C2C Combat Mod Introduction - Step II (New Promotion Types)

Thunderbrd

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Introduction to the C2C Combat Mod
Step II: New Promotion Types


Last night we discussed the Sub Combat Classes and how many new options it would open up for us. There, I mentioned, on a couple of occasions, Equipments, Diseases, Poisons, and Critical Injuries.

Tonight, I'll detail how the setup for those have been designed in the Combat Mod.

But first, I'd like to take a moment to establish a little groundwork for further understanding. (I also just debugged this element in the SVN.)

If you're running the SVN version, you may have noticed that the Combat promotions are not displaying all the steps underneath the level you've promoted up to. Thus, when you have Combat II, you don't show Combat I (but the effect of both exists on the unit - this should be working correctly now.) When you have Combat III on a unit, it does not display the unit as having Combats II and I and on and on... each step up overrides the previous step but maintains its values on the unit.

How has this been done? Well, I must preface this discussion by saying I've got a tweak or two to come to finalize this method for us to get moving on updating all the current promotion sets. You'll notice that ONLY the Combat (star) line is acting in this manner so far. I didn't update them all because I had a feeling I'd make a small change to make this easier for us to keep things straight down the road.

But in short, the method is as follows:

Each Promotion chain is defined by a LineID. It's currently a number but the tweak to come (VERY soon) will make it a name definition instead (but it will still act as a number in the code.) Of course, right now, only the Combat line has a defined LineID.

Each Promotion in a given Line has a Line Priority as well. This is the step along the chain definition. Thus Combat I has a Line Priority of 1 while Combat V has a line priority of 5 and so on.

Without getting into the amazingly complex details of how this works, suffice it to say that it retains knowledge that you 'have' the previous promos for purposes of fulfilling prerequisites of other promotions.

Alright this sounds simple enough, but I wanted to mention it here because the Line Priority works a bit differently for the new kinds of Promotion Categories. And once I get further in here I'll explain that in more detail.

Largely, this became critically necessary for the Combat Mod to include this method of overriding promos, not just because we'd all wanted it for a long time to help unclutter the Unit Box, but because the Combat Mod will add a lot of new promos to units of these new types and its critical to be able to see what you've got without it stretching too many promos off the screen.

We have the following new Promotion Categories (only completed the first one tonight - more to come here tomorrow):

Afflictions
This is an overall category that includes Diseases, Poisons, and Critical Hits. Defining a Promotion as an Affliction is as simple as changing the bAffliction tag in the Promotion Infos file to 1 (defaults to 0 otherwise and is also otherwise unnecessary to include on all promotion definitions.)

These three sub-definitions of Afflictions were necessary to lump together under the definition of an Affliction because new healing functions act on Afflictions in a common manner.

But here's some definitive differences between these three sub-categories:
Disease: Depending on settings, may spread, with a random chance to do so that is influenced by numerous factors, from a city to a unit, from a unit to a unit by being on the same plot, from a unit to a unit after combat is resolved, and from a unit to a city.

Diseases are defined by a building/promotion pair and the mechanisms and tags here are numerous and intricate. I'm a bit short on time tonight so I'm making more of a player overview tonight and will return to the subject of Diseases on a more intense level in another installment to come.

Diseases wear on units and we've seen some of the earliest defined Building disease forms already in play. Diseases can kill, can impede, can even offer counterintuitive benefits. Most importantly, this system allows diseases to be defined in a manner that reflects their real world dynamics among populations to a shockingly accurate degree.

Also... strategy note: when your units are infected, not only is it necessary to get them the hell out of any allied stack they may be traveling in to keep them from infecting the rest , but they can also be used to spread infection to your enemies!
(Here's an area that could really use some improved AI that I didn't want to include until I could work with Koshling and LS612 on this complex matter.)

It may even be necessary to define a fort somewhere as a quarantine and get your healers and similarly infected units out there for repair or at least isolation if they can't be fixed up.

Some diseases grow easier to overcome over time. Others grow harder to overcome over time. Some can never be overcome. Some are not communicable. Some only affect certain combat classes (like Human or Canine for example).

Anyhow, for an introduction to diseases I think this suffices. This is one area that is causing enormous processing delays until it gets much more streamlined in the coding which is going to be an ongoing project here on out. In the meantime, I've designed the Disease system to be fully compatible with the generic Disease method (or at least a simple approach of it.) so I'm also planning to patch the delays in processing by making it a bug option. Especially since there's no cause to delay this much without diseases fully defined yet.


Poisons: When a Unit with a poison use promotion attacks another unit and at least injures that unit, even if it then withdraws or dies, it passes along a Poison Affliction promotion (which is different than the Poison USE promotion that allowed the first to poison the other.)

