Elizabeth's greener pastures (BUFFY IMM Always War)

BornInCantaloup

Agent of Chaos
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
2,867
Location
Cantaloupe Island
Welcome, Miss Tudor, it is 4000 B.C. and you lead a small tribe of Englishmen. Your worshiping folks have gathered around the delta of the river Thames, where rain is abundant and the grass is green.
Being Philosophical and Financial, you are confidant your reign will be one of enlightenment and prosperity.

Unfortunately, the sky is obscured by clouds, massing behind the horizon, far beyond these castle's walls. Indeed, rumour has it that your virginal leadership is criticized amongst other emerging nations.
That king aspires to marry you, this bothersome prince squats your court and the poets – the fools! – praise the beauty of your unborn children. Ah! So dull and shallow are these men! A perpetual hindrance to the wits of your magnificent mind – yet it is with the pretence to assist you that they commit their deeds. Cannot they understand that they are not needed to rule by your side?
It is now your task to have these men realize and accept their rightful place in this world. For, otherwise, you fear other rulers will lose their temper in dismay and anger. They wouldn't dare plot the downfall of the English Empire, or would they? Now that wouldn't be very much philosophical!
There is also this most indecent gossip that troubles you, that was drawn to you, about another queen... Oh! How jealous and desperate she must be! You find it only natural but deeply regrettable that not every woman would be gifted with your height of thought.

Miss Tudor, you have sent your scouts to explore the surrounding lands but they have yet to return with their head on. What steps will you take to flip the situation and bless this world with everlasting wealth and wisdom?


Our start :
Spoiler :


Our settings :
Spoiler :


Always war. Despite her diplomatic assets, Miss Tudor isn't popular amongst her neighbours.
Hemispheres. Because everyone and their little brother loves their ships.
Tropical. So our green pastures are even greener and our river actually looks like a river.
2 Continents + Islands (vs Tiny Islands). This means some civilizations may have a large island of their own that can be connected by coast/culture to a main continent.
There is one extra AI for a total of 7 AIs. They're handpicked so that neither the most obnoxious combo appears, nor a band of flower-powered hippies.



I did run a short survivability and balance check. While I cannot guarantee for the other side of the world, our part looks playable – without distorting settings that are meant to be rather... unforgiving. Read along the spoilers if you want to know more about what to expect.


Spoiler :
Oh you misclicked!
Kidding, click again...

Spoiler :
Who the rivals are:
Spoiler :
Rivals are a mix of two warmongers (Shaka and Ragnar), two expansionists (Joao II and Catherine), one zealot (Isabella), a builder (Louis XIVth) and a techer (Mansa Musa).


What does “our part looks fairly balanced” mean?
Spoiler :
We can access strategic resources (yeah!) but don't count on BFC copper to “farm” the isolated super-close neighbour (noez!). We have room to expand (yeah!) but don't expect an extra large backyard (noez!). No AI seems to be a non-factor from turn 0. A wide variety of strategies seems usable (nice land).



Mini-tips:
Spoiler :
Promoting your units is key. If you want a head-start on the military, consider going warrior first. And don't go lose your first WWII warrior simply because you attacked a scout at 70% odds. Go choke and steal workers (if you can, that is; otherwise, find something else to do...).

Even with copper/horses, do not dismiss Archery for too long. Archers are cheaper than both chariots and Axes. They're also more versatile on defense. Do not rush Archery either, at least without a reason.

Settle on hills (even green) when given the choice. If you can create a choke point, create it, cherish it and defend it before you can go on the offensive.
If at all possible, keep the commerce tiles (cities) at the back, well behind your cultural borders.

Explore early and keep some scouts outside your borders. Will allow for informed decisions and give you time to react to the AIs moves.
You will need to be ready to defend against a 5 units stack entering your borders by turn 70 – requires some numbers and mobility. Don't be and you might lose a city straight off to a swordsman and 4 archers.
Locating the AIs is key to predict their attack path and set up your defense properly.

Since you can't trade but the AIs can, espionage is relevant to an AW game. The Great Wall, The Oracle, Alphabet and Code of Laws all are decent (crucial?) short to mid term targets. Just like in isolation, it is important to raise your health and happy caps early (civics, buildings, resources).
You can build early wonders, by the way, provided your production remains balanced (you define “balanced”).

