G-Major 107

[img=right]http://www.civfanatics.net/methos/hof/staff/gauntlet.gif[/img]While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.


Settings:

• Victory Condition: Domination (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
• Difficulty: Deity
• Starting Era: Any
• Map Size: Large
• Map Type: Any
• Speed: Normal
• Civ: Ethiopia (Zara Yaqob)
• Opponents: Any
• Version: 3.19.003
• Date: 26th August to 25th September 2012

Must not play as Inca.
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

As suggested by Sun Tzu Wu in the Gauntlet Suggestion Thread.

ack! Large again! My computer hates you, Oz!

Don't shoot me I'm only the messenger here....

I will get the ball rolling here!

I am really quite pleased without myself and this victory. It is my first war victory (domination/conquest) on more difficult settings without an overpowered ancient era unit. A large map and normal speed made this a serious challenge to me. Anyway...



I chose a pangaea map, set it to high seas, and packed it in with 14 AI. I included Mansa and quite a few a-holes, but none that were protective and no psychos. I found horses just outside BFC. Zara's culture had already popped to the tile when AH was researched. I made a Horse Archer war on Huayna Cupcake, who was kind enough to build me some Pyramids. I was able to build the Great Library while taking his capitol.

I liberalized Military Tradition, then started killing again. I teched up to tanks and took my last four vassals with tanks. I had a major misjudgment when attacking Sulieman. I went after him with two stacks with lot of artillery and infantry which he shredded. I should have declared and let him come to me instead of going after him. This probably cost me about 30 turns.

I am sure this time will not stand up when other submissions come in.

Nice work shulec!!!

Sounds like you didn't use the Oromo Warrior at all? Or did you use them with the Curassiers for your second wave of war??

Congralutions on your "quick" (gauntlet is barely 3 days old) win, shulec!

I'd like to point out that I posted some strategy ideas in the Gauntlet Suggestions thread and this S&T thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=472740

I plan to refine the strategy I'm using for an Ancient Era start
for this gauntlet and describe it later, here in this thread.

Sun Tzu Wu

Ozbenno said:

Nice work shulec!!!

Sounds like you didn't use the Oromo Warrior at all? Or did you use them with the Curassiers for your second wave of war??

Click to expand...

I did draft quite a few Oromo's and built a total of 19. I decided to go with 2 movement units for surprise attacks and "quick" vassalation. I set up the map to be extremely crowded. I didn't want the AI getting to big and I didn't want them to be able spam a bunch of units after I DoW'd.

Another reason I didn't beeline Oromo's was the use of horse archers. I had several experienced HAs that I didn't want to waste by making them knights and suiciding them on cities with walls.

Sun Tzu Wu said:

Congralutions on your "quick" (gauntlet is barely 3 days old) win, shulec!

I'd like to point out that I posted some strategy ideas in the Gauntlet Suggestions thread and this S&T thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=472740

I plan to refine the strategy I'm using for an Ancient Era start
for this gauntlet and describe it later, here in this thread.

Sun Tzu Wu

Click to expand...

Thanks for the Kudos!

I have to admit that this thread Immortal curs rush tips! was invaluable in getting me through this game. Thanks to the original poster and contributors.

STW, I have to admit that I have been disappointed with your lack of submissions in the Deity Majors of late. You offer great insights for strategy, but you haven't been following through. Please show me a glimpse of that monster game talent you showed in G-Major 41!

Whoa, nice Shulec! A military victory on Deity/Normal is very impressive, especially on such a big map.

shulec said:

Thanks for the Kudos!

STW, I have to admit that I have been disappointed with your lack of submissions in the Deity Majors of late. You offer great insights for strategy, but you haven't been following through. Please show me a glimpse of that monster game talent you showed in G-Major 41!

Click to expand...

You are most welcome! As Kaitzilla mentioned and I paraphrase a bit: Winning Deity Normal Large Domination is awesome!

Yes, perhaps I should focus more on actually winning a Deity G-Major game and not so much on creating guides for others to do so. This gauntlet, I plan to two both faster than in the somewhat recent past.

Sun Tzu Wu

I've been exploring several different strategies for this gauntlet.