There's no chance of failure here, aside from possibly failing to injure, but some unit combats could be immune to certain poisons. Otherwise, its an automatic effect applied on injury but won't take effect until after the combat is over. (A future plan could open up the ability to have a unit skill or promo that allows it to get a poisoning in effect on the enemy as soon as the injury takes place, thus affecting the rest of the battle immediately.)

Other mods have something similar, sure, but I wanted C2C to have tags that allow poisons to:
* Do damage over time
* Wear down the unit's abilities until the affliction is healed or overcome
* Paralyze the unit
and more...

In short, I wanted to be able to let us use real world poisons and be able to convert their debilitating effects into game terms.

In the future this may also get into self-poisoning (drugs) etc... but for now I thought I should leave that for some pre-discussion on the topic first.


Critical Injuries
: This is a pool of Affliction promotions that also has the bCritical tag set to 1. It is infinitely expandable at will and requires no real tricks aside from simply creating the injury affliction promotions themselves.

Every round in battle, the amount of damage that a unit suffers is divided by 10 and becomes the base % chance that the unit also incurs a Critical Injury. Combat is chaotic and the injury itself is defined by a random check through all possible Criticals so far designed.

The chance for criticals can be manipulated by the skills and abilities of the unit that may potentially inflict them as well but I'll get more into that when I get into the Unit ability tags.

Criticals could include:
[*] Broken Arm
[*] Fractured Hip
[*] Twisted Ankle
[*] Concussive Daze

and on and on the list could go. They may be limited by SubCombat class too so you can have, for example: a severed tail only applicable to animals with tails etc...

Criticals are a vast wildcard that can immediately throw off all of the best assessments of odds by an attacker as they immediately go into effect on the unit and can become the crippling effect that ends that unit's ability to effectively fight (or even retreat), spelling its doom. It's impossible to predict that this somewhat unlikely event will happen.

Generally, the chance per round caps out at something like 6% and if you've got that high a chance to take a critical, you're probably in over your head already! (Damage is largely defined by the odds comparison in the first place.) Of course, added skill and ability to inflict a critical on a unit is like a stealth factor that gets around odds assessments for a potentially nasty little surprise.



There are lots of tags that allow us to inflict a wide variety of pain on units and that define how hard or easy it is to overcome or resist receiving (largely in the case of poisons) a given affliction (a severed tail could be made simply impossible to overcome until regenerative technologies are developed for example.)

Each type of Affliction is meant to deepen the strategic decision making layer of the game, not to be a way to pick on units. Poisons are a deliberate method of inflicting Afflictions, Diseases must be managed as a normally unwanted problem but can be harnessed against your enemies, and Criticals deepen the combat mechanism itself with a wild card factor that cannot be assessed by odds.

Overcoming Afflictions: There's two ways to overcome Afflictions. You can be Cured by a healer who knows how to cure that specific type of affliction (missions with skill access granted by healer promo lines and upgrades adding basic knowledge that expands their set of curable afflictions.) Such a mission may only be performed by a healer once in a given round and on one unit with the selected affliction in the same stack.

You can allow your unit to try to shake it off. Much like healing, this requires some R&R for the unit so it can't happen if you've moved the unit. Units have varying abilities to throw off afflictions individually - more on this once I detail the Unit ability tags in full, and as noted different afflictions are more or less easy to overcome and some may get easier or harder over time.

This will all be quite easy to track and understand with mouseover informations added to both the unit and the Affliction promotion button. But suffice it to say... attempting to weather it out and heal an affliction is a random chance to overcome every round.

Also, the very proximity of a healer with a generic Aid ability will add to the probability of overcoming an Affliction as well. Note: Healers themselves could inadvertently fall prey to a powerful disease they're trying to treat! Always research the afflictions you're dealing with to form a plan on the best means to address it. (and again, some AI planning could help a lot with this on the Computer Player side of the fence. If done right, it will be another way the AI can really get an edge on the player.)


Step II continued...

Equipments

We've discussed the extra possible Combat Classes and its critical to understanding how Equipment promotions will work.

Equipment promotions guide a lot of the combat information on a unit. There's a lot of new tags for more specific adjustments to a unit's ability than simply additional strength % in combat. And these will help to differentiate varying weapons and armors significantly.

But equipments don't have to be just weapons and armors. They can also be clothing, special tools, musical instruments, and even, breaking the mold on what's expected to be an equipment - Unit Formation promotions.