Remember there is another hemisphere: don't neglect your long-term research potential.

If you're unsure, I'm indecisive. Go check past AW threads for more insight. Especially those started by Snaaty, featuring games played on Deity difficulty. Long reads but plenty of good tips inside.

Not the same kind of meal, well shorter: you might want to check Diagonale's article on the art of surviving and defensive warfare.


Sorry about the BUFFY mod exclusivity. I tried to convert the save to allow the use of different mods but Lock modified assets won't allow that. Here's how you can install BUFFY.

Now, good luck to all participants. I hope you'll have fun. No shame in losing this one on the first go (and even on the next ones). We have nice land so, if you're used to play on Emperor/Immortal difficulty, you're encouraged to give the map a shot. However, take the settings for what they are – staying alive as long as possible may be a goal in itself.
Also, if you'd rather win but don't want to replay the map 10 times, stop (or save) before making crucial decisions (research path, build orders) to post your situation. You can also open some spoilers to read other shadows and get some inspiration. Hopefully, the forum can help you.
 

Attachments

Thoughts about the opening scene:

Coast to the west, rivers going towards coast to the south. AIs must be somewhere east and/or north.

14 forests in London's BFC if we settle in place.
This is likely a forest spam kind of start. Jungle belt might be nearby.

Wherever we settle, London will be a great cottage spot: riverside is abundant.
SIP gets 3 hills and 11 production. Best long-term location.

Settling the plains hills 1S is appealing for a faster start, even though it decreases production to 8 (magical number for +25% bonuses). +1 unhealth from floodplains -compared to SIP- is bad but somewhat negated by the presence of 2 grain resources. Other bad point about the plains hills location is that it decreases the number of forests to 9. Finally, settling 1S means settling away from the northern AIs.
Despite the cons, I think settling on the plains hills is the better choice due to faster development.


Warrior move:
Nothing to reveal north, west and south .
Moving 1E and 1SE can be considered.

Other possible settling locations are 2E and 2E1S. Keep the corn, hills, plenty of riverside. Settling inland is good: better maintenance, secures more land.

--> Warrior moves 1E to reveal tiles 3E of the settler.



I probably won't play more than 10-30 turns a day on this one and will update regularly. Next steps will be spoilered.
 
4000-3000BC (T0-25):

Spoiler :
Warrior 1E revealed a great long term location.
12 hammers from 3 hills + city tile. 4 floodplains. Plenty of riverside.
Spoiler :


View of London:
Spoiler :


Catching a scout for 2xp:
Spoiler :


Turn 10, Agriculture is researched. A plan can be formed:
Spoiler :

There are two great city spots close by with gems and stone. I'd love to settle the stone with city2 to get the Great Wall.
In order to get both cities up asap and the wonder, tech path will be Bronze Working into Masonry.
It may be a not so good idea to skip Mysticism, since the Oracle is a worthy target but... well, this will provide for a faster G. Wall.

Mini-micro to get a second Warrior out when reaching size3:
Spoiler :


T25, Bronze Working is done. Masonry ready to be started. Final view:
Spoiler :

Need to scout the stone site with fresh warrior. Need to promote other warrior to Woodsman2 (3xp for now as I fled from most animals encountered).
As it is, I intend to settle on the stone.

Tomorrow, we settle other cities. Hopefully two of them, if jungle growth allows it. The pigs are in great danger with 5 adjacent jungle tiles :nuke: Gems are relatively safe. Still, better scout now than station a warrior on a tile.

Further research: I'm not decided. The Wheel and Animal Husbandry are attractive. Without Copper in sight, maybe Archery should be considered right after Masonry.
 
Does Always War mean the AIs are always at war with the player but can trade peacefully among themselves? I've never actually played it, but assumed it meant everyone was always at war with everyone else.
 
Always war isn't a free for all: it is player vs AIs... which accounts for the difficulty.
AI vs AI diplomacy is unchanged. Player vs AI diplomacy is disabled.


I haven't played the format much either. I can recall taking an Emperor AW game to the early ADs, a year ago or so but I don't have much experience beyond that. I probably experienced a sudden death on some of Snaaty's maps as well.
I kinda "trained" for this one (since it's probably above my level): in particular, knowing when the first ennemy waves can attack (no sooner than T60) is an important info.
Also I tried some LHC games. Tech path in isolation and AW can be somewhat similar (Monarchy a gogo).
 
