accessible to a specific Islamic civ rather than all the others. For example, Topkapi Palace (Engineering with Civil Service).

Click to expand...

Hippo8085

Okay, to contribute.
There was a suggestion a long time ago about this very topic. It was to keep Islam as a single religion, however it made:
A heavy diplomacy hit with other Islamic civics
A building in Capital that gave +1 per city with Islam in your empire.

Click to expand...

I will reiterate that you should have more than the information in the first or second post as to why it should be represented in the game. I still think certain aggressive leaders is enough.

Next time you start a new thread, make your whole first post and revise it before posting. This is what I did in the Crusades one, and it still was not perfect.

Report your thread (first post) using the warning sign to draw attention of a mod, Lawrie.

Copying my post from the SaR thread:

(Shia is founded at the)
First war between Islamic states? So it should automatically trigger at 1050 AD (Seljuks) if the Muslims are being peaceful, but there is still a possibility for it to spawn earlier.

What about: 'We are now in war with the Malinese. Our people are complaining at the bloodshed between brothers in faith. However, we can resolve the problem by publicly declaring Shi'ism our state religion, and distancing ourselves from the Sunni Malinese.'

Click to expand...

Sunni, not Sunny
Too bad I've already posted my final suggestion on the previous thread..

Ill copy and paste it BenZL43 lol and i know im such a dafty hehe...

Okay so shall we keep discussion towards suggesting ideas, or expanding on the historical/cultural context. The reason for the later is that can help us understand the deterministic events that can allow for the most appropriate gameplay implementation of Shi'ism. ie. should a tech found it? Or a spawned civ? and so forth.

Honestly, the split between Shia and Sunni happened so early in the history of Islam that you could just as easily have both of them spawn with the Arabs / Divine Right. Is there some sort of rule that multiple religions can't be founded by the same tech? I think the key to making Shia both historically accurate (and if we're going to deviate from historical accuracy, what's the point of even including them?) and mechanically interesting is to make it have an impact and be fun WITHIN the Arab state, before the spawn of anyone likely to run Shia as a state religion. As I said before, an interesting Monastery bonus and/or a Shia wonder or two could make it compelling without being strictly necessary, though I know little enough about Shia history that I wouldn't be in a good place to make specific suggestions (although with the internet being what it is research is only a search bar away).

One thing that might make some sense and serve to make the religion interesting is some sort of building that requires BOTH Shia and Sunni (maybe something based on Sufism or Islamic jurisprudence, though now I'm really out of my depth). Alternately, there could be a unified Islamic Mosque that required either Shia or Sunni temples, allowing a state with both religions present to potentially build double the number they would otherwise have. I would say that the two religions should, if possible, share a shrine, because otherwise you'd have to give the Masjid al-Haram to one or the other when both have, to my knowledge, pretty much the same claim.

Just throwing out suggestions here, but the basic idea is the same: if we make Shia mechanically interesting while still being largely realistic, I don't think anyone can object to its inclusion on historical grounds.

I don't think anyone can object to its inclusion on historical grounds.

Click to expand...

I know me too! But its a murky topic isn't it? Caesar sir - thank you so much, and thank you for your suggestions.

My first post in this thread is trying to develop a kind of rough historical faq on Shi'isms political and cultural impact. Because jeez... I didn't know a lot about this topic and am researching what I can.

I think Shi'ism makes its impact most felt in the conflicts that it inspired between different Muslim states, rather than an internal conflict (arising within say one state - which i mean ingame, as in the 'arabs'.)

I'm still working on some ideas, (and hey im not saying mine are better than yours!)

Here's some rough thinking I have....

*1) An event where by shi'ism spreads as a random minority for a number of Arab cities and or Muslim Civs with each player choosing to encourage or repress it affecting the number of spreads/ or conversions?
2) Conditional spawning of Shi'ite Egypt (Fatimids) and any of the Persian dynasties (of the Buyid, Uqaylid or Sarafid) if there is low stability for the Arabs perhaps?
3) The Moors emerge in game in 711, around the time of the 788–974 Idrisid dynasty, which were themselves a Shia kingdom.

// I should add that having a choice for a tolerant leader (to utilise both religions for the odd shrine improvement etc for Shi'ism ala an unhappiness hit or something would be cool too.

*1) Note that the language of that event (should it occur some turns after the emergence of Islam, can allude to this denomination already existing so to avoid any suggestion that it had not already emerged. Historically it was laterly adopted by the rulers of states and in such a case this event would simply be representing Shi'ism when it became so influential (that it emerged as a distinct denomination.) for representation politically ie. on the civ map.

Those are some ideas, while the Indian Bahmani Sultanate took me by surprise.