I have been having trouble getting to Gunpowder fast enough peacefully (either via plunders or The Oracle poisoning the Great Scientist gene pool too much) with enough hammer potential to generate sufficient Oromo Warriors to start capturing AI cities before too many AIs get to Feudalism (Longbowman). After this the AI starts getting other key military technologies like Machinery (Crossbowman), Engineering (3 plot movement via roads; Castles vs Catapult/Trebuchet bombardment), Civil Service (Maceman), and Guilds (Knights). Oromo Warrior Drill III/Drill IV have a really tough time versus Knights, so the military campaign needs to be well under way before Knights appear and one needs Pikemen (Engineering) to keep Knights from attacking Oromo Warrior stacks.

All but one of my attempts started with Oracling Theology. Only one attempt was foiled by an unusually eary AI Oracle completion on turn 45. Two of my attempts skipped Bronze Working and still got the Oracle on turn 59 well after Writing and Monotheism were completed, so Oracling Civil Service seems possible though it may require the 1st GS bulb Mathematics prior to completing Code of Laws.

One of my strategies, beelines Literature after oracling Theology for The Great Library and National Epic. That is quite similar to Snatty's article "BTS – A guide for higher difficulties for standard speed and maps (emperor+)":

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=248435

It differs in the beginning, where I oracle Theology, before beelining Literature. I also never research Archery, whereas his article recommends Archery after failing to find either Horse or Copper. Another difference is I assume No Barbarians whereas he assumes at least normal Barbarians.

I'm also considering beelines to Gunpowder, hoping to get there well before the AI gets to Feudalism, providing plenty of time to build 20 or more Oromo Warriors by the time the first AI gets to Feudalism. Stacks would include Catapults and/or Trebuchets which can do an optimal 1 turn partial bombard and a few barrages to chip away at the defenders, so the relatively more expensive Oromo Warriors will rarely face odds less than 90 percent. This beeline would research Paper (2/3 of a GS bulb = significant waste) and double bulb Education and research Gunpowder. It would avoid bulbing Philosophy and ignore the Liberalism race.

Another strategy I've been considering is either Oracling Code of Laws or even Civil Service and then beelining Literature for The Great Library and National Epic. GS bulb Philosophy ASAP, adopt Pacifism, bulb/research Paper, double bulb Education, avoid Machinery and bulb Liberalism taking Nationalism, build The Taj Mahal and research Gunpowder.

Finally, I'll give Snatty's strategy a chance too. I had a great game going, but got unlucky genes: GP, GP, GA, GS, GS, GS, GS. First two GS bulbed Education and last two bulbed Chemistry to allow access to a Steel for Canons. I got the GA with 5% odds! One Great Prophet at 25% odds is not unexpected, but two in a row at 25% is a little more remote (or should be). I used the first Great Prophet for a Golden Age. Second Great Prophet was used to construct The Church of the Nativity which immedaitely brought in 15 Wpt. I build a Missionary for Mansa Musa and he spread it to all his cities. With income from this shrine and a couple of ~10 Wpt resource trades and occasionally techology trade for some Wealth, I was able to keep research at 100% from completing Paper/starting Gunpowder through completing Steel. BTW, I foolishly completed Gunpowder before Liberalism, because none of tbe AI had Paper. However, Darius I acquired Paper and finished Education and Liberalism 2t before I could finish Liberalism building Research too in 7t. I suspect that Darius I may have single bulbed Education or just deficit researched Education/Liberalism at 100%. In the end, I was boxed in by the the four high technology AI leaders, including Mehmed II who was already fielding Cavalry and had over 40 units in a border city earlier for a while (including 10 Cuirassiers). The other four Civs would have been easy Cannon fodder, but they were too far away.

Right now, I'm trying some Worker stealing and beelining Animal Husbandry, if Horse is near, research Horseback Riding. Otherwise research Bronze Working -> Iron Working until Copper or Iron is found. I got to the Iron site literally just in time; Darius I was 1 plot away, but apparently didn't have Iron Working, since he didn't settle on or ajacent to the Iron. shulec may have the right idea about taking out a few (3-6) AI leaders early with Horse Archers. Even Axemen or Swordsmen could take out maybe 2-4 AI leaders, especially with later Chariots (distant Horse) to pillage strategic resources. This approach may work best with Horse in the BFC or capital Ring 3 (culture by turn 25-26).

Sun Tzu Wu

i have not much praxis on deity (played like 4 games to 1 AD ;-)), but are you sure Oromo's give sufficient advantage to be worthwhile the deep bulb path?

They are based on muskets in the end and they mesh well mostly only with cannons even on immortal-.