It's a bit of a pity no one else has taken the challenge yet but This is going to be a great one. good luck BIC!
 
Hope to squeeze it into the schedule.:crazyeye:

Would also be my first AW but did read something about it a year ago.



On the game:

I am not sold on London's location. If AI (you know which but I don't have to use spoilers this way) settles stone/corn city, and based on current information, it is possible, your capital will be on the front line and it is not on the hill. Plains hills is my favorite since, if you have short timeframe in which you can expand to the neighbours, you need faster start. Also, it pumps units faster and can be whipped better if need be. London is maybe too long termish... I understand AW game can profit a lot from cottaged capital since almost all other cities will be blockers.
GW is a good move. You'll get many generals and, what is really important, you'll get GSpy.


I have three questions since you, unlike me, have some AW experience:

GSpy: Scotland Yard in Bureau capital or Espionage missions? Or use first for scouting and Espionage mission and second for SY?

Great generals: Attach for drill 4 or settle them to crank drill 4 units later?

Walls and castles? Since I suppose AI will be at the border almost all the time and bombarding, why bother, or am I missing something...?



Good luck BIC, and I am glad you are making a high quality thread with short turnsets and analysis.
 
So the AIs will never war with each other since they are always at war with the player?
 
It's a bit of a pity no one else has taken the challenge yet
Oh I'm sure some will... maybe you will :p
Save is downloaded, it will be played.

I have three questions since you, unlike me, have some AW experience:

GSpy: Scotland Yard in Bureau capital or Espionage missions? Or use first for scouting and Espionage mission and second for SY?

Great generals: Attach for drill 4 or settle them to crank drill 4 units later?

Walls and castles? Since I suppose AI will be at the border almost all the time and bombarding, why bother, or am I missing something...?
1- I'd probably settle an early spy. Maybe build Scotland Yard if I'm inclined to raise the espionage slider early. But one needs Classical era techs to do so, and spare hammers to invest on spies.
Definitely not infiltrate before Renaissance or late-Medieval techs are available: the more EPs you have on an AI, the more it will invest on you. Infiltrate early and you might cripple their research while making tech stealing much more costly.

2- Elizabeth being neither Aggressive, Protective, nor Charismatic, the first Great General might be best spent settled. Shock Axes are good to clear ennemy units. CGII archers are fine units as well.
Also, a settled GG is most welcome to transition from defence to offence with little losses (so are Catapults). Maybe settling the first GG is a bad idea but then the 2nd one should be, imho.
From memory, one needs a very strong unit to really benefit from Drill4. An archer would scream for Combat and/or shock, at least.

3- Walls are great anytime before Construction and/or catapults are stacked. Question is: when do Catapults become stacked? Pretty late, especially if Stone is available from scratch. Castles... I dunno, depends, I guess.

4- Bonus answer: My London isn't a hill city but I sure hope I can settle other (hill) cities towards the AIs. Remember, this is no Deity game ;) AIs expand slower (especially since they'll build units, being at war and all... they also build less wonders, by the way, building units and all...).
Anyways, if London is attacked, it will have 40% culture and a river to boost defense, that ain't nothing and will have to do.
Regardless, yes, settling the plains hills might be the better choice. I understand it is the spot you've chosen for yourself :goodjob:

@All encouragements: thanks, that's appreciated :) Please, let me encourage you as well!
@Short sets and analysis: mostly doing my best to avoid an early loss...

So the AIs will never war with each other since they are always at war with the player?
Never is a strong term. In theory, AIs might still not like each other despite shared war bonuses. Buddhist Monty boxed in by Hindu Gandhi might enter a war vs AI, I suppose.
Also, this is a Hemisphere map, so the other continent might wage war before contact is made. Before contact = peace with the player.
Still, yes, it's likely that AIs on our Hemisphere won't wage war with each other.
 
Immortal level is the highest level that human players are capable of winning on a natural map with default settings. The difficulty is comparable to 8~9/10 of deity games.

However, the amount of time and energy involved in the game is tremendous.
 
Immortal level is the highest level that human players are capable of winning on a natural map with default settings. The difficulty is comparable to 8~9/10 of deity games.