The main things to consider with equipments are this:
  • Equipments are handed out by buildings in cities and really should be free on moving into the city, not just for units built there.
  • They will only be handed to units that qualify for them - thus one reason to be very defining on equip category subcombat classes.
  • Equipments are handled in LineIDs and Line Priorities. If a 'better' equipment along a line exists, units will automatically pick those up and override what they are already carrying. However, although I still have a little tweaking to do to allow for this, units should be able to choose to switch equipments when same lineID and same Line Priority access is encountered in the same city. As I currently intend it, it will take up the move of the unit to switch but it leaves you with some options to make some equipments equal yet different along the same path (defined by lineID). Thus, while you can't have, say, Poison Dart Frog Arrows I and Flaming Arrows I at the same time, your unit will naturally default to picking up one of them if both are in the city, but will give you the option to switch if your unit stays there. But if you pick up Poison Dart Frog Arrows II later on, you'll override either selection.
  • Many who are looking for equipment mods are looking to charge gold to have a unit pick up an equipment. I believe that the taxes earned from the free market sale of any given new equipment type developed in a city will naturally balance out to automatically wanting the best for your units and thus it should be unnecessary to charge for equipment upgrades, but rather make them automatic.
  • The ability to create a given equipment from a building will be defined largely by tech and bonus (resource) access, but the unit evaluates what's available. Thus, one building like an armory can have a lot of free promos it can hand out. A new tag to allow for an infinite amount of free promotions a building assigns is in place now. The unit itself filters what promos it can take so the building is always trying to give them all and allows the unit to guide the selection process by evaluating what techs and bonuses are available. Equipments can also obsolete.

    Therefore, an armory could hand out a whole line of armors but the unit will see what's really available.
  • Unlike normal promotions, Equipments (and Afflictions) completely replace any previous version of themselves on a given line. If I take Flaming Arrows III it will override all lesser arrow forms and remove them from the unit. They don't add up to a total like the Combat line. At Combat IV, you still see its worth only +10% combat value but It's really going to compound the full effect of every promotion along the line to get there (thus it's worth +40% in all reality.) These special promos won't... what you see is what you get.
  • You can't take an Equipment or Affliction the same way you earn a Level based Promotion... they are handed out only by the cities that have them to offer thanks to the buildings, bonuses, and techs that combine to define what can be offered, filtered out by what the unit will allow itself to have, largely as a result of its Combat Class definitions.

    Ok, some of that may have been getting redundant but I'm hoping saying it all in different ways will help if you're at all confused.
  • For the modders: If you can rationalize the cause for a unit's ability to be based on its equipment selections, then the equipment promotion should carry those definitions, not the unit itself, even though the unit definitions craft the definition of the equipment lines available with their subcombat definitions. The unit type itself largely indicates its Combat Class definitions, Basic Training variations, graphics and base power more than anything at this point. Even movement could be relegated to defining various mounts and armor penalty counters, though that's not necessarily what I envision, just a possible way to go about it. Additionally, no unit should be trainable without the basic same qualifications for the minimum quality assumed to go on a unit, making the unit automatically always pick up at least the lowest quality available base equipments when it is trained. There are a few new tags that define the unit's abilities (Armor, Puncture, Dodge, Precision and more) that should really not be defined on the unit at all except in rare cases, but defined through the Equipments they are using.

    This is an area where AI evaluations could be improved to adjust to this method of unit values inherited from the locally available equips.


I think that covers equipments fairly well... not sure if I'm leaving something out.


Footnote: if someone with some graphics skills wants to help us get REALLY tricksy, there is a tutorial on how to get promotions to change the specific graphics on a unit in the main Creation and Customization thread. I'm going to be perpetually too busy to adapt that in here but it would really be cool to see if some new modder wants to make that their specialty here as this Equipment system would work so nicely with that.

OK, so later I'll come back and give some really in depth notes for the mod team on the Advanced Disease system so you can fully understand all the toggles and switches to make that machine work just how you want it to and take requests on tweaks to make it do things you may find missing.

Also, to come soon:
Part III: The New Behaviors of Combat
 
Very interesting.
I think we should add an AcquireCondition and an AfflictCondition to promotions as boolean expressions. The AcquireCondition is evaluated on the unit that receives the affliction and the AfflictCondition is evaluated on the unit that is the source of the affliction.
So for instance some criticals could only be applied under specific circumstances or to specific units.
 
@Thunderbrd

So for Diseases lets say we use the Common Cold for example. Right now it is a property driven building that if the threshold of Disease property is over 1 then the city wild build Disease (Common Cold) building.

Right now we have the ability to give promotions if a unit enters the city from buildings. Thus we could make a "Common Cold" promotion that is given when a unit enters the city where Disease (Common Cold) building is present.