If I remember right Zara starts without Fishing...what about Machinery bulb? XBows eat classic era units at breakfast from my experience and quick beeline for construction opens Engineering for trebs if you're into basically medieval era warfare (I don't consider OW's renessaince even if technically maybe they are).

On good maps you should have machinery cca 900 BC and maybe sooner allowing for 500 BC attack date.

If you are for bulbing Edu to open Gunpowder then you're basically on the way towards Lib and that almost can mean Cuirs especially if you beeline Lit after Oracle Theo (Music is something that you can easily add for GA)...

I think the large size combined with normal speed can make some things really tricky (travel distance, higher number of cities) compared to experience gained on standard maps.

I'm having a quick run-through, playing with minimum peacemonger opponents.
That of course means I don't get the Oracle, Music, Liberalism, etc (since I'm not really used to keeping up with Deity) but does mean there isn't a big stack waiting for me.

Oromos are actually fairly powerful, but you do need to build them, not draft them, to feel the full effect - promoting all the way down the drill line gives good odds at surprising power ratios. Mounted units aren't really a problem either - you have access to Formation right away, and that, combined with the occasional pike, are enough.

I first declared war at 560AD, with ~35 Oromos and 20 Cats (which really were sufficient against Cuirs), and hope to win ~1500, depending on how much time and tech it takes to roll through the AIs

Thanks for the very helpful comments, vranasm and ZPV.

My prefered deep bulb path to Gunpowder does utilize Liberalism to get Nationalism to draft Oromo Warriors. Of course one only needs Military Tradition to build Cuirrassiers. However, I'd prefer to draft Oromo Warriors at 1 Pop than 3-4 Pop whip Cuirrassiers. I'm guessing that three Drill III Oromo Warriors can do more damage that one Combat II or Flanking II Cuirrassier. Also at a cost of only 1 Pop, the heavier losses that Oromo Warriors might sustain versus Cuirrassiers are probably on parity to the fewer Cuirrasier loses, measured in effective hammers lost. However, as ZPV mentioned, one only needs Catapults (for minimal 1 turn bombard/barrage attacks as I mentioned in my last post) to support Oromo Warrior attacks and one wouldn't want to hold back Cuirrassiers with siege, unless it were Cannons. Now if one does have Canons, wouldn't it be better to have large numbers of Oromo Warriors and maybe a few Cuirrassiers/Grenadiers for flat, non-forested stack defense? There is also the option to upgrade some Drill IV and better Oromo Warriors to Rifleman when Rifling is acquired; Drill IV Riflemen would be awesome.

I've gone from 8 opponents to 14 opponents with the idea of using a Horse Archer rush to take out several AI leaders early on. Notice that increasing the # of opponents brings the Land Domination threshold from 60% down to just 51%. That means with roughly equal land shares, one needs to wipe only out 7 of the 14 opponents to come close to Land Domination; By adding one's own settled land, killing 7 of 14 should be enough, especially when saving a few great artists to immediate pop borders of the last few cities captured plus 100% culture slider and Free Speech. This should not be that difficult to accomplish even on a Large map as explained as follows ...

After the Horse Archers have captured 3-4 opponents, their captured citites will be grown to maximum Population for drafting Oromo Warriors when Gunpowder is completed. This is planned to occur about the time the first AI leader completes Feudalism. When a sizeable force of Oromo Warriors has been drafted over a few turns, hopefully only a few other AI leaders will even have Feudalism and maybe one will have Machinery.

Hopefully an early Shrine can be part of the strategy. Perhaps the builder of Stonehenge or The Oracle will also found one of the first three Religions and build a Shrine for the Horse Archers to capture (hopefully built on a flat plot with at most cultural defense 40, and poorly defended). Giving a missionary to each of the Spiritual opponents should be enough for them to spread the religion to all their cities, thus helping to finance their own destruction. Otherwise, a Great Scientist will be used be bulb Philosophy and almost certinly found Taoism; maybe a Great Prophet can be squeezed out of this city in time or planned for earlier by hiring some early Priests in a minor city.

Sun Tzu Wu

I think if you go Horse Archer then Cuirs feel even more natural. On Immortal- the cuirs rush is absolutely devastating and I know about at least 1 deity player who heavily prefers Cuirs on deity games (Mylene) and has great success with this.

What I wanted point out a bit again is the large map aspect. Mounted warfare spares turns due to the movement being 2 tiles instead of 1 of siege warfare. The larger map the more important this aspect imo is.

If I understood you right you don't use cats for collateral only for reducing culture defense and you then have solid attrition in the OW ranks.