However, the amount of time and energy involved in the game is tremendous.
Do you mean that Immortal Always War is just as easy/difficult as 80 or 90% of all deity games? As in... only 10 to 20% of deity games are harder :eek:
I wouldn't take your word for granted on that matter (no offence intended) but you may very well be right; you've already completed such games, after all.
Hmm... didn't you rather mean that Immortal Always War was as easy/difficult as a deity game whose difficulty you'd rate 8~9/10? That would corroborate my anticipations (mere anticipations, granted).


This map was very carefully selected via mapfinder, out of several hundreds. Not to provide the easiest game, mind you, but a playable, enjoyable, fair and winnable game (quite the agenda, hence the uber-capital and great surroundings). So this one's already on the easy side of IMM AW.
A real "easy" map would provide a 15+ cities backyard. Or a semi-iso start with Catherine 10 tiles away and BFC copper. Hard maps came in abundance.


@Tremendous time and energy... As you surely know, I'm not willing to invest all of that :lol: Tremendous is all relative, though.
Yet, your post makes me think the map is much easier than I anticipated. Especially with such golden land. Cool.


Bottom line: no way I'd know before playing. So let's play and try to crush/withstand those AIs!
 
3000BC-2160BC (T25-46):

Spoiler :
Spent a little time solving the worker's problem: how to get both settlers AND the Great Wall asap?
Worker can chop 2 forests into the Great Wall, which can be whipped at size2 (15H without stone, 30H with it). Growth to size2 takes 8 turns (which is enough to chop 2 forests, provided the worker is on site when city2 is settled).
Training the settler takes 8 turns minimum as well. So that leaves us with the possibility to chop two forests into the settler.

Like that:
Spoiler :


Next, we lose our 3xp warrior to a French scout. It will remain stationned to heal so the other warrior will take it out for 2xp:
Spoiler :


Settler out, chopping started down south. I forgot to revolt into Slavery, hypnotized by the dreadful sight of a Skirmisher. Better spend a turn on a warrior now and escape death. Also note the discovery of copper and wet wheat:
Spoiler :


Our lone worker starts a long trek to go improve the gems. It will be there and active on the turn city3 is settled.
Spoiler :

Turn after, we make up for lost time and revolt into Slavery.


Getting the Great Wall (relief...):
Spoiler :




Final view. Third city settled, gems being improved, 4xp warrior next to a wounded barb warrior. Copper site to the south-east is the next city spot. London will start a worker at size4 and maybe whip it. York will start a worker at size2 and very surely whip it (to farm tile 1NW or support London).
Spoiler :


Further tech path is debattable. Pottery and Animal Husbandry are attractive. I've already invested 2 beakers (2!!!) into The Wheel. London needs tiles to work and commerce is needed to fund expansion + support maintenance. AH, on the other hand, will greatly improve Nottingham city.

Also worth of consideration: Great Person generation. I'd much rather have the Spy as my second (or 3rd, or 4th) GP than as my 1st. So I very much want a fast Library in London.
It takes 9 turns to produce the first great scientist: that leaves a 15 turns window to get a Library in London and hire 2 scientists. Can't... do... it... Or can I?

Next set, we start getting a defensive force, improve our land some more and try to set up further expansion.
 
Oh! I see...
Now your post makes sense and I can get scared again!
Industrious/Modern era stalemate is especially scary to me. Need to get there first, sure.

Oops, forgot to change civics after 1st settler again... :blush:
 
Winning AW in my experience depends on having some defendable land (peninsula or blocked by mountains) with front-lane city, that will take all the pressure, giving your backyard cities time to develop.
Also turning on "no tech trading" is kind of critical, player have to go spy economy if not. But that's for Deity, haven't try it on Immortal yet.

Will give this a shot.
 
Welcome onboard, GKey :goodjob:
I can remember you mentionned your interest for this map when I cooked it, a few months back. Glad you didn't change your mind. Hope you enjoy the map.
Wish you many happy cottages and 6000 years prosperity :lol:

@my game:
Spoiler :
I was a bit crazed out yesterday for not revolting into Slavery right after the 1st settler got out (used to mention that common mistake as a personnal trademark in my signature... go figure :mischief:)
Well, it ain't that bad. I've lost a turn for all actions in York but the settler heading for Nottingham also got out 1 turn earlier. Trade-off.
Of course, York has a better output/turn than Nottingham, especially without Animal Husbandry to grow the latter quick. York will also contribute more with the expansion (workers/settlers). On the nice side, gems will be used sooner. Cold comfort but comfort nonetheless.
 