Still following me? Now on the "Host" it follows your combat system where it can be spread unit to unit. Once on the unit this "promotion" can have its effects. Likewise we can "cure" disease through counter promotions from Medic units or stop the source of the problem by reducing the disease level in the city or removing the triggers for the disease in the city. Such as Lemons cures Scurvy.

In addition techs can help counter the building or even obsolete the building. Thus removing the source of the disease. Likewise you could also obsolete the promotion. Such as a Small Pox Vaccine could counter the promotion and without the source there will not be anymore Small Pox and it will eventually be eradicated.

Sound Good?
 
@hydro

Sound very Good but not for common cold and other not dangerous diseases.
We must separate disease from plague

It will be silly when my entire unit will have common cold negative promotion because city have that disease since almost every city have it.

But it will be very interesting that plagues (very dangureous diseases) like black death or others that kills population will demage or give negative promos to units
 
@hydro

Only because i am affraid that it will be too common among units :)

@thunderbird

Everything sounds good but Critical Injuries like broken leg etc. We must remember that one unit dont represent one soldier but the entire company (ex 1000 soldiers) So Critical Injuries should be

- bite (from dogs)
- cuts (from swords)
- rolled wounds (from huge units - like elephant can roll your arm, leg etc)
- fracture (from huge units also)
- lacerations (from spiked clubs, mace)
- rumpus wounds (from axes)
- gunshot wounds or Ballistic trauma (from guns, explosives, modern armors)
- puncture wound (from archery units and pikemans )
- burns (from flamethrowers, napal strikes)
- plasma burns (from plasmathrowers, plasma tanks)
- chemical burns (chemical weapons)
- laser wounds (laser weapons)
- internal wound (from biological weapons and nukes)
- poisoned wound (from poisons)

- Concussive Daze (can stay)

Good armor should reduce probability of critical injuries
Critical Injuries should depend what type of weapon enemy use. EX maceman will cause lacerations, swordsman cuts, musketman gunshot wounds.
Names of critical injuries should be more general (100 or 1000 pepole have diffrent wounds not everybody have broken log for ex).

And now give me +1 ;)
 
Diseases wear on units and we've seen some of the earliest defined Building disease forms already in play. Diseases can kill, can impede, can even offer counterintuitive benefits. Most importantly, this system allows diseases to be defined in a manner that reflects their real world dynamics among populations to a shockingly accurate degree.
Do you plan any link for water and air pollution in cities to unit diseases? (actually I guess it's logically just the same as for city disease property -> unit disease - i.e. - via property-triggered buildings)?

(Here's an area that could really use some improved AI that I didn't want to include until I could work with Koshling and LS612 on this complex matter.)
ls612 was looking for some AI work to do... ;)

Every round in battle, the amount of damage that a unit suffers is divided by 10 and becomes the base % chance that the unit also incurs a Critical Injury. Combat is chaotic and the injury itself is defined by a random check through all possible Criticals so far designed.
Using the absolute amount of damage in a round won't scale. A future era super tank with 200 hit points will often be taking 10s of HP damage per round, but that shouldn't mean it has a higher chance of taking a crit than a strength 5 archer taking 1 point of damage. Shouldn't this be based on the percentage of the units total max HP it takes in the round instead??
Each type of Affliction is meant to deepen the strategic decision making layer of the game, not to be a way to pick on units. Poisons are a deliberate method of inflicting Afflictions, Diseases must be managed as a normally unwanted problem but can be harnessed against your enemies, and Criticals deepen the combat mechanism itself with a wild card factor that cannot be assessed by odds.
I buy this for diseases and poisons. I'm not at all sure about crits. Introducing what amounts to purely random element does not (IMO) deepen strategic gameplay - it just randomizes results.
 
@Thunderbrd

So for Diseases lets say we use the Common Cold for example. Right now it is a property driven building that if the threshold of Disease property is over 1 then the city wild build Disease (Common Cold) building.

Right now we have the ability to give promotions if a unit enters the city from buildings. Thus we could make a "Common Cold" promotion that is given when a unit enters the city where Disease (Common Cold) building is present.

Still following me? Now on the "Host" it follows your combat system where it can be spread unit to unit. Once on the unit this "promotion" can have its effects. Likewise we can "cure" disease through counter promotions from Medic units or stop the source of the problem by reducing the disease level in the city or removing the triggers for the disease in the city. Such as Lemons cures Scurvy.

In addition techs can help counter the building or even obsolete the building. Thus removing the source of the disease. Likewise you could also obsolete the promotion. Such as a Small Pox Vaccine could counter the promotion and without the source there will not be anymore Small Pox and it will eventually be eradicated.

Sound Good?

