Delayed bronze working #2: Deity isolated

Brennus.Quigley · Oct 4, 2012

The controversial delayed Bronze Working strategy is back. About a month and a half ago, I posted a strategy article entitled THE BENEFITS OF AVOIDING BRONZE WORKING that was commended by some, but dismissed and attacked by many. A few weeks after that I posted a save that demonstrated the delayed Bronze Working Liberalism bulb as viable on Immortal difficulty (and others demonstrated how early slavery was also viable on the same map). Now I am posting an isolated Deity start where I was able to employ the delayed Bronze Working Liberalism bulb en route to a Cultural victory. I look forward to seeing what better players (and not better players) can do with the same map. You are Qin Shi Huang. Huts and events on! (The AIs are likely to get more benefits from the huts than you; if you run slavery you have to take on the risk of slave revolts, keep some money in the treasury to take advantage of events... If you hate huts and events so much, then feel free to not play this map.) BTS 3.19. No Mod.

About my play through:

Spoiler :

I settled in place. Got 70-something gold from the two huts on the continent. By not going worker first, and instead working a spices tile, and then two spices tiles once Beijing grew, I was able to found Buddhism. Went straight for the Oracle and was successful. Took Aesthetics. Settled Shanghai up near the marble. Settled the Great Prophet from the Oracle up in Shanghai for extra production there. Teched Monotheism for Organized Religion. Went for the Parthenon in Shanghai and was successful. Went for the Great Library in Beijing and was beaten to it by 4 turns (probably because I was working some cottages rather than maximizing hammers). Settled Guangzhou as a specialist city. Saw a Great Artist being born elsewhere and realized that I would not be the first to Music. Built the National Epic in Guangzhou and ran scientists. Caravels started arriving. Did not open borders or trade with any of them. Noticed that Hannibal was the strongest, that he was annoyed with me, and that he had Astronomy, so I gifted him Drama for the diplomatic bonuses. Double-bulbed Education. Bulbed Liberalism without Bronze Working or Fishing in 1100 AD:

Took Nationalism, even though everyone else already had it. Traded Education and Liberalism to Hannibal and Saladin for some back techs (they were friends). The diplomatic strategy was all about staying in Hannibal and Saladin's good graces as they appeared strong. Was able to get Gunpowder in one of the trades. Flipped the slider to 100% culture. Declared war on Sitting Bull when Hannibal asked. Had to deal with his Destroyers, but no invasion (I never even made it to Optics). Got surprise attacked by Gilgamesh, but was able to fight off his cavalry, grenadiers, and anti-tanks with the Musketeers and then pay for peace. Stayed in Pacifism for the extra Great Artists. Produced a total of 1 Great Prophet, 3 Great Scientists, and 10 Great Artists. Never built an academy. Voted for Hannibal for all UN elections, including a diplomatic victory as I was confident he didn't have the necessary votes. Went into Universal Suffrage and Free Religion as a result of UN votes. Never used Slavery (only Caste System). No major events (+1 gold in the Shanghai walls, +1 science in the Beijing library, thieves pestering the wheat farmer, etc...). 1922 cultural victory:

Revent · Oct 4, 2012

Spoiler :

That's a very specific game you've got set up. It'll be difficult to get MANY people to play this :lol:

Deity isolated is as hard as you can get (except for Deity with AW and/or OCC).

However, there are some benefits of avoiding BW I guess in this one, but I think perhaps even the best players here may struggle for a non culture win on this map so it's a very very specific map.

Brennus.Quigley · Oct 4, 2012

Revent said:
Spoiler :

That's a very late cultural victory for deity. Normally the AI win culture way before that. The Lib date is also VERY late. The AI normally get Lib way before that on deity.

That's a very specific game you've got set up. It'll be difficult to get MANY people to play this Deity isolated is as hard as you can get (except for Deity with AW and/or OCC).

However, there are some benefits of avoiding BW I guess in this one, but I think perhaps even the best players here may struggle for a non culture win on this map so it's a very very specific map.

Well, when I post an Immortal non-isolated start, people complain that it's too easy, and that I need to "be a man" and try Deity. OK, here's an isolated Deity start

Spoiler :

Let's see what the better players can do with it. I rolled this map on my second roll (trying for an isolated start with high sea levels). Isolated, lake start, one food resource: my hunch is that most would regenerate the map, but it is clearly winnable, even by an unskilled player such as myself.

EDIT: And again, this is not a Lib race. The goal is to win. An earlier Lib is nothing if you don't pull out a win.

The Oz-Man · Oct 4, 2012

Part of the challenge of winning at Deity--at least as far as I've read--isn't so much winning yourself as it is keeping the other AIs from winning. I'm curious about how you did that, particularly in pulling off a very, very late cultural win (without corps or a bunch of religions) and Lib at a time when the AI can sometimes tech it at Monarch, never mind Deity.