I will offer for comparision my long time anecdotal evidence for mounted warfare which is 1:3 death:kills ratio (for 1 dead cuir I kill 3 enemy units).

I guess with spies on some especially tough places you could make the ratio better. This ratio is for pure rush without reducing cultural defense in cities facing mostly longbows, pikes and from what I read from Mylene/Kossin should be achievable even on deity for couple first AI's (the number of AI's you met on medieval units before meeting Rifles will differ for difficulty of course. On Immortal you can sweep the map on cuirs alone, on deity most probably not)

edit:
one last thing I wanted...why HA->cuirs as plan if you go HA's is even more good, that HA->Cuirs upgrade is considered one of the better upgrade paths/costs and worthwhile, so if you happen to have nice stack of 10-15 elite HA's you will upgrade it for the money from 1 GM mission.

I understand that early Cuirrassiers are very powerful, but I prefer to mainly draft Oromo Warriors and use them instead. To me that's the main reason we are playing Zara Yaqob. I may upgrade some Horse Archers to Currassiers, if opportunity costs of acquiring Military Tradition seem reasonable. Frankly, after Gunpowder, bulbing Chemistry and researching Steel for Canons is seems more appealing. Any kind of seige will improve the odds of Oromo Warriors.

I plan to use seige both for bombarding and barraging attacks, but only for one turn combined, so the Oromo Warriors can attack on the same turn with no worse that about 90% odds; The exception being that one defender might not be damaged by the first few catapult attacks, thus an Oromo Warrior might be used at lower odds to kill or heavily damage the remaining healthy defender, so not all catapults face certain suicide when barraging. Note that dozens of Catapults may be built, starting right after acquiring Construction in preparation for use with Oromo Warriors. The Catapults may outnumber the Oromo Warriors 2 to 1 when the Oromo Warrior war begins, because attrition will be high and Catapults are the only military unit that my cities will produce until Steel. The Catapults will have three main promotions, City Raider I Accuracy (for bombarding only; or for goods odds on barraging heavily damaged units), Collateral II (suicide siege for maximum collateral damage), and possibly City Raider II/III (barraging versus a significantly damaged defender with perhaps 75% odds or better).

Yes, Zara Yaqob does not start with Fishing, so bulbing Machinery and Engineering is a viable option, but I want to use Oromo Warriors with devastating Drill promotions as early as possible instead.

There are many other ways to win Domination/Conquest than appear in threads of the Strategy and Tips forums and favored by players who habitually frequent said threads. I plan to find a way to effectively use Oromo Warriors in this gauntlet; any strategy to exclusively use some other unit isn't all that appealing to me. I' d rather "follow my own direction" (for this gauntlet at least).

Sun Tzu Wu

ZPV said:

I first declared war at 560AD, with ~35 Oromos and 20 Cats (which really were sufficient against Cuirs), and hope to win ~1500, depending on how much time and tech it takes to roll through the AIs

Click to expand...

Any chance you can post the 560 AD save??? I would love to see it and dissect it! (Post after you submit if you are not comfortable posting now.) Thanks.

shulec said:

Any chance you can post the 560 AD save??? I would love to see it and dissect it! (Post after you submit if you are not comfortable posting now.) Thanks.

Click to expand...

If I finish before the 10th (the half-way update), I'll attach it as one of the intermediate saves when I submit. If I don't , then I'll be in touch.

So far I have used an even mix of low peaceweight leaders and high peaceweight leaders with the idea that this spawns many wars which it does. It does complicate Diplomancy though and I'd prefer to focus my attention mainly on the War Department aspects. So I'm going to try 8 high peaceweight leaders with Aggressive AI on to slow down their research rate a bit. This should allow an initial REX and peaceful coexistance until Liberalism --> Nationalism. Before getting there, I plan to stock pile a few Catapults. I plan to have Globe Theatre set up in the highest growth city, drafting there as much as possible down to Pop 5. I'll rotate the draft through my other cities with the culture slider high enough to prevent starvation. After about 5t of drafting, I should have enough Oromo Warriors to start my War Campaign. All cities at this point will be producing Catapults and continue to do so and draft more Oromo Warriors as needed.

I like this idea better, since nearly all the fighting will be with Oromo Warriors and that's really the point of this gauntlet.

Thanks ZPV for sharing your settings and giving a glimpse of your Grand Strategy for this gauntlet!

Sun Tzu Wu