The problem here is how you infect the city from the units. Because there are two different underlying mechanism here (disease property, and the combatmod disease 'promotions') it really only works in one direction (city->unit as per what you say above). I can't see any way for the unit to give the disease to the city since the disease 'building' is triggered (and requires) a certain level of the disease property (and setting the property to that level would also trigger all lesser diseases).

I suspect the 'closest' model is to have the diseased unit act as a disease property source (so it just generally makes the city more diseased rather than specifically for the disease the unit actually has).

@TB - did you have any better ideas in this regard?
 
How long are you expecting these 'afflections' to last, when each turn is multiple years long. It's kinda like the storms that hover over tiles for a 1,000 years. Which I also have a gripe against (to the point I'm probably going to turn them off in my next game).

As soldiers age and die they are presumably replaced (although attrition on experience isn't accounted for)... I don't think it would be fair to have semi-permanent afflictions that required particular buildings or healing units or some such. Particularly in regards to poison; poison would do its damage and that would be the end of it. If soldiers survived the poison but loss the use of limbs, or were blinded or otherwise permanently affected it would be no different than physical maiming. Which of course heals up naturally by getting replacement soldiers via the healing commands.

The same, though somewhat to a lesser degree, applies to diseases. You don't intern the whole division/corp (unit); you intern the sick ones. The rest of the unit (albiet weakened) continues on. Though in bad conditions (eg: isolated, out of supply, jungle combat) could overwhelm the situation. Once the conditions are removed (also note modern troops are innoculated against many diseases now) the unit's health would improve by 'healing' (sick troops recover or are replaced).

As a player I know I would be very, very ticked off at a unit dieing some 50-100 years after the last battle he fought because he couldn't make it to a healer unit or back to a city or some such. Heck I'd be ticked off at a unit that just plain didn't recover on its own after a short period of time. I think I could live with an affect that reduced the unit's healing for a brief number of turns and then went away on its own.
 
@taxman

Disease penalty from stay at the jungle tile sounds good to me. Should be removed when unit leave the jungle tile. Terrains promotion should give protection for that kind of disease.
 
Very interesting.
I think we should add an AcquireCondition and an AfflictCondition to promotions as boolean expressions. The AcquireCondition is evaluated on the unit that receives the affliction and the AfflictCondition is evaluated on the unit that is the source of the affliction.
So for instance some criticals could only be applied under specific circumstances or to specific units.
To some extent this does exist as you can have a great many types of filters on a Critical, just like any other promotion. However, the idea I take from here is to add the same kind of consideration to the unit giving the critical. That's a good thing to work in I think.

@Thunderbrd

So for Diseases lets say we use the Common Cold for example. Right now it is a property driven building that if the threshold of Disease property is over 1 then the city wild build Disease (Common Cold) building.
I have an adjustment to make to get the system to be fully compatible without the Advanced Disease structure. But once its made, it would mean that if the option is off, the outbreak of a disease would work exactly like that, yes. But with the option on, a city has a 50% base chance of having an outbreak when the city has a Disease Property value of the minimum threshold value (in this case 1) and that % chance is adjusted by +1% per added Disease Property level that exists and -1% per Disease Property level beneath the threshold. This is then further adjusted by technology access, bonus access, and tolerance the city has built up from previously having had the disease (and probably more modifiers I'm not bringing to mind off the top of my head - I'll go over all the tags with you at the end of this segment.) Units present with the comparable disease enhance the likelihood of outbreak Healers present decrease the chances of an outbreak in the same way as they enhance the cities and units chances to overcome a disease. In otherwords, the Disease Property becomes a basic Disease condition setting while the likelihood of any given disease is far more specific to the disease itself and a multitude of further conditions and considerations so its not so static as 'once you're at Disease Property Level 1 you get this and when you go below it you lose it'. It'd be entirely possible to have the Plague outbreak (which would normally require a higher Disease Property Level) while not having a Cold Outbreak. And it will be rational as to why.

Right now we have the ability to give promotions if a unit enters the city from buildings. Thus we could make a "Common Cold" promotion that is given when a unit enters the city where Disease (Common Cold) building is present.
Under this method, all units in the city have a cold if the city has a cold. I wanted something a lot more dynamic. Under my option, you'd have simply an enhanced chance for your units in that city to contract a cold thanks to the city undergoing an outbreak of it.

Still following me? Now on the "Host" it follows your combat system where it can be spread unit to unit. Once on the unit this "promotion" can have its effects. Likewise we can "cure" disease through counter promotions from Medic units or stop the source of the problem by reducing the disease level in the city or removing the triggers for the disease in the city. Such as Lemons cures Scurvy.

In addition techs can help counter the building or even obsolete the building. Thus removing the source of the disease. Likewise you could also obsolete the promotion. Such as a Small Pox Vaccine could counter the promotion and without the source there will not be anymore Small Pox and it will eventually be eradicated.