EDIT: Also, why are you farming tiles outside of anybody's BFC? :crazyeye:

Brennus.Quigley · Oct 4, 2012

The Oz-Man said:
Part of the challenge of winning at Deity--at least as far as I've read--isn't so much winning yourself as it is keeping the other AIs from winning. I'm curious about how you did that, particularly in pulling off a very, very late cultural win (without corps or a bunch of religions)

Didn't do anything to stop anyone. Just made the right friends and focused on my own goal.

The Oz-Man said:
and Lib at a time when the AI can sometimes tech it at Monarch, never mind Deity.

Didn't trade with the AIs at all (until after Lib), so I didn't guide them up there like most people do. Double-bulbed Education and bulbed Lib by avoiding Bronze Working and Fishing. Wouldn't have gotten Lib without that approach. Again, I failed getting the Great Library by 4 turns, so this could have even been a stronger victory.

The Oz-Man said:
EDIT: Also, why are you farming tiles outside of anybody's BFC?

My 2 workers (that's all) had nothing to do. Thought chaining water further north was at least something they could do in case I wanted to continue the chain up further for Nanjing. Never did though. Still crazy eyes?

VoiceOfUnreason · Oct 4, 2012

Brennus.Quigley said:
EDIT: And again, this is not a Lib race. The goal is to win. An earlier Lib is nothing if you don't pull out a win.

True - however, Liberalism is a decent proxy for AI tech rate. If the AI is lagging behind a normal tech pace and you aren't influencing that, then the suggestion that "you got lucky" doesn't seem too far fetched.

On the other hand, if the choices you are making in the game are slowing the AI's tech pace, then perhaps you've got something real. I'm thinking here primarily of Obsolete's Wonderwerks capitals, which had the side effect of cutting off an apparently significant share of the AI's GPP income, with favorable consequences.

Heathcliff · Oct 4, 2012

Nice one Quigley!

I doubt this map is winnable if you make the misstake to tech bronze working.

Brennus.Quigley · Oct 4, 2012

VoiceOfUnreason said:
True - however, Liberalism is a decent proxy for AI tech rate. If the AI is lagging behind a normal tech pace and you aren't influencing that, then the suggestion that "you got lucky" doesn't seem too far fetched.

The AIs were doing fine. I don't think they were lagging at all. The key, I believe, is that I didn't trade any of them Writing, Mathematics, Code of Laws, Civil Service, Paper, Education, Philosophy, etc... until after I had finished Liberalism myself. In other words, I didn't "guide them" up the tech tree towards it. They made other tech decisions as the AI usually will do if you don't overly influence them towards Education and Liberalism. Perhaps a random AI will shoot Liberalism on its own, but I find that to be rare.

I'm fully prepared for others to do better on this map, even with Slavery, since there are better players out there. But I am hoping to see games and results, not be dismissed with "you got lucky." (No disrespect taken or intended).

Heathcliff said:
Nice one Quigley!

I doubt this map is winnable if you make the misstake to tech bronze working.

Thanks, Heathcliff. I bet there are players out there that can win it with early Bronze Working. I just want to see it. I certainly can't win it that way.

JSS · Oct 4, 2012

What a troll this guy is...

Brennus.Quigley · Oct 4, 2012

JSS said:
What a troll this guy is...

Would, once again, love to see the results of your play through.

vranasm · Oct 4, 2012

could you post the 1922 save? I want to look at wonder dates in your game.

Brennus.Quigley · Oct 4, 2012

vranasm said:
could you post the 1922 save? I want to look at wonder dates in your game.

Here's the 1921 save. You can hit return and watch the replay even.

Looking at it, I also slightly misstated something. I traded away Education immediately before bulbing Liberalism. Got Philosophy and Gunpowder in those Education trades. If you're wondering how I got Military Tradition later, I was gifted it. Never used it.

ecuwins · Oct 4, 2012

I would be too tempted to go Great Abusehouse in this game.

capnvonbaron · Oct 4, 2012

This still sounds like more of a "gambit" than a "strategy". It requires a very certain set of circumstances and even then has a poor probability of winning. It's kinda like the "Lady Catherine Domination uber-REX" that I posted many moons ago. Viable, yes. Fun to try for a few times, also yes. A 100% (or even 50%) winning strategy? No way.

Here, I'm willing to bet if you weren't isolated, you would've been steamrolled a long time before winning. Also, given a bigger map, I'm somewhat doubtful you'd have gotten Lib. I mean, I applaud your dedication to it, as well as the knowledge of the game to work out the bulb-path on the way to Lib, but I don't think we're going to see many HoF entries featuring bronzeworking-less games...