IMO, you're confusing states and civs. Conflict AMONG different Arab states is conflict WITHIN the Arab civ. Which is why I think Shia is best represented, at least until the spawn of Egypt (if it happens, otherwise Iran) as a minority (or potentially majority if played that way) religion within the Arab (and I guess Moorish, to a lesser extent) civ. I could see accomplishing that through an event that triggered for Arabia and maybe the Moors along the lines of your first option. Egypt is already conditional, but I'd rather not see the Persian dynasties. Between the Arabs, Seljuks, Ottomans, and Safavids, that area is already crowded both in terms of area and chronology, not to mention the very real possibility of the Persians surviving the Arab spawn in 3000 BC starts.

IMO, you're confusing states and civs. Conflict AMONG different Arab states is conflict WITHIN the Arab civ.

Click to expand...

Sorry if im an unclear there - I actually agree with you on this. When i talk about inter-state conflict, im referring to Egyptions or Persian Shia's, Moors or Turk (as Sunnis or Shias fighting.)

The mechanics of which, are the nuts and bolts we need to get a good ideas about.

So you have the Arabs dealing with Sunnism and Shi'ism.

The conditional emergence of (should Arabs be unstable) of Shi'ite states such as the Fatimids (Egypt) or Shi-ite Persians (unlikely as probably the Turks will rule over that.)

By the time the Moors arrive, who knows, there cities may be sunni or shia (resulting from other civs... but then thats a coin swap they can deal with upon emergence.)

I get that there is historical basis, but I see no reason why it would improve game play. As it says in the first post in the main thread, this is not a kitchen sink modmod. I still feel that anything would be a kitchen sink kind of addition, as it does not change/improve enough.

Lawrie said:

Sorry if im an unclear there - I actually agree with you on this. When i talk about inter-state conflict, im referring to Egyptions or Persian Shia's, Moors or Turk (as Sunnis or Shias fighting.)

The mechanics of which, are the nuts and bolts we need to get a good ideas about.

Click to expand...

Oh, if that's what you mean, then I disagree. I feel the Sunni-Shia split plays itself out more within civs than between them. Specifically, within the Arab and Egyptian civs. IMO the period where the dominant powers in the Middle East were the Buyids and Uqalids would be represented by the Arabs with Shia as a state religion, if at all. The initial conflict between Sunni and Shia should, as I see it, mostly be represented by the additional unhappiness and instability that the Arabs would have by having both religions present, only later changing into conflict between civs, depending on which ones ended up Shia.

Importantly, though, if all that Shia is going to add is more conflict among Islamic civs, then the people who object to its inclusion are right in saying a couple of diplo penalties and slightly more aggressive leaders in the region are adequate to the task. Honestly, as things currently stand I think there's plenty of action in that area, with the Ottomans quite often mixing things up with all of their Muslim neighbors. I mean they could possibly go after Egypt a little more often but that's not nearly enough gameplay rationale to add a whole new religion.

I get that there is historical basis, but I see no reason why it would improve game play. As it says in the first post in the main thread, this is not a kitchen sink modmod. I still feel that anything would be a kitchen sink kind of addition, as it does not change/improve enough.

Click to expand...

You fail to understand - a kitchen sink addition is something superficial, an addition in the context of this mod of something that has no relevance. In the discussion so far numerous members have already expressed interest in the idea, and consider its exception to be an anomoly. This thread also presupposes its relevance, so if you want to moan about it - do it once it is (included or not included.)

Hippo8085 said:

I still feel that anything would be a kitchen sink kind of addition, as it does not change/improve enough.

Click to expand...

How can you possibly say that, as we're still trying to figure out how exactly we'd like to see this implemented? That's terribly closed-minded of you. I mean, just my suggestions could build a kind of "love/hate" relationship between Shia and Sunni that's totally new for the mod, and that's just what I've come up with in the last few hours. I'm sure there will be other suggestions that blow mine out of the water. And yet you're already ready to dismiss suggestions that HAVEN'T YET BEEN MADE? Poor form.

IMO the gameplay effect of Shia/Sunni split can be accomplished by a combination of:

(1) Adjusting the Religious attitude modifiers of Islamic leaders. Take for example the current Abbas of Iran. He has zero Religious modifiers, which means he won't hesitate to attack the Ottomans or Mughals simply because they are both Islam. We do similar things with other Islamic leaders, to varying degrees.

(2) Hidden attitude modifiers between specific civs. RFCE/SoI both make plentiful use of this. For example, Portugal and Spain have hidden relations increase in RFCE to avoid them from killing each other too early. Leoreth tends to avoid this mechanism (because it makes the game more predictable), but for the Islamic schism we can make an exception.

(3) Shia Wonders (without adding Shia formally as a religion). Sikhism is represented in DoC by the Harmandir Sahib Wonder (requires Hinduism). Shintoism, arguably by the Himeji Castle Wonder (requires Buddhism). Shia Islam can be represented in similar ways via Wonders (which require Islam), through specific mechanics such as:

- An Islamic Wonder that requires you to be at war with another Islamic civ.