Sound Good?
Those last considerations have a number of tags associated with them so we can do our research on a disease and implement all considerations on how humanity has gradually learned to address any given one. There'd be some extra work to make those considerations somehow work into affecting the system without the Advanced Disease option though.

@hydro

Only because i am affraid that it will be too common among units :)
It might be common but it'd be quickly overcome as well. Diseases can be made hard to overcome or very easy to overcome. And having overcome a disease like a cold will leave the unit with a resistance to catching it again.

Everything sounds good but Critical Injuries like broken leg etc. We must remember that one unit dont represent one soldier but the entire company (ex 1000 soldiers) So Critical Injuries should be

- bite (from dogs)
- cuts (from swords)
- rolled wounds (from huge units - like elephant can roll your arm, leg etc)
- fracture (from huge units also)
- lacerations (from spiked clubs, mace)
- rumpus wounds (from axes)
- gunshot wounds or Ballistic trauma (from guns, explosives, modern armors)
- puncture wound (from archery units and pikemans )
- burns (from flamethrowers, napal strikes)
- plasma burns (from plasmathrowers, plasma tanks)
- chemical burns (chemical weapons)
- laser wounds (laser weapons)
- internal wound (from biological weapons and nukes)
- poisoned wound (from poisons)

- Concussive Daze (can stay)
I'll go with the mass consensus on this as I'm not attached to either outlook. But some units represent multiple people, perhaps a great many, while others represent a single individual. Perhaps a Combat Class definition could define the difference, allowing us to define both kinds of Criticals and guide which ones affect which.

Good armor should reduce probability of critical injuries
It does by default of reducing the damage a unit is able to take. Heavier armor is a great way to minimize suffering Critical Hits.

Critical Injuries should depend what type of weapon enemy use. EX maceman will cause lacerations, swordsman cuts, musketman gunshot wounds.
Not yet implemented but I can do an Only From CombatClass tag that will help guide these in this manner, as noted above in my reply to AIAndy.

Names of critical injuries should be more general (100 or 1000 pepole have diffrent wounds not everybody have broken log for ex).
The whole game is largely approximated but I did just suggest a solution above that could account for that comment.


Do you plan any link for water and air pollution in cities to unit diseases? (actually I guess it's logically just the same as for city disease property -> unit disease - i.e. - via property-triggered buildings)?
I have no problem letting these kinds of things operate under more fundamental static property principles. The promos would still be Afflictions and should have varying healing considerations.

Using the absolute amount of damage in a round won't scale. A future era super tank with 200 hit points will often be taking 10s of HP damage per round, but that shouldn't mean it has a higher chance of taking a crit than a strength 5 archer taking 1 point of damage. Shouldn't this be based on the percentage of the units total max HP it takes in the round instead??[/quote
You must be saying this without realizing that the system's HP method is a % already. If you see, in the Combat Log, an amount of damage being assigned to a unit, the amount of damage is a % of the units overall maximum health total. In other words, all units have 100HP at max. This does not vary.

I buy this for diseases and poisons. I'm not at all sure about crits. Introducing what amounts to purely random element does not (IMO) deepen strategic gameplay - it just randomizes results.
Fair enough. I'd just ask you to withhold judgement on that until you see it in play and how it affects things and I'll withhold judgement on this comment until the same. I'm curious to see how much of an impact it has too. But there's a lot of neat ways this manipulates things considering how many new ways battles can end non-lethaly (without the death of a unit involved.) More on that to come of course.

The problem here is how you infect the city from the units. Because there are two different underlying mechanism here (disease property, and the combatmod disease 'promotions') it really only works in one direction (city->unit as per what you say above). I can't see any way for the unit to give the disease to the city since the disease 'building' is triggered (and requires) a certain level of the disease property (and setting the property to that level would also trigger all lesser diseases).

I suspect the 'closest' model is to have the diseased unit act as a disease property source (so it just generally makes the city more diseased rather than specifically for the disease the unit actually has).

@TB - did you have any better ideas in this regard?
I may not have fully explained myself yet. Once I get into the full mathematical mechanism of the Advanced Disease structure, it should become clear how dynamic and fully considerate it is of so many rational and intricate variables.

How long are you expecting these 'afflections' to last, when each turn is multiple years long. It's kinda like the storms that hover over tiles for a 1,000 years. Which I also have a gripe against (to the point I'm probably going to turn them off in my next game).

As soldiers age and die they are presumably replaced (although attrition on experience isn't accounted for)... I don't think it would be fair to have semi-permanent afflictions that required particular buildings or healing units or some such. Particularly in regards to poison; poison would do its damage and that would be the end of it. If soldiers survived the poison but loss the use of limbs, or were blinded or otherwise permanently affected it would be no different than physical maiming. Which of course heals up naturally by getting replacement soldiers via the healing commands.