2160-1560BC (T46-61):

Spoiler :
For those 15 turns,first thing was deciding whether I'd try to push for an early Great Scientist or not. I ended up not trying for it. It would have been a tight race and could have slowed down pop and commerce growth. 2 areas in which I already feel backward.

So I went for Pottery and then Animal Husbandry. Writing may be next in line, or I might try for a pot shot at The Oracle.
This stop was a good occasion to think about future tech path.

There are a number of Classical Era techs that I would like to get.
Mathematics is first in line to help with expansion and wonder production.
Monarchy is next to help with growth and production – if I don't build the Pyramids, an appealing wonder.
Construction is an important tech to get as well. Both for catapults and movement. Bonus if we get Ivory.
Aesthetics is intriguing, provided I get the ivory tile and can build the Statue of Zeus. +100% ennemy war weariness may be just cute or a killer. I don't know. There is already -50% war weariness for Always War. The synergy with the Great Wall is especially cool. Absence of marble nearby makes this plan kinda awkward and low priority, though.

Code of Laws and Metal Casting are important to get, finally, but more in the techs they open: Civil Service and Engineering/Feudalism are worthy mid-term objectives. Further than that, Education, Banking, Rifling and Astronomy are notable tresholds.


Well, we aren't quite that far at the moment.

The round started with the horrifying discovery that Slavery already costs 3gpt. Eeek! That accounts for the slowdown!
First real step is the whipping of a 2nd worker in London, asap. Then I proceeded chopping the first 2 archers:
Spoiler :


Reaching the Wheel. We finally have a woodsman2 warrior, taking the occasion to heal on the pigs for a few turns:
Spoiler :


York completes its first Archer and starts on the 3rd worker. It will be whipped asap as I need a cottage burst. We're very late with the improvements.
Now we have two archers in the south: they'll try to secure the copper location that Mansa is camping with his City Garrison archer:
Spoiler :



WW2 dies now, on a jungled hill, to a barb attack. Aaargh! Will need another scout or two.
Here's the known land in the north / north-west:
Spoiler :

Lots of city spots. Incentive to REx and defend.

Things go better with Mansa's skirmisher than with WW2. We can lure him towards London and pass the 2 archers through.
The downside is that I had to whip an Archer, losing yet a pop point. You can see I put some overflow in the Barracks in London. That was probably too early. Time to regrow and London will whip its Granary, by the way. The incoming chop allowed a very nice 28 overflow. Workers are mostly getting in place to cottage.
Spoiler :


Mansa won't attack. He won't camp the forested hills either.
Meanwhile, split archers get a nice view, discovering both Mansa's culture and a settler!
Spoiler :


First cottage is done and we work the Clams for a turn to get Animal Husbandry a little bit faster. Granary overflow in London will complete the Barracks. And then we're set to grow.
Spoiler :


Final view:
Spoiler :

Need to stop working those clams.
Mansa has a moving skirmisher next to Nottingham's pigs... Can't improve them now. I hope he'll pass through or I'll have to get 2 archers out of the city.
Settling 1NE of copper would be very nice, securing the wheat for another city.

Overall, I did whip too much. 4 total pop is really low. However, I kinda feel safe. Also I didn't really benefit from distracting hammers into the infrastructure (Barracks, notably).
Granary and workforce are ready to kick in, though.

Next step we decide between Writing and Priesthood and start on Maths or Monarchy. EDIT: really, we go for Maths and try to expand.
We'll also try to get the 4th city, or maybe the 5th if we can get our pigs improved. More cottages. More population. More map knowledge. More copper, generally.
Not sure how far I'll play. Probably a longer session than this one.

Judaism was just founded by the French. Other continent must have Buddhism (Isabella?) and Hinduism (Ragnar?). This is of good omens. If our hemisphere could be the most advanced...
 
1560-875BC (T61-80):

Spoiler :
This is the set that would mark the first defensive operations.
I went for Writing -> Maths. I banked a little gold in between but couldn't get the spare production to complete a Library.