- An Islamic Wonder which lowers your Religion relations boost with other Islamic civs, but provides some other bigger benefits. Similar to The Round Church in RFCE.

- An Islamic Wonder with specific Tech requirements that make it more accessible to a specific Islamic civ rather than any of the others. For example, Topkapi Palace (Turks start with Civil Service).

Oh, if that's what you mean, then I disagree. I feel the Sunni-Shia split plays itself out more within civs than between them.

Click to expand...

I don't really see the evidence for that? We would have to presuppose that Persian civilisation, Egyption and the Moors can all be modelled through the Arabic experience of Islamic schism. That seems bizarre to me, given it produced a religious conflict that led civilisations to choose different denominations - much in the way of the Christian Kingdoms during the reformation.

IMO the period where the dominant powers in the Middle East were the Buyids and Uqalids would be represented by the Arabs with Shia as a state religion, if at all.

Click to expand...

The Buyids were Persian and the Uqalids were (principally Iraqi/Syrian) under the Persian influence. On the contrary that would indicate a Shia Persion as more appropriate rather than the Arabs imo.

The initial conflict between Sunni and Shia should, as I see it, mostly be represented by the additional unhappiness and instability that the Arabs would have by having both religions present, only later changing into conflict between civs, depending on which ones ended up Shia.

Click to expand...

I can go with this - especially if there are conditional respawns (as I think there already are) for Persia, Egypt, (or Iran?) that would perhaps or not adopt Shia - leaving it to chance. I think part of this can be made interesting with the Shia event perhaps 'converting' some cities into Sunni and others into Shia. This would not deny the religions both spreading to some cities, but would just leave the possibility of future respawns acquiring cities with a majority of one religion or another.

Importantly, though, if all that Shia is going to add is more conflict among Islamic civs, then the people who object to its inclusion are right in saying a couple of diplo penalties and slightly more aggressive leaders in the region are adequate to the task. Honestly, as things currently stand I think there's plenty of action in that area, with the Ottomans quite often mixing things up with all of their Muslim neighbors. I mean they could possibly go after Egypt a little more often but that's not nearly enough gameplay rationale to add a whole new religion.

Click to expand...

I think we lack conflict between the Islamic civs if we abstractly represent them as unified. Unfortunately one of the reasons the Islamic world struggled under the resurgent West... was the result of its own inter-state wars and conflicts.

I think the fact that certain civilisations chose to adopt Shi'ism over Sunnism - and sought to export it, makes for an interesting conflict worth exploring ingame.

As a side note, it was interesting to me reading, how the Shi'ites of the Fatimads tried to ally themselves to the Crusader states... Interesting stuff.

Some cool ideas jOnlySignIn - ill add them to the suggestions box.

This is what I would much rather see. The idea of a separate religion is what I view as superficial as it does not add very much which could be achieved otherwise.

(1) Adjusting the Religious attitude modifiers of Islamic leaders. Take for example the current Abbas of Iran. He has zero Religious modifiers, which means he won't hesitate to attack the Ottomans or Mughals simply because they are both Islam. We do similar things with other Islamic leaders, to varying degrees.

(2) Hidden attitude modifiers between specific civs. RFCE/SoI both make plentiful use of this. For example, Portugal and Spain have hidden relations increase in RFCE to avoid them from killing each other too early. Leoreth tends to avoid this mechanism (because it makes the game more predictable), but for the Islamic schism we can make an exception.

(3) Shia Wonders (without adding Shia formally as a religion). Sikhism is represented in DoC by the Harmandir Sahib Wonder. Shintoism, arguably by the Himeji Castle Wonder. Shia Islam can be represented in similar ways via Wonders, through specific mechanics such as:

- An Islamic Wonder that requires you to be at war with another Islamic civ.

- An Islamic Wonder which lowers your Religion relations boost with other Islamic civs, but provides some other bigger benefits. Similar to The Round Church in RFCE.

- An Islamic Wonder with specific Tech requirements that make it more accessible to a specific Islamic civ rather than all the others. For example, Topkapi Palace (Engineering with Civil Service).

Click to expand...

I like these suggestions, my only concern is does it go far enough? If Shi'ism was relegated to an individual civ, i'd be more like - perfect. But Shi'ism with the Fatimids saw it lead a 200 year empire (quite distinct to the Persians own version) or the Moorish states or Indian versions.

Ie. the religion is one that had a number of adherents to match Eastern Orthodoxy, and a geographical spread that has gone even further.

I like your ideas, i think they rock, and i think we should develop and explore them, but i think we should also consider the religious option too. Ultimately if we can present a summary of the evidence that makes the religion (acceptable) as an addition to the game (for those suggestions that wish it implemented) and if not, then suitable alternatives such as your suggestions that allow for it to at least depict as much as possible the kind of influences it had on civilisation.