The same, though somewhat to a lesser degree, applies to diseases. You don't intern the whole division/corp (unit); you intern the sick ones. The rest of the unit (albiet weakened) continues on. Though in bad conditions (eg: isolated, out of supply, jungle combat) could overwhelm the situation. Once the conditions are removed (also note modern troops are innoculated against many diseases now) the unit's health would improve by 'healing' (sick troops recover or are replaced).

As a player I know I would be very, very ticked off at a unit dieing some 50-100 years after the last battle he fought because he couldn't make it to a healer unit or back to a city or some such. Heck I'd be ticked off at a unit that just plain didn't recover on its own after a short period of time. I think I could live with an affect that reduced the unit's healing for a brief number of turns and then went away on its own.
This is one of those issues in Civ no matter how you cut it. On one hand, the board is traveling through time at such a speed that one soldier simply would never have a lifespan great enough to make a trip from one city to another, or even from one plot to another, depending on the era, while on the other, its assuming this is an event covering a smaller amount of time within the era. There's so much necessary approximation here that we simply must look past that stuff to even rationalize the first part of how unit interactions go on even the most basic elements of the game interplay. That can't be avoided. I'd say more on this but I'm running late for work ;)
 
How long are you expecting these 'afflections' to last, when each turn is multiple years long. It's kinda like the storms that hover over tiles for a 1,000 years. Which I also have a gripe against (to the point I'm probably going to turn them off in my next game).

As soldiers age and die they are presumably replaced (although attrition on experience isn't accounted for)... I don't think it would be fair to have semi-permanent afflictions that required particular buildings or healing units or some such. Particularly in regards to poison; poison would do its damage and that would be the end of it. If soldiers survived the poison but loss the use of limbs, or were blinded or otherwise permanently affected it would be no different than physical maiming. Which of course heals up naturally by getting replacement soldiers via the healing commands.

The same, though somewhat to a lesser degree, applies to diseases. You don't intern the whole division/corp (unit); you intern the sick ones. The rest of the unit (albiet weakened) continues on. Though in bad conditions (eg: isolated, out of supply, jungle combat) could overwhelm the situation. Once the conditions are removed (also note modern troops are innoculated against many diseases now) the unit's health would improve by 'healing' (sick troops recover or are replaced).

As a player I know I would be very, very ticked off at a unit dieing some 50-100 years after the last battle he fought because he couldn't make it to a healer unit or back to a city or some such. Heck I'd be ticked off at a unit that just plain didn't recover on its own after a short period of time. I think I could live with an affect that reduced the unit's healing for a brief number of turns and then went away on its own.

The game (and also AoE, SC and others) is a bit silly in that is uses two very different timescales at the same time. Units on one scale, and everything else (cities, research, trade, ...) on the other. You have two options: either try to force both timescales to be the same, which will result in strange things like units exploring for tens of thousands of years or 1000 year storms, OR recognize the need, meta-game-wise, to have these two different timescales, and think that units really do represent (mostly) the same individuals even if the other research-based timescale would dictate their demise a long long time ago. That is, the individuals I get at the start of the game will still be (mostly) the same ones that (hopefully) returns 200 turns later from exploring, no matter how many in-game years that would take. In this abstraction, it is but a small step to go into "role-play"-mode and see the units not as companies of 1000 individuals, but more like individuals, that can get an arm chopped of.

There really is no way to reconcile these timescales. I mean, units are a huge part of the game, but they also bring huge inconsistency issues. For example, to train a new warrior unit might take 10 turns, if the city is working cottage improvements, but only 5 turns if working lumber mills. What do wood have to do with units training? In fact, units training in a barracks should not really care one way or the other, that is, the training time should not depend on more timber being produced or more commerce being made; it should be a fixed number of in-game years, say 1 year to train a swordsman. However, at present, the ability of cities to produce anything, including units, is dependent only on its ability to generate hammers (unless you use some civic that also makes surplus food turn into hammers for producing units). Another issue is that, if, as you say, a unit consists of 1000 individuals, why can I not split it into 2 units containing 500 soldiers, but having half strength? It would sure help exploring. Why not ten units at 1/10 strength? Why not 1000 units of 1 individual at 1/1000 strength of the original unit? Boy, it would take some micro, but the map will be explored, alright :) A third issue is replacement individuals to be added to units maybe ten turns away from any borders. Will they run all alone all that way, in one turn, avoiding all threats, just to replenish the unit? What about the way information spreads? How do the rest of the empire know about what an exploring unit has found before it returns to the empires borders? If you say that scouts/messengers are assumed to zip between units and cities/culture borders, why then cannot these handy, ultra fast guys help me just explore the map instead?