UnforcedError · Oct 4, 2012

Going for Buddhism with China on Deity? Building the Oracle in the cap without having a second city? You didn't know right at t0 that you were isolated, Brennus, did you?

EDIT: I really recommend reading some of the various great culture guides found on this forum. Also, I think this map screams for the GLH and oracling MC whatever victory type you pursue. They would have given you a much earlier Lib than 1100 AD Nationalism, which is... terribly lucky on Deity.

I do plan to play some games on this forum trying out your strategy. However, the two maps you posted so far simply wanted BW for one reason or the other. To me a no early BW strategy would definitely require a high hammer start plus only enough food to work it, otherwise you're wasting hammers by not whipping.

Brennus.Quigley · Oct 4, 2012

ecuwins said:
I would be too tempted to go Great Abusehouse in this game.

I would enjoy seeing a Great Lighthouse play here. I thought about it, but decided that if I was going cultural I might never reach Astronomy in order to make it useful. There is also not much seafood around, so the Fishing-Sailing path isn't really the biggest of priorities. With 4 spice tiles on the island, however, Calendar is nice here. I could also think of good uses for that Great Merchant.

capnvonbaron said:
This still sounds like more of a "gambit" than a "strategy".

Gambits are forms of strategy. From the dictionary:

"an opening in which a player makes a sacrifice...for the sake of some compensating advantage."

I am certainly sacrificing Bronze Working for the advantage of more efficiently bulbing Liberalism. So this is most certainly a gambit of sorts. But I also believe that this "gambit" is "good strategy" on this map (and others). Not sure what distinction you're trying to make here.

capnvonbaron said:
Here, I'm willing to bet if you weren't isolated, you would've been steamrolled a long time before winning.

If I hadn't been isolated, I would have reevaluated the situation and played it differently. That would have been a different map. This map is isolated, and it is your job to lead your civilization to a victory, which I did. What is the problem? If you play Deity/Fractal, you will get isolated starts. They are meant to be played and won, not ignored and regenerated.

capnvonbaron said:
I applaud your dedication to it, as well as the knowledge of the game to work out the bulb-path on the way to Lib,

Thanks.

capnvonbaron said:
but I don't think we're going to see many HoF entries featuring bronzeworking-less games...

When it was an immortal save, people said it's not Deity. Now that it's Deity, people say it's not Hall of Fame. To be clear, I have no interest in a Hall of Fame score. I have always said that my interest is my "percentage of wins" dealing with Fractal/random terrain/random sea level maps. To achieve my goal, I have to learn how to adapt to less than ideal (i.e. not Hall of Fame-type) maps.

Brennus.Quigley · Oct 4, 2012

UnforcedError said:
Going for Buddhism with China on Deity? Building the Oracle in the cap without having a second city? You didn't know right at t0 that you were isolated, Brennus, did you?

I did. This was my second play through on this map. The first one ended via a Hannibal space victory much later than 1922. I agree it would be more impressive if I had won my first play through. But winning your second run through on an isolated Deity map isn't the worst thing (especially when you are new to Deity). And besides, everyone else knows it's isolated from t0 as well.

By the way, I didn't need Buddhism and was a little surprised it was still there. Would have probably have taken Code of Laws for Confucianism with the Oracle otherwise. Don't consider that to be essential for the strategy. You could probably also open up with The Wheel-Pottery, quickly realize that it's isolated, and adjust a non-Oracle/delayed Bronze Working strategy from there.

Look forward to seeing your play through.

soundjata · Oct 4, 2012

Reminds me of the "immortal minimalism"

Nice victory Brennus, truly inspirating.

shadojack · Oct 4, 2012

Congratulations on your Diety victory. I won't even attempt Diety as I am content to work through CIV4 at Emperor. Although I don't wait to bulb Lib with your BW-less strategy, I do now regular skip BW to go for Alphabet (when the map dictates it) and trade for BW later. I don't think I ever delayed BW to even Alphabet before, silly, but true.

The Oz-Man · Oct 4, 2012

Brennus.Quigley said:
The key, I believe, is that I didn't trade any of them Writing, Mathematics, Code of Laws, Civil Service, Paper, Education, Philosophy, etc... until after I had finished Liberalism myself.

Okay, I have to ask.

In what way on an isolated start were you in any position to trade Writing to anyone, particularly a Deity-level AI?

I'm not asking to troll; I've just had a look at this save, at your terrible island, and at some baffling decisions, and I literally cannot figure out how you won this game.

Delayed bronze working #2: Deity isolated

Warlord

Attachments

Will SIP

Warlord

Enter: The VAIKE!

Warlord

Deity

Tactician

Warlord

Prince

Warlord

Deity

Warlord

Attachments

Emperor

Democratia gladii

Settler

Warlord

Warlord

reluctant warrior

Chieftain

Enter: The VAIKE!

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