There starts to happen too many things to make a turn per turn write-up. So here are the basic lines.
2 Workers focused on cottaging London's floodplains. Northern worker stayed on the look-out to improve the pigs, roading and chopping a little in the meantime.

London grew to size 6 to whip a Settler.
York and Nottingham both 2pop whipped their granary at size 4. So we didn't get the all-out expansion I was hoping for. Instead, we have a solid 3 cities base with relatively early infrastructure. Most other hammers went into Archers and I could restart scouting a bit along the western coast.

Here goes:

Mansa has Iron and is now sending his first stack. Good thing we have intell on this so early:
Spoiler :


Next turn we spot the first French troops approaching our culture. No big deal: an archer and two heavily wounded Chariots:
Spoiler :

Mansa sent another Skirmisher to scout around our borders, threatening the pigs tile. Had to use archers to block its path and protect the pigs for a couple of turns.

This was successful since the Skirmisher went up into the jungle. Now both archers can retreat to Nottingham, not going through the Banana tile! I want to be sure Louis goes on that tile so his Chariots can't pillage/threaten our pigs.
Louis not having copper (yet?) is very good news, by the way.
Spoiler :


Louis' stack getting stuck:
Spoiler :


Meanwhile, in the South, Mansa's stack is a much more serious threat and approaching London. Our 2 scouting archers will have retreated in time and we'll get some more for defence (Settler overflow -> Archer).
The Great Spy is born and will be settled in London. EPs are now focused on Mansa (who has Iron Working, Alpha and is working on Code of Laws).
Spoiler :


Come on, Mansa, charge over the river!
Spoiler :


Oh no, he doesn't. Lack of attack courage makes the AI do dangerous moves. Like forking (undefended) cities:
Spoiler :

Leaving the whole garrison in London would very surely result in York's loss. So I had to:
- give minimal defence chances to York (set a whip for next turn & bring a couple units to reinforce);
- have Mansa think he could get somewhere by attacking London. And this is the crucial point: having barely enough defenders to force the attack and still win the fight by a large margin.
So we keep 4 archers in to resist a 5 units stack.

Next turn: ok, we lost an archer:
Spoiler :

Skirm will be cleaned up without further losses. Settler is out, going scouting. Mansa doesn't have 2-move units so he is safe even in the wilderness. Archers will soon follow to secure the copper location.

First hammers going into London's Library:
Spoiler :


2 archers + Walls in Nottingham repel the French. Our first Great General is born (settled in London). I want the Pyramids more and more. Need to settle some forests.
Spoiler :

We can see the French culture already. I won't be able to expand that much into the North, north-east. North-west is crucial to get.

Finally, we get Mathematics and "conquer" the Copper spot. We won't lose it. City will probably start with Walls and then try to get a little culture. Long term, it would be best if it had a LOT of culture.
Spoiler :

Lacks 1 turn to complete the roads where both workers stand.

Overview:
Spoiler :


Wonders:
Spoiler :


No news of Shaka yet, despite him being the score leader. His Impis are expected in Nottingham.
Next set we (probably) head for Monarchy. As an alternative, we could head for Iron Working or Metal Casting. Other options aren't really attractive. Unless the War Elephants option is explored...
 
I'm following this game with interest. AW is pretty intriguing, so I'm going to see if i can learn some things here and maybe try one later myself (though not on Immortal).
 
I'd imagine some tactics from multi player can be brought over in to always war on higher levels. For example, it'd be a really good idea to have sentries outside your borders fortified on hills. Getting rid of all of the jungle and forest near borders will be really helpful.

Just some food for thought, maybe settle some really crappy cities near you and let the AI take it by leaving it undefended/very lightly. Fortify spies in advance in the city and when the city gets captured use the spies to steal all of the techs you can. It may be a good idea to beeline CoL for courthouse and conf. Having a holy city and the crap city with conf in it near your capital will make for some really cheap espionage. At the same time, promote your units via CR route and once you steal techs, take the city back. Running espionage slider higher than 0% is almost necessary. The Great Wall is a great bonus to go for as well for the great generals. With all of the GG's, one could go for a super medic explorer and settle the rest to get out level 5/6/7 units by the time you're ready to attack. You could let alternating AI take the cities to steal their techs.
 
Back
Top Bottom