I could go on, but rather than to delve deeper into these issues, I would recommend you, and everyone else playing this game, to just ignore this, and see units as single individuals that can live forever and which have instant telepathic communications abilities with the rest of the empire, and embrace the goodness this thread brings: a whole new combat system! Wooo! I for one rejoiced when I read about critical hits! I even played with the idea of removing the abstract hit points system altogether, and just have injuries instead. So instead of taking 10% damage to your Strength after a fight, you instead get let's say a Twisted Ankle that makes the unit a bit slower and reduces it's chance at hitting the enemy, unless the unit spends 3 idle turns. This would open up totally new layers of complexity. No longer can you march a unit through combat after combat and building up xp. In this system, some wounds are permanent, and you will have to consider resigning the unit after a while, regardless of xp gained. A resigned soldier could possibly be "spent" to teach another unit some "tools of the trade", just like Great Generals do at present.

In short, in the words of Jim Carrey: There's no end to the possibilities!
 
I recognize that there needs to be a level of suspension of belief to deal with the time scales. However, it also seems that a certain level of abstraction is good... and I think some of what is being discussed here is a little too over the top for me. I don't see units as single individuals (even leaders & generals have staffs). I just can't see a unit of archers incapicitated because of a hangnail.
 
@Thunderbrd

Thanks for the explanation. Having a chance of infection and building up immunities are great. Much more than I would have thought possible. Seems like both your system and the existing property system will work together well. Great job figuring this all out! :goodjob:

@TowerWizard

You have to realize that the game is not literal but an abstraction. For distance the size of units compared to map size and distance. We have to think of Civ4 more like a board game than an actual simulation. Where some aspects are stylized and simplified since the real thing would be much too hard to represent.
 
@Hydro

I guess I should have been more clear, but that was the whole point of my ramblings. I tried to show the wierd result of thinking too literally about the game, and that you thus MUST see it as an abstraction, and thus that it is but a small step to go to see units as individuals, instead of being groups. And if you accept them as being individuals, then we can apply critical hits without feeling the way Taxman66 does about this, namely that critical hits should not be an issue since units are groups. Hope that everyone now understands my point.
 
ls612 was looking for some AI work to do... ;)

Cool. I'll see what I can do, once the Combat mod is a tad more stable, I still have not updated because of the increased memory usage.

I suspect that it'll have to wait until you add your Stack Manager AI improvement, as otherwise I suspect I'd have to mutilate the stack, which may not be the best option in the long term (I assume diseases are not permanent).
 
@TowerWizard: I couldn't have said it all better myself actually! If you're excited about the potential here, I'm sure we could use some xml modding help to flesh out these critical hits and other details.

@Hydro: Thanks! I'm glad you see the intricacy that went into considering it all but it does cause a lot of processing so we will not be able to avoid having to consider both the 'simple' form as well as the 'advanced' form of disease systems when designing them. Even well streamlined I think slower computers won't be able to handle it enough to make it add fun rather than detract fun from excessive delays. But for guys like us, its pretty much exactly what we're looking for I think and would be worth a slight slowdown in play.

@ls612: Yeah, stability and streamlining are the most immediate tasks here. However, I took note of the kind of system you're running the game on a while back and I think its pretty similar to mine and rather up-to date with a turbo single thread processor. I think you'd see very little slowdown if not running a debug dll. Not enough to bother too greatly. But yeah, it shouldn't be impacting us hardly at all if its done right. Koshling and AIAndy are helping me with this extensively.

As for whether diseases are permanent or not, some could be if programmed to be. If well researched in its design, any given disease shouldn't behave any different than what you'd expect of the real world dynamics of that sort of affliction. Same with poisons and crits (though there IS the aforenoted abstraction issue.)

Oh... I do think I'll be making Crits a bug option for those who feel the abstraction is too much. I don't want to detract from ANYONE's game by ignoring their enjoyment priorities.


By the way... next update here may be early tomorrow. Got some unexpected time off and I've been exhausting myself this week with this and may take the night to rest and relax and hit it hard tomorrow.
 
Oh... I do think I'll be making Crits a bug option for those who feel the abstraction is too much. I don't want to detract from ANYONE's game by ignoring their enjoyment priorities.
Mind that BUG options are not automatically synced so you need to add some syncing code for the option to work properly in MP.
 
Mind that BUG options are not automatically synced so you need to add some syncing code for the option to work properly in MP.

I was going to ask you about that... after fully researching the HOW on Bug Options.